Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[Canuck]

Most of us here want Telsa to succeed with their integrity intact. As if their integrity is questioned, or is not intact, they in all likelihood will fail.

There's no company, or person for that matter, that has absolute integrity. It's an impossibility. We, and all companies, lack integrity in some aspect. The unfortunate part is that it's people and companies with the least amount of integrity that often succeed, sometimes spectacularly.

I'm not making excuses, just pointing out facts. I don't think Tesla did anything wrong. My take is that none of us would be driving these cars if it wasn't for grandiose and excessively ambitious thinking. That type of attitude leads to exaggeration. It's reaching for the stars (or at least Mars). It's no surprise that Elon Musk loves this false ad:

Elon Musk Loves This Tesla Ad, Even Though It's Fake

"Musk, the company’s founder and chief product architect, was so impressed with the unsolicited work that he tweeted a link to the YouTube video and said he would likely hire the creative firm for future projects."

That tells it all. He loves 'false' advertising. Elon Musk, and those like him running Tesla, say all sorts of crazy stuff about this car but their intent, in my opinion, is never to deceive. Their brains are running like a kid in the candy store but without those brains we'd all be driving our Leafs that go nowhere, or our hybrids or ICE. It's unfortunate since the product is so great as is, it doesn't need to be hyped. The fact is Tesla is full of hype, and they need to change that, but the bottom line is that they have created a product that is extremely exceptional and a complete game changer. Unfortunately, you have to take the good with the bad in this world. No company will ever "succeed with their integrity intact". Nor will they "in all likelihood... fail" by lacking in integrity.

We all lack integrity in some respect. It's just a fact of life. Maybe Musk can build a utopian society on Mars where there will be no lack of integrity. Even though that's impossible, he might just hype it as that.

 

[jpet]

Where I live its not even remotely possible to reach these battery limits of a P85(+) you mention here and stay out of jail. So here the P85(+) needs a track to get those limitations. Not many bought the car for track driving.

I agree with the valid points you are making, Darthy, but I would like to add the perspective from owners in Belgium (and I should add The Netherlands and Germany).

We, Belgian owners, are very close to Germany and are able to legally drive the car at its max speed on parts of the German Autobahn.
On the Autobahn it is normal to cruise a car at speeds of 100 mph and above and it is almost impossible not to reach the cars limitations under these conditions.
So we have a different view on things compared to owners in the US or other countries.
For us 0 to 60 mph acceleration is important but we also care about top speed and high speed performance.

A couple of days after receiving the car it was clear to me it did not have the power I expected (given the 700 hp benchmark figure on Tesla's website). It also topped out at 130 mph which was not the top speed it was advertised at.

But, Tesla was working on software updates for torque sleep, higher top speed and better performance (better than anyone had experienced outside Tesla).
We completely trusted Tesla to make things right, given time, as they had always done in the past.

And Tesla did make things right on almost every point except performance at higher speeds.

The good news is that there is a solution: the ludicrous upgrade. It's not perfect, but comes close.
The bad news is that the upgrade is priced ludicrously and this is very badly perceived by a group of P85D owners that expected their insane car to be able to achieve 700 hp peak power.

The car is still great but in the eyes of an important group of P85D owners, Tesla over promised and under delivered.

 

[brianman]

Tesla likely asked themselves a very simple question: If we post 550hp (or whatever the Ludicrous power is) for the P85D/P90D would this satisfy the people complaining about the 691hp rating on the P85D previously?

Horsepower: From a shareholder and future buyer perspective, this would solve it for me. I would expect such a post to provide different numbers for Insane and Ludicrous (and perhaps different numbers for 85 kWh and 90 kWh).

Rollout inconsistency across the product line is the other half of the problem.

 

[brianman]

.... not deranged with anger when the P85+ fell on its face after a lap or two on the track or sustained spirited driving (or even high speed for a short amount of time)? ....

The "acceleration limiter" issue has been discussed in depth -- even before the + came out, IIRC. I wouldn't use the word "deranged with anger" to describe either situation. Not really clear on the relevance here.

 

[lolachampcar]

Ok, Brian.

I can give the other guys a pass but not you.

It is relevant because a long range BeV is not an ICE but then you know that. If you are going to complain about the car not doing something with respect to power then the inability to deliver for anything more than a short period of time is just as relevant as the inability to deliver peak numbers. The people that are complaining about lack of hp are actually complaining about the inability of the system to deliver high power levels at higher vehicle speeds (which is an inability to deliver higher power levels for extended periods of time) in addition to maximum available battery power. Acceleration at higher speeds are much more demanding on the pack then the lower speeds.

You are also smart enough to know that Tesla is not likely to change the battery to the extent that the PD could produce 700ish horsepower for anything over an instant. For all I know, system capacitance is sufficient to allow an instantanious 700ish horsepower on the PD. There may even be a scenerio where you could see this on a dyno. I simply do not care as it is of no importance to me nor does the ability to put an number up on a machine for an instant have any bearing on the performance of the car on the road. The car was advertised with a certain level of performance as spelled out by the real world performance of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Tesla delivered that level of performance. Lastly, if you are hung up on roll out and do not understand that the only way you can compare a Corvette (insert your choice here) to the PD is using roll out then you should not be making such comparisons.

This is page after page after page of talk about a no problem - problem. Sure, if you want to be hyper critical then you can point to Musk's over enthusiastic hyping of MS but this hardly rises to the level of bad faith behavior nor is it new behavior for Musk or Tesla.

My comments are based on activity in the US. I simply do not know enough about how things were/are handled in Europe to comment one way or the other.

 

[sorka]

In a false advertisement lawsuit, Mazda and Ford would lose because their cars actually lost power compared to when it was advertised (even under their own rating systems) so their claims were factually false (not just misleading). In Tesla's case, it would be a mismatch between consumer expectations vs what they advertised, but Tesla did not set out using a factually false statement. They can still lose if it is demonstrated enough consumers were misled, but that would depend on surveys..

No, Tesla advertised 691 hp. Period. If they meant something other than actual horsepower, they didn't clarify that anywhere in the advertising literature. Saying they certified using R85 in the owners manual doesn't get them off the hook for misleading consumers. Saying that "motor power" should have been understood by the consumer wouldn't fly either. Without that being clarified or defined, consumers will and did assume it meant horsepower at the motors.

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Ok, so why is it that the "we were duped" crowed was not deranged with anger when the P85+ fell on its face after a lap or two on the track or sustained spirited driving (or even high speed for a short amount of time)? The car is incapable of generating more than say 100 hp in this mode thus clearly not the horsepower advertised. Could it be that we all understood that BeVs designed for reasonable range can not support high discharge rates for anything other than short periods of time?

I see this whole motor horsepower brew ha ha in exactly the same light.

If someone bought a P85 to take on a road course, it seems reasonable that they'd be able to legitimately take issue with the fact that the power train cooling system is not sufficient for sustained high power output.

I wouldn't be one of those. I would have been happy of the P85D could have made 691 hp for 10 seconds at a time requiring cooldowns in-between. The P85 actually makes the horsepower it was advertised with. The P85D never comes close (480 to 555 hp depending on SOC).

Further more, as others, on the Tesla side have pointed out, there are plenty of turbocharged cars that lose well over a 100 horsepower when heat soaked on a track because their cooling systems and intercoolers were not sized for continuous high output. Those cars are still advertised at the power they actually make when their drive trains are cool at 72F (or whatever it is for SAE) and at sea level.

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It's almost like Tesla is the first company in the world to sell something with marketing speak that ends up not being 100% accurate.

69.46% - 80.31% accurate, depending on state of charge

 

[stopcrazypp]

No, Tesla advertised 691 hp. Period. If they meant something other than actual horsepower, they didn't clarify that anywhere in the advertising literature. Saying they certified using R85 in the owners manual doesn't get them off the hook for misleading consumers. Saying that "motor power" should have been understood by the consumer wouldn't fly either. Without that being clarified or defined, consumers will and did assume it meant horsepower at the motors.

No, they advertised "691 hp motor power". The use of the words "motor power" does make a difference (I'm sure their lawyers had some input on that too). Other companies don't even bother to use a similar term even when they mean the same thing as Tesla did (like Fisker for example with the Karma, which also had two motors that they added the numbers together but the car didn't make anywhere near that power).

And I'm not saying they are 100% off the hook for doing that. All I am saying is that they made a factually true statement and that I feel they did not make that statement with the intent to deceive. Even when both of that is true, it is still possible for people to be misled and Tesla wouldn't necessarily be totally blameless for that. However, in terms of false advertising that is the most mild case.

In false advertising lawsuits the hierarchy appears to be:
1) Literally False Statements (all that is needed to be demonstrated is that the statement is false; the Miata and Mustang examples fall under this)
2) Willful or Bad Faith Conduct (all that is needed to be demonstrated is that the advertiser set out to deceive the public)
3) Misleading Statements (what is needed to be demonstrated is that a significant amount of consumers were misled, this would depend on surveys)
http://www.kslaw.com/library/pdf/reichmancannady-rp.pdf

Tesla's case would fall under #3 given what we know so far.

 

[darthy001]

just wanted to cross-post a bit here for those that dont read all of these similar threads:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...in-U-S-media?p=1176778&viewfull=1#post1176778

The reference to ECE R85 is in the Manual, where it actually belongs.

I have dug up the owners manual that was on Mytesla when I ordered the car.. Thankfully I saved it as I downloaded it on my Ipad as something to pass the time with while waiting for my car to arrive.

*drumroll*

Guess what?

-NO REFERENCE TO ECE R85 what so ever.
-No reference to any form of KW-rating or HP-rating what so ever actually in the entire owners manual.


Still think I should have figured this out on my own?

 

[brianman]

(a) The people that are complaining about lack of hp are actually complaining about the inability of the system to deliver high power levels at higher vehicle speeds (which is an inability to deliver higher power levels for extended periods of time) in addition to maximum available battery power. Acceleration at higher speeds are much more demanding on the pack then the lower speeds.

(b)You are also smart enough to know that Tesla is not likely to change the battery to the extent that the PD could produce 700ish horsepower for anything over an instant. For all I know, system capacitance is sufficient to allow an instantanious 700ish horsepower on the PD. There may even be a scenerio where you could see this on a dyno. I simply do not care as it is of no importance to me nor does the ability to put an number up on a machine for an instant have any bearing on the performance of the car on the road. (c)The car was advertised with a certain level of performance as spelled out by the real world performance of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Tesla delivered that level of performance.

(a) Some are, yes.
(b) Tesla hasn't even delivered the "instant" case. If they had, then you might have a point. Until and unless they do so...
(c) ... then, no they haven't delivered the promised performance -- "not even for an instant".

 

[lolachampcar]

Take a PD and confirm the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times as others have then perhaps you will concede that they delivered the performance they indicated. I have no interest in pulling the front and rear motors, finding a very high power ultra low source impedance power source and a dyno to confirm that each motor is indeed capable of doing what Tesla says. It simply does not matter.

This whole thing is not Black or White but it is so much more White then people are painting it on these forums. The reaction is not remotely proportionate to the deed.

 

[darthy001]

The reaction is not remotely proportionate to the deed.

If the end result hadnt been a huge price difference above the 85D I would have agreed to this.

But this "minor" deed resulted in many people paying a whole lot more than they might have if the playing field had been more fair and open.. And changing measuring methods on one model only without any warning is neither fair or open.

At least to me the difference in price between a 85D and a P85D is a significant amount of cash. Thus the reaction here. The 0-100kph and 700hp claims made my inner boy go bananas

 

[WarpedOne]

There was no 700hp claim, there is/was 691 motor power claim.
And lots of poor reading comprehension I guess...

 

[Oyvind.H]

There was no 700hp claim, there is/was 691 motor power claim.
And lots of poor reading comprehension I guess...

To sum up: Tesla buyers need to bring lawyers when purchasing cars because Tesla will try to cheat people? Really?
Teslas revelation of new ways of measuring 0-60 (not used by MacLaren, not used on any other Tesla model), changing info in communication/web page, adjusting blogs after publishing etc. shows clearly that people have been mislead.

Luckily for european buyers the case is quite simple.
The car was sold with 700 peak hp, which it does not produce.
The car was sold with 3.4 0-100kph, which it`s unable to do.
Adjusting marketing info after the car is sold does not help for those who bought when the info was not correct.

 

[smac]

If the end result hadnt been a huge price difference above the 85D I would have agreed to this.

I have to admit this is really Tesla's biggest issue with the current line up. The variants are so close that product differentiation has become very difficult for them.

The 85D is such a cracking car, the P85D's IMHO doesn't stack up too well for the premium. Now if the P85D had some sort of body kit, or exclusive wheels, or ..., IOW something in addition to 0-60 times to differentiate it (e.g. BMW M cars / AMG ) the premium would be easier to swallow.

The product differentiation issue is apparent at the lower end too. The 70D is so close to the S85 for many people that Tesla felt the need to intentionally under-report EPA range

I fully understand Tesla's desire to push people up the price range in order to maintain gross margins, however it's hard to do in a transparent way when all the cars are so good!

 

[darthy001]

There was no 700hp claim, there is/was 691 motor power claim.
And lots of poor reading comprehension I guess...

Maybe you should get a better reading comprehension and understand difference between European HP and US HP first before correcting others?

HP in europe was mainly claimed as 700HP due to different HP-standard as compared to US-standard.

Example from Denmark:

 

[WarpedOne]

To sum up: Tesla buyers need to bring lawyers when purchasing cars because Tesla will try to cheat people? Really?

To repeat myself:

And lots of poor reading comprehension I guess...

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was mainly claimed as 700HP

Example from Denmark:

1. Complain to someone who understands Dutch, I don't. This is english speaking part of the forum so I'd say you misplaced your 'argument'.
2. You say mainly and bring out one single case?

 

[darthy001]

To repeat myself:



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1. Complain to someone who understands Dutch, I don't. This is english speaking part of the forum so I'd say you misplaced your 'argument'.
2. You say mainly and bring out one single case?

Cant you see the number 700 there? 700 isn't in "dutch" or even danish as is the actual language spoken in Denmark....

For someone so rude to address reading comprehension in others you are awfully quick to not wanting to read yourself...

 

[smac]

1. Complain to someone who understands Dutch, I don't. This is english speaking part of the forum so I'd say you misplaced your 'argument'.

I Believe Danish people speak Danish not Dutch.

FWIW The only Danish word I know is "ydeevne" and that's only because I read TMC

 

[MuppetOwl]

Metric system 1 hp = 736 Watts, 1hp Imperial system = 746 Watts

So that is the reason for 691 hp vs 700hp. Strange that warpedone that lives in europe did not know that :tongue:

 

[Oyvind.H]

Luckily for european buyers the case is quite simple.
The car was sold with 700 peak hp, which it does not produce.
The car was sold with 3.4 0-100kph, which it`s unable to do.
Adjusting marketing info after the car is sold does not help for those who bought when the info was not correct.

Maybe supernatural reading skills or a team of lawyers can twist the marketing info into something else. Which in turn leads to buyers feeling cheated. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.....