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Model 3 - range
- Thread starter Archerfield
- Start date
Which is really quite mad, we have people here spending £80k+ on a new LR Raven S, but even in that our hybrid Lexus will be cruising past at lane 3 M way speeds in winter with no issues!
Am sorry that's the kind of ridiculous mind set which brings so much hate to EVs.
Spending £50k+ on a car that needs to stop on a 200 mile trip in winter when a £500 combustion car can do it non stop??
That in my book isn't 'perform very well on long trips'.
Being accepting of a 5 minute charging stop on a 200 mile winter trip is mad and brings hate to EVs?
Seems like a small price to pay to have the option of using renewable energy for transportation, having no tailpipe emissions, generating significant “fuel” savings and driving one of the most exciting vehicles on the road (your opinion may vary).
I did around 650 miles yesterday in 14 hours with 5 supercharger stops. It’s so much less efficient than my other ICE cars and I can’t carry on drinking this amount of coffee on a daily basis.
It’s significantly more efficient than your ICE cars, just not when it comes to travel time. ICE car is lucky to get 50 MPG. Tesla Model 3 is around 140 MPGe. Even with the winter range hit, it’s close to 100 MPGe.
But I’ll agree that 600 mile trips take a noticeable amount of additional time in cold weather compared to an ICE car. For me, that’s a compromise I’m willing to make in order to be fossil fuel free. Your priorities may be different.
Do you really drive 650 miles on a daily basis?
My normal drive is 70 miles a day and the Tesla is ideal. For the longer journey (about one a fortnight) I’ll be in a less efficient (mpg wise) ICE but expect to save about 5 hours of my own time.
getting home at 9pm as opposed to 2am makes a massive difference
If you have the option then that's not unreasonable, to avoid the resultant compromises, but so long as you are aware of the winter range issues it is relatively easy to plan for an extra stop in most cases.
Those of us with the shorter range cars ... have shorter range. Clearly even the cheapest ICE car is ultimately going to win on range (whatever the weather). I didn't buy my EV believing that it would be a better option to ICE in all circumstances, but it's better in so many other ways. I also kept our small ICE car (hardly used) until I can be sure I can go fully electric so have that option too. If people running EVs means fewer kids in A&E with acute asthma attacks and the atmospheric CO2 also being moderated then, for me, that trumps the current range concerns.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I disagree with the comments here about heaters etc. using up significant range on long Winter trips. There is the possibility that my Model-S experience, through 3 winters, may not translate to Model-3.
For a SHORT journey then all bets are off for consumption. That is not the same as, nor relevant to, consumption assumptions for max-range / long journeys
For a long journey in Winter, and having pre-conditioned the car before I set off, I have about 10% reduction on long Winter trips (e.g. driving SOC 100% down to 20% or lower) compared to Summer. Winter, for me down South, is temperatures averaging around 5C
Even with preconditioning (on shore-power) the car will still have had reduced regen, I have not found any way to precondition such that the battery is actually at driving-temperature, so I still have some set-off-penalty, just "reduced" if I pre-condition on shore power
My winter journeys are dual carriageway at 70 MPH. In practice my average speed shows lower than that due to traffic / roadworks. The energy consumption for heater is not a significant consumption at 70 MPH (it is a significant consumption at 20-30 MPH, but doing max-range at that speed will take forever ... so the two are usually mutually exclusive). I don't wear a thick coat and a bubble hat when I'm driving but I may knock the heater down a degree or two - but typically not below 21C
Ambient temperatures 0C, or lower, will have more impact. I have very few journeys that were that cold, so no useful data to share.
Wet is a different thing altogether. Summer or Winter then heavy rain makes a huge difference (20% easily). Slowing down doesn't help much, still the same amount of water to push out of the way mile-after-mile. Same is true of ICE of course, just less noticeable with a Big Fuel Tank.
I suggest trying your journey in A Better Route Planner - even just using "ideal" summer conditions for your model. Would be interesting to compare that with your actual; you could also set Winter Temperature, Wet and Wind to get a prediction figure matching your actual conditions. Your 150 mile journey is a reasonable length. If you were not able to pre-condition (on shore-power) before setting off, and the battery was cold (parked outside rather than in garage, and stopped for long enough to get down to ambient temperatures, and ambient was 0C-ish, or had been down that low (e.g. overnight, even if ambient increases during the day the battery won't be warming as quickly as the air does), then the set-off energy penalty will be huge If you have to stop on your journey, for an hour or more, you will have the full "cold set off energy penalty" each time, as the battery will get cold-soaked again
Plugging into 13Amp, before departure, and charging the battery for an hour (and the cabin for 15 minutes or so) should help a fair bit.
I expect you know this, but if you select Energy : Trip (after putting destination into SatNav or, if at Supercharger and still showing that location as "current" then press "Continue journey" to get next leg), that will show predicted energy on arrival at destination. That is not going to take into account weather on the next leg, so you need to allow for that ... apologies if you know about that, if not it might be worth a try, so that you set off from Supercharger with a prediction of arrival SOC that you want to achieve, and then during the journey you can see if the predicted arrival energy is getting dangerously low and slow down, or add a charging stop.
I would also recommend checking ABRP for long journeys (setting anticipated weather etc.) and making a note of the departure SOC %ages for the various stops. Of course if you have regular trips you will become familiar with what you need in practice.
That sort of journey is definitely the scenario where larger battery helps:
More miles until need to charge (obviously )
Less likelihood of needing to charge above 80% - which is dramatically slower than 10% -70%
Faster charging (generally speaking larger batteries charge faster, either just more-cells-in-parallel or in some cases larger battery model charges at high voltage and so on)
Possibility of "choice" of chargers, that greater range brings, so on occasions ability to get to a further, more suitable, charger
Snap. I've now moved to Raven MS which solves all the trips that I used to take Backup-ICE on, so I can now ditch that for a backup-EV instead
For a SHORT journey then all bets are off for consumption. That is not the same as, nor relevant to, consumption assumptions for max-range / long journeys
For a long journey in Winter, and having pre-conditioned the car before I set off, I have about 10% reduction on long Winter trips (e.g. driving SOC 100% down to 20% or lower) compared to Summer. Winter, for me down South, is temperatures averaging around 5C
Even with preconditioning (on shore-power) the car will still have had reduced regen, I have not found any way to precondition such that the battery is actually at driving-temperature, so I still have some set-off-penalty, just "reduced" if I pre-condition on shore power
My winter journeys are dual carriageway at 70 MPH. In practice my average speed shows lower than that due to traffic / roadworks. The energy consumption for heater is not a significant consumption at 70 MPH (it is a significant consumption at 20-30 MPH, but doing max-range at that speed will take forever
... so the two are usually mutually exclusive). I don't wear a thick coat and a bubble hat when I'm driving but I may knock the heater down a degree or two - but typically not below 21CAmbient temperatures 0C, or lower, will have more impact. I have very few journeys that were that cold, so no useful data to share.
Wet is a different thing altogether. Summer or Winter then heavy rain makes a huge difference (20% easily). Slowing down doesn't help much, still the same amount of water to push out of the way mile-after-mile. Same is true of ICE of course, just less noticeable with a Big Fuel Tank.
I suggest trying your journey in A Better Route Planner - even just using "ideal" summer conditions for your model. Would be interesting to compare that with your actual; you could also set Winter Temperature, Wet and Wind to get a prediction figure matching your actual conditions. Your 150 mile journey is a reasonable length. If you were not able to pre-condition (on shore-power) before setting off, and the battery was cold (parked outside rather than in garage, and stopped for long enough to get down to ambient temperatures, and ambient was 0C-ish, or had been down that low (e.g. overnight, even if ambient increases during the day the battery won't be warming as quickly as the air does), then the set-off energy penalty will be huge
If you have to stop on your journey, for an hour or more, you will have the full "cold set off energy penalty" each time, as the battery will get cold-soaked againPlugging into 13Amp, before departure, and charging the battery for an hour (and the cabin for 15 minutes or so) should help a fair bit.
I expect you know this, but if you select Energy : Trip (after putting destination into SatNav or, if at Supercharger and still showing that location as "current" then press "Continue journey" to get next leg), that will show predicted energy on arrival at destination. That is not going to take into account weather on the next leg, so you need to allow for that ... apologies if you know about that, if not it might be worth a try, so that you set off from Supercharger with a prediction of arrival SOC that you want to achieve, and then during the journey you can see if the predicted arrival energy is getting dangerously low and slow down, or add a charging stop.
I would also recommend checking ABRP for long journeys (setting anticipated weather etc.) and making a note of the departure SOC %ages for the various stops. Of course if you have regular trips you will become familiar with what you need in practice.
That sort of journey is definitely the scenario where larger battery helps:
More miles until need to charge (obviously
)Less likelihood of needing to charge above 80% - which is dramatically slower than 10% -70%
Faster charging (generally speaking larger batteries charge faster, either just more-cells-in-parallel or in some cases larger battery model charges at high voltage and so on)
Possibility of "choice" of chargers, that greater range brings, so on occasions ability to get to a further, more suitable, charger
Snap. I've now moved to Raven MS which solves all the trips that I used to take Backup-ICE on, so I can now ditch that for a backup-EV instead
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
It occurs to me that:
Model-S is, say, 3 miles per kWh and model-3, say, 4 miles per kWh.
At 70 MPH the heater in Model-3 is therefore a bigger portion than Model-S
Also possible that insulation on Model-S is better in some way ... more surface area to lose heat though.
Model-S is, say, 3 miles per kWh and model-3, say, 4 miles per kWh.
At 70 MPH the heater in Model-3 is therefore a bigger portion than Model-S
Also possible that insulation on Model-S is better in some way ... more surface area to lose heat though.
On the journey I described the last 150 miles was straight off the A1 to the supercharger to put in around 200 miles of charge to get to 250.
Is there anything I could have done in that scenario to improve the range prior to charging?
Is there anything I could have done in that scenario to improve the range prior to charging?
Being accepting of a 5 minute charging stop on a 200 mile winter trip is mad and brings hate to EVs?
To some that's not acceptable, especially for extra cost associated with EVs.
Ignoring the limitations of EVs absolutely bring hate towards EVs, as it simply reinforces the belief that EV owners are all nutters with too much cash spare, whom will use every excuses possible to justify their car choice.
5 hours seems like a bit of a stretch. In my own experience, a 650 mile trip (Washington, D.C. to Grand Rapids, MI) in a Tesla takes 1.5 to 3 hours longer (10 hours vs. up to 13) compared to our previous 2012 VW Passat TDI. That's still a significant amount of additional time, but not 50% more unless you're charging at 50 kW CHAdeMO chargers instead of Tesla Superchargers.
I agree with @Big Earl. Those who have serious winter weather (E.g. Nirway, Canada) and many EV drivers are well accustomed to the vagaries of cold, moisture, and hills/mountains, not to mention prevailing winds. People who are aircraft pilots usually know how to adjust for those factors. Other people, not so much.
After five years of Tesla driving under widely varying conditions it has become second nature for me. Decades as an airplane pilot made me automatically check weather (temperatures, winds, precipitation). Unlike flying nobody really prepares Tesla drivers to understand these things. Everyone goes through a learning curve. While considering this post, my spouse reminded me that my first year Tesla driving and first year piloting were irritating similar. She said I had “...a constant panic about running out of fuel and locating the nearest fuel...”
As a long-time all season U.K. commuter (Bayswater-Northampton for me) I think the only real solution for wet/winter is three things:
First: full charge prior to departure, including cabin heating/cooling prior to disconnection. Second, stop for a top up charge.using a coffee, phone calls and/or bio break as an excuse. Motorway charging is now convenient so that really is easier than it sounds. Third, after the first two you can drive just as if it were an ICE, but have more fun doing it.
After my five years I find those things make long drives easier than they were when I formerly did not stop. Following a >400 mile drive I am relaxed and prepared for more. The same in an ICE was marginally quicker but I was very tired at the end even in a BMW 535i/Jaguar XK8, my final two ICE’s for such trips.
Before giving up on long Tesla road trips, please try these tips.
A final anecdote. Two years ago I drove a Tesla S70 from San Francisco to Atlanta for a friend. There were Superchargers, but not so many as now. I still drove a steady 90 MPH in Wyoming (high altitudes, WIND, cold, rain/snow). Of course range suffered, but, stopping every 1 1/2 hours reduced the pressure of all the nasty weather, heavy lorry/truck traffic etc. My personal axiom remains to drive normally and stop more frequently whenever speed or weather increase stress. That actually reduces range anxiety too. OTOH, my BEV rule is to buy the maximum range I can afford, that inherited from my airplane-buying rule of long ago.
I don't think anyone in this thread is ignoring the limitations and compromises associated with EV ownership. I'm making reasonable observations about trip time and charging expectations.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Sorry, you are quite right, I hadn't taken that into account. So you were at "zero set off penalty" for the final leg. Actually the Supercharger should have warmed your battery "more than normal" so you were probably in better state at set off.
I'd still be interested in a comparison with ABRP
I had a go for Raven. (Glasgow, Derby, Edinburgh. Driving time calculated as 09:03)
20C no wind / rain
00:24 Stoke-on-Trent Southbound
00:23 Scotch Corner
09:51 total
5C, 5MPH wind, rain (not heavy)
00:05 Penrith-Tebay (in order to get to Stoke-on-Trent no lower than 10%, in practice I would expect traffic / roadworks would mean this stop wasn't needed, so that's 5 mins for the stop and 5 mins in-out would be saved)
00:32 Stoke-on-Trent Southbound
00:31 Scotch Corner
10:20 total
When you have V3 Superchargers ( I am lucky enough to have used several) you’d find that in a Model 3 or new S/X you’d have little time to wait while charging. Twice on a recent trip I had to disconnect prior to completing the requisite ablutions/personal refueling. I have not yet compared trip times, but I am certain that V3 will reduce stop times significantly. Once they are ubiquitous DC to Grand Rapids I wonder how much time you’d save? OTOH on routes like yours and many in the U.K. dense commercial traffic on large parts of the route can actually tend to increase efficiency because speeds reduce. Not fun for driving, but autopilot really helps. I used to drive often between NYC and a tiny burg near Battle Creek, shorter than your trip. I’d have had a life transformed had I had autopilot. Everywhere the combination of autopilot and frequent tip-off charges make trips easier and less tiring. It’s not only about longer range!
Agreed 100%. The 150 kW update improved trip times significantly and put us at the point where the car is almost always done charging* before we're done with our bio break. I'm looking forward to using V3 chargers in 2020.
*sufficient charge to reach our next Supercharger stop, which is usually between 60 and 70% state of charge.
ME_UK
Member
That 100.1% run was 215 Wh/m, my worst was a 75% run at 290 Wh/m. The only two significant differences in the two are the avg temp outside 12.0 vs 6.3 and fan off on the first, on on the second...got to love TeslaFi
