Making Teslas do V2H and/or V2G

[wwu123]

On V2G, V2L etc..... What Would Elon Do. WWDO Tesla developing bi-directional charging feature 'many people' won't use. He has spoken and as always, he makes sense out of nonsense. Here are his words. "
“I mean, if you have a Powerwall that can take the house load, then you can use your car as a supplementary energy source to the Powerwall. And then, you’re not going to drive anyone crazy by unplugging your car and having the house go off.

“So I think there’s some value there as a supplemental energy source down the road. Where if you have a Powerwall, you’ve not diminished the convenience of the people in the house.”

So to translate, he's saying, look, if you buy my stationary car today for the same price (2x Powerwalls after installation) as my upcoming Model 2, it will work better for V2H/V2G, because you can't drive it away. Sure, my stationary car has only 1/3 the range/capacity of the Model 2, but it won't be an issue, because it has no wheel, nor seats!

And then you can supplement the stationary car's V2H/V2G with an additional battery, and the bonus is, the additional battery has wheels and seats, and you can drive it around!

 

[Unclepaul]

Tesla has been accused of dragging their feet on V2Grid due to a conflict of that competing with their desire to sell PowerWalls.

I do not believe this is the case, but that they are working on the technology and legalities of providing that service for their automobile owners. They are doing a similar thing in Austrailia where Solar/Powerwall owners can sell their electricity back to the grid during times of shortage, when the power is expensive.

Tesla owners would love to be able to turn their vehicles into money makers, by selling energy back to the Utility when peak pricing is paid.

 

[kjtwist]

You're referring to "suicide cords" that backfeed power through an existing breaker. With a proper transfer switch or lockout, there is no risk to line workers - that's what they're there for.

The Ford system is expensive because it includes a home inverter. If you have a powerwall, you already have an inverter (also expensive). When I had a Lightning, I planned to use the onboard inverter and a 240v transfer switch to power most of my house with the truck. Not as seamless as the whole house inverter, but not all that expensive either.

These are nice thoughts about V2B, but they bank on people already having a robust solar setup which is not feasible in all locations. I looked into it but solar at my house would only cover about 20% of my energy usage, and that's with a gas furnace in the winter and only one EV.

 

[kjtwist]

You're referring to "suicide cords" that backfeed power through an existing breaker. With a proper transfer switch or lockout, there is no risk to line workers - that's what they're there for.

The Ford system is expensive because it includes a home inverter. If you have a powerwall, you already have an inverter (also expensive). When I had a Lightning, I planned to use the onboard inverter and a 240v transfer switch to power most of my house with the truck. Not as seamless as the whole house inverter, but not all that expensive either.

These are nice thoughts about V2B, but they bank on people already having a robust solar setup which is not feasible in all locations. I looked into it but solar at my house would only cover about 20% of my energy usage, and that's with a gas furnace in the winter and only one EV.

Right. But you're smart enough to know this.. People do stupid things when they get raw power directly from a generator or car. Fords Sunrun "extras" just to hook up to your home power is $4,000. (THAT BUYS YOU 10kWh of stationary battery power) Then you still just have an expensive home "backup" generator.

Bilateral charging is coming to Tesla in 2025. They've said that. So what will you do with the power and how can it help us live a big energy free life?

You're right, solar doesn't work easily for people living in condos, apartments and in big cities. But an ordinary, properly designed house, with the aid of the massive battery from an EV, we can go off grid easily.

Here's my off grid house in Mexico. I have 24 - 455watt panels on my roof. The house is under 2,000 sf. $10k. Small roof with solar pergola. Installed. 3 - 1 ton mini splits, water pumps, refrigerator, washer dryer, dishwasher, air fryer, induction cook top etc....40kWh batteries @ $1500/5kWh x 8=$12,000. Expensive....

8k hybrid inverter, with built in charge controller, only $2500. Runs great for 3 years so far. I have 2 AC running 24/7 unless unless it rains for 3 straight days....sorry Seattle. But when it rains, its cooler so no need for AC.

Ideal hook up. 10 kWh batteries ($3,000) with bilateral connected 100 kWh battery parked under my house at night. Tapping into my cars massive battery saved me $9,000 cost of extra batteries. Now, 240 or 120 volt AC from car connected to my batteries via $700 Meanwell 3200 watt DBU 48 volt programmable charger, with wifi controlled on/off relay ( <$100) feeding 10kWh batteries. No other fancy electronics needed. Done deal.. No need for power company. The car acts like an extention to my stationary battery, like a 3200 watt trickle charger. 10kWh battery is topped off, always. They'll last 40 years. I'll never need more power than that to live comfortably, and can drive my car away, when ever I want to and still have power in my house.

 

[beatle]

Right. But you're smart enough to know this.. People do stupid things when they get raw power directly from a generator or car. Fords Sunrun "extras" just to hook up to your home power is $4,000. (THAT BUYS YOU 10kWh of stationary battery power) Then you still just have an expensive home "backup" generator.

Just because people do stupid things with generators or powerful inverters doesn't mean doing things properly and to code is stupid. The $4k cost you mention is simply not needed if you just want to provide 240v 30a to the house via a compatible transfer switch. The truck has the inverter already. Buying a Lightning just for the inverter is silly; it's an auxiliary benefit of the truck as a vehicle. Including wiring, you can do a compatible transfer switch for under $1k, perhaps less. I'm not sure what you mean by 10kwh. The Lightning, for example, has a 100 or 130kwh battery, but even a Model 3 has a lot of juice to power a moderately sized home for a while if you're judicious with usage and have decent insulation.

 

[tmoz]

Right. But you're smart enough to know this.. People do stupid things when they get raw power directly from a generator or car. Fords Sunrun "extras" just to hook up to your home power is $4,000. (THAT BUYS YOU 10kWh of stationary battery power) Then you still just have an expensive home "backup" generator.

Bilateral charging is coming to Tesla in 2025. They've said that. So what will you do with the power and how can it help us live a big energy free life?

You're right, solar doesn't work easily for people living in condos, apartments and in big cities. But an ordinary, properly designed house, with the aid of the massive battery from an EV, we can go off grid easily.

Here's my off grid house in Mexico. I have 24 - 455watt panels on my roof. The house is under 2,000 sf. $10k. Small roof with solar pergola. Installed. 3 - 1 ton mini splits, water pumps, refrigerator, washer dryer, dishwasher, air fryer, induction cook top etc....40kWh batteries @ $1500/5kWh x 8=$12,000. Expensive....

8k hybrid inverter, with built in charge controller, only $2500. Runs great for 3 years so far. I have 2 AC running 24/7 unless unless it rains for 3 straight days....sorry Seattle. But when it rains, its cooler so no need for AC.

Ideal hook up. 10 kWh batteries ($3,000) with bilateral connected 100 kWh battery parked under my house at night. Tapping into my cars massive battery saved me $9,000 cost of extra batteries. Now, 240 or 120 volt AC from car connected to my batteries via $700 Meanwell 3200 watt DBU 48 volt programmable charger, with wifi controlled on/off relay ( <$100) feeding 10kWh batteries. No other fancy electronics needed. Done deal.. No need for power company. The car acts like an extention to my stationary battery, like a 3200 watt trickle charger. 10kWh battery is topped off, always. They'll last 40 years. I'll never need more power than that to live comfortably, and can drive my car away, when ever I want to and still have power in my house.

I've got 10.6 kW on my roof - 27 * 0.395 kW/panel with a 10 kWh battery. In Az, power is quite cheap. It will take me 20+ years to recoup the investment if power rates do not increase faster than inflation. If I include earnings I could be making on the money spent on solar, I will never breakeven. But the satisfaction of reducing my dependence on the grid is worth the cost to me.

Not many installers have the knowledge to hook up a system such as yours. Mine didn't even have the knowledge to hook up mine and after 3 months, finally admitted they had to hire a 3rd party person to hook it up.

 

[kjtwist]

Just because people do stupid things with generators or powerful inverters doesn't mean doing things properly and to code is stupid. The $4k cost you mention is simply not needed if you just want to provide 240v 30a to the house via a compatible transfer switch. The truck has the inverter already. Buying a Lightning just for the inverter is silly; it's an auxiliary benefit of the truck as a vehicle. Including wiring, you can do a compatible transfer switch for under $1k, perhaps less. I'm not sure what you mean by 10kwh. The Lightning, for example, has a 100 or 130kwh battery, but even a Model 3 has a lot of juice to power a moderately sized home for a while if you're judicious with usage and have decent insulation.

Never said doing things to code is stupid so don't follow your reply. $4K is the Ford cost, on their website, to do it the Ford way. I would never buy a Lightning. Can't tow anything very far with it.

You can buy a 10kWh lithium solar battery pack, all day long for under $4k. You don't have to buy a 13.5 kWh Powerwall to go Off Grid if you can utilize you EV's power, everyday. What don't you understand about a 10kWh lithium battery pack?

Everybody seems programmed to think of using their EV as some kind of back up source when the grid goes down or the V2H crowd that sees them as a tool for power companies to store and use, "your" power, paying you for wholesale power. Musk has been clear. Dumb idea..... and I think he's right. Thats all.Thats what I've been saying. My point is about the ability of people to get rid off a power companies grid entirely if a house is designed properly, with adequate solar on the roof or backyard, adequate home stationary solar battery and the EV as a supplement to that power. I don't want to run my house for 3 days from my car when the power goes off in a storm. I want it to be used everyday as part of a system. An EV, the Folks wagon of the future, can allow people to do it, affordably leveraging the investment of your necessary car investment. This requires an entirely different way of viewing bilateral charging. You want to use you EV to power your house when you loose power? Have at it. Easy peasy ...not what I've been talking about.

Here's Toyotas idea in action. EV to home storage battery. It a new eco system. Not V2G and not just an expensive, underutilized back up generator for stormy days. Toyota Releases Storage Battery System for Residential Use Based on Electrified Vehicle Battery Technology | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website. Mitsubishi almost grasped the idea in 2019 but was slightly off the mark.

Follow these links and then you'll begin to understand Musks thoughts on V2G.

 

[beatle]

Never said doing things to code is stupid so don't follow your reply. $4K is the Ford cost, on their website, to do it the Ford way. I would never buy a Lightning. Can't tow anything very far with it.

You can buy a 10kWh lithium solar battery pack, all day long for under $4k. You don't have to buy a 13.5 kWh Powerwall to go Off Grid if you can utilize you EV's power, everyday. What don't you understand about a 10kWh lithium battery pack?

Everybody seems programmed to think of using their EV as some kind of back up source when the grid goes down or the V2H crowd that sees them as a tool for power companies to store and use, "your" power, paying you for wholesale power. Musk has been clear. Dumb idea..... and I think he's right. Thats all.Thats what I've been saying. My point is about the ability of people to get rid off a power companies grid entirely if a house is designed properly, with adequate solar on the roof or backyard, adequate home stationary solar battery and the EV as a supplement to that power. I don't want to run my house for 3 days from my car when the power goes off in a storm. I want it to be used everyday as part of a system. An EV, the Folks wagon of the future, can allow people to do it, affordably leveraging the investment of your necessary car investment. This requires an entirely different way of viewing bilateral charging. You want to use you EV to power your house when you loose power? Have at it. Easy peasy ...not what I've been talking about.

Here's Toyotas idea in action. EV to home storage battery. It a new eco system. Not V2G and not just an expensive, underutilized back up generator for stormy days. Toyota Releases Storage Battery System for Residential Use Based on Electrified Vehicle Battery Technology | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website. Mitsubishi almost grasped the idea in 2019 but was slightly off the mark.

Follow these links and then you'll begin to understand Musks thoughts on V2G.

You said, "People do stupid things when they get raw power directly from a generator or car." My point is that getting power from an EV is not stupid. You seem uneducated about the Lightning's capabilities to provide power. It is not limited to the $4k home inverter. The truck has a 240v 30A circuit with its own inverter - much like you'd find on a larger portable generator. A transfer switch to connect it to is an order of magnitude cheaper than the inverter setup. I disagree with you and Musk that this is a dumb idea. You're obviously very enamored with your own setup, but not everyone will buy or should buy solar and a separate home battery. Ford gave people a choice as everyone's needs, budget, and homes are different. This is not a "my way or the highway" situation as much as you'd like it to be.

 

[kjtwist]

So to translate, he's saying, look, if you buy my stationary car today for the same price (2x Powerwalls after installation) as my upcoming Model 2, it will work better for V2H/V2G, because you can't drive it away. Sure, my stationary car has only 1/3 the range/capacity of the Model 2, but it won't be an issue, because it has no wheel, nor seats!

And then you can supplement the stationary car's V2H/V2G with an additional battery, and the bonus is, the additional battery has wheels and seats, and you can drive it around!

Yea. Something like that. From what Musk has said, It appears that Tesla will be adding bilateral charging to their cars by 2025. It just won't look like the V2G crowd is expecting. It appears that you will need a powerwall to take
advantage of this. What might this look like?

Current Tesla cars power controllers do not allow AC to be exported out from the car. We can all agree on that. However they may allow DC to be exported, right now! Follow this guys analysis of Tesla car internal "gateway".

Diodes prevent AC from bilateral exiting the car but there may be a loophole with DC power being exported. No diodes to prevent this. A big maybe....

In Musk's ideal world this DC power from the car could be channeled to a Tesla Solar Inverter, then to an AC coupled Powerwall. Or a new Powerwall Plus, which already handles direct DC input with its built in string inverter. This would be a more efficient DC/DC conversion. You're now free to do whatever you like with stored DC power. Use it or sell it.

Powerwall System Design | Tesla Support

When designing your system, Tesla will recommend the number of Powerwall units needed to back up your entire home (whole home backup). This means that during a power outage, your Powerwall system would be able to support all your appliances.

www.tesla.com

For all we know, all Tesla cars already have DC bilateral abilities. You'll just need a powerwall plus with new software to use it.

Time to forget the idea of plugging your home air conditioner/critical AC loads directly into your Tesla, as Ford would like you to do. Its never going to happen.

A Tesla home becomes more fully integrated with Solar, Vehicle and Stationary stored powerwalls. The alternative energy world of the future is stored DC powering AC loads. The biggest batteries also have wheels!

 

[kjtwist]

You said, "People do stupid things when they get raw power directly from a generator or car." My point is that getting power from an EV is not stupid. You seem uneducated about the Lightning's capabilities to provide power. It is not limited to the $4k home inverter. The truck has a 240v 30A circuit with its own inverter - much like you'd find on a larger portable generator. A transfer switch to connect it to is an order of magnitude cheaper than the inverter setup. I disagree with you and Musk that this is a dumb idea. You're obviously very enamored with your own setup, but not everyone will buy or should buy solar and a separate home battery. Ford gave people a choice as everyone's needs, budget, and homes are different. This is not a "my way or the highway" situation as much as you'd like it to be.

I agree. Getting power from an EV is not stupid. Its brilliant. Buy a Ford if you want temporary AC power, like you'd get from a portable generator. But if your looking for a holistic permanent way to provide power to your home buy a Tesla with a Powerwall Plus with bilateral capabilities coming soon. Ford Lightnings are a temporary solution to the energy problem. Occasional blackouts, storms, worksite power. Great. Cheaper? More efficient? Hardly. With battery and Tesla car prices dropping, thanks to improved battery technologies, a Tesla with DC to DC bilateral charging of a home battery storage system will cost less than a Ford F150 Lightning with it 4-5,000 dollar install or even a simplified transfer switch and you can drive away and still have power to your home. In a Musk vs Ford scenario in the EV fueled world of the future its a temporary vs permanent choice. And solar panels are getting cheaper every year. I love my Ford 351 Windsor powering my old ski boat but I think Ford is missing the boat on the bigger energy picture.

 

[wooter]

The folks at PIONIX did some testing with opensource EVerest and some AC and DC hardware, and got Tesla's to decharge over DC:

⚡ The Surprising Truth About Bidirectional Charging in Today’s EVs.

5 minute weekly newsletter that brings you EV news highlights, insights and analysis. #electricavenue #ev #evcharging #emobility

www.readelectricavenue.com

 

[Smurfturf]

I'm hoping entelligent's new dc to dc fast charger will allow me to use my Tesla's battery to run my home in an emergency. Here's the link: Enteligent . I think this taps into the 400v Tesla DC battery and then the charger apparently ties into the 400v DC busbar of a hybrid inverter. I have two sol-ark 12k's, so as long as my Tesla's don't have something that impedes this charger, I should be able to do bi directional charging at 400v DC and my inverters handle any conversion needed. I have a ccs1 adapter and both of my Tesla's are capable of using it. Does anyone know of a reason why V2G or V2H would not work in this scenario?

 

[FL_and_Austin]

I built a portable V2G for any Tesla. Here are my parts list.
1 3000-6000 watt pure sine wave inverter with 36V input ~ $300
4 36V ebay batteries (LiFePO4) barely used pulled from industry that must replace them on periodic basis (hospital, military)
1 bestek 200 watt pure sinewave 12v inverter ~50

Usage notes:
-The system trickle charges the 4 banks of 36V modules
-Make sure sentry mode is on so the trickle charge is enabled
-Can run microwave
- Works just like how you flush your toilet, the watts built up slow in the 4 banks of battery modules
- Would not be good for the use case of running an AC unit continuously 24 hours since it could be out of spec unless you get a 12V DC AC ~ $400

 

[tmoz]

V2H is a long way off. Getting my solar system's battery to do backup when the grid goes down challenges my installer's ability and the ability of SolarEdge to get it to work. Getting a battery with your solar panels takes many installers an extra month to 3 months to get running. There may be some installers that have no problem doing this, but it takes extra knowledge. So V2H/V2G is going to be a slow ramp from my observations (which yes, is not a very good scientific random unbiased sample of the entire country).

 

[miimura]

I'm hoping entelligent's new dc to dc fast charger will allow me to use my Tesla's battery to run my home in an emergency. Here's the link: Enteligent . I think this taps into the 400v Tesla DC battery and then the charger apparently ties into the 400v DC busbar of a hybrid inverter. I have two sol-ark 12k's, so as long as my Tesla's don't have something that impedes this charger, I should be able to do bi directional charging at 400v DC and my inverters handle any conversion needed. I have a ccs1 adapter and both of my Tesla's are capable of using it. Does anyone know of a reason why V2G or V2H would not work in this scenario?

read the linked page in the post directly above yours. It states that the tested Tesla vehicle cuts off discharge after 5kWh is drawn out. Hyundai/Kia and Polestar vehicles have no limitations. Most German vehicles tested have short time limits for discharging.