Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[Matias]

I see this as train derailing in slow motion. Tesla is heading for catastrophe. Eventually fertiliser will hit the fan big time.

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This is now in Finland's biggest newspaper.

Tesla-omistajat tutkivat autonsa tehoja, jotka paljastuivat luvattua pienemmiksi – Tesla antoi selityksen - Tesla - Auto - Helsingin Sanomat

Eventually this will hit the U.S mainstream media

 

[MacroP]

Eventually this will hit the U.S mainstream media

Haha - with all the VW issues going on - I doubt it. Good timing for Tesla.

 

[jpet]

As best I can tell, Tesla limits "dissemination of information" about most every possible topic, threatened law suits or not.

Indeed, that's what got them in this situation in the first place. They did not provide enough information when they advertised the car as having 691 hp motor power.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Haha - with all the VW issues going on - I doubt it. Good timing for Tesla.

I think the Model X reveal is more important. That is what all the mainstream press is focused on covering in the US at least.

 

[stopcrazypp]

One interesting fact. Matza had 9 hp (6%) less than advertised. What did they do? They bought the cars back, if owner wanted

"In the United States, Mazda erroneously quoted the power figure for the Japanese and Australian model in early catalogues. Car and Driver magazine and numerous owners confirmed the missing power, and Mazda offered to buy back the 2001 cars due to those misleading power claims. "

Mazda MX-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm reading up on all those power buyback controversies. On the Miata, it was because of changes to the engine in the USA due to emissions requirements. For the Mustang, it was because of power differences between production equipment and pre-production equipment. Neither of those cases apply to Tesla.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/23/a...-how-many-horses-it-s-torque-that-counts.html

In Tesla's case, the power difference is not because of an actual loss in power, but rather because the consumer did not understand the rating system Tesla used. In a false advertisement lawsuit, Mazda and Ford would lose because their cars actually lost power compared to when it was advertised (even under their own rating systems) so their claims were factually false (not just misleading). In Tesla's case, it would be a mismatch between consumer expectations vs what they advertised, but Tesla did not set out using a factually false statement. They can still lose if it is demonstrated enough consumers were misled, but that would depend on surveys.

That is why I disagree with those that claim a better defense for Tesla is if they claimed that they initially aimed to provide 691hp system power but failed to do so without hardware changes (Ludicrous, putting aside for a moment that Ludicrous doesn't make 691hp system power either). If they use that defense, they would lose at the start of the lawsuit because they would have been knowingly making a false statement from the start. I don't believe Tesla set out to do that in this case.

 

[lolachampcar]

Ok, so why is it that the "we were duped" crowed was not deranged with anger when the P85+ fell on its face after a lap or two on the track or sustained spirited driving (or even high speed for a short amount of time)? The car is incapable of generating more than say 100 hp in this mode thus clearly not the horsepower advertised. Could it be that we all understood that BeVs designed for reasonable range can not support high discharge rates for anything other than short periods of time?

I see this whole motor horsepower brew ha ha in exactly the same light.

 

[darthy001]

Ok, so why is it that the "we were duped" crowed was not deranged with anger when the P85+ fell on its face after a lap or two on the track or sustained spirited driving (or even high speed for a short amount of time)? The car is incapable of generating more than say 100 hp in this mode thus clearly not the horsepower advertised. Could it be that we all understood that BeVs designed for reasonable range can not support high discharge rates for anything other than short periods of time?

I see this whole motor horsepower brew ha ha in exactly the same light.

Thats not even remotely the same and you know it.

-The P85(+) does deliver the advertised HP or even more at the battery and in testing. No hokus pokus with motor power or anything.
-The P85(+) does deliver on advertised 0-100kph. No hidden use of roll-out or any such nonsense(at least nonsense in europe ) It actually goes ZERO to 100kph in the advertised time or even faster...

Just as an ICE does at some rpm deliver a peak HP the P85(+) and all other Models S except the P85D/P90D does deliver the full HP at some point in the rev-range.

Where I live its not even remotely possible to reach these battery limits of a P85(+) you mention here and stay out of jail. So here the P85(+) needs a track to get those limitations. Not many bought the car for track driving.

I thought Tesla would deliver a similar experience with the P85D, but they clearly didnt. For some reason they changed measuring method of 0-100kph on one model alone without any info. That is a BIG difference, and was obviously done to make the gap towards the 85D seem wider than reality. No such issues for the P85(+)...

 

[dsm363]

Where I live its not even remotely possible to reach these battery limits of a P85(+) you mention here and stay out of jail. So here the P85(+) needs a track to get those limitations. Not many bought the car for track driving.

Wouldn't that apply even more to the P85D? It's quicker.

 

[darthy001]

Wouldn't that apply even more to the P85D? It's quicker.

Oh yes, but I've never claimed otherwise either it was lolachampcar that suddenly started comparing to track driving and spiritd driving in reference to the P85(+). He asked why there was no similar uproar for that car.... One obvious answer is that you need a track to notice this aspect of Model S "lack" of abilities. At least here in Norway there is no other legal way. A P85D can easily be pushed to its HP-limits without ever risking a smal fine even.

I've never been on a real track, and will never go with my Tesla. Dont count go-carting

 

[dsm363]

That's what's so odd about this debate. Sure, it doesn't feel like 1 hp per 7lbs or whatever the argument is. But Andy, you yourself said the car is a phenomenal performer and have never had a sports car. If you had never seen this thread would you really be upset with the way the car performs?

 

[darthy001]

That's what's so odd about this debate. Sure, it doesn't feel like 1 hp per 7lbs or whatever the argument is. But Andy, you yourself said the car is a phenomenal performer and have never had a sports car. If you had never seen this thread would you really be upset with the way the car performs?

I think he has inderictly answered that numerous times before.

Problem is like paraphrasing master Yoda: you cannot unlearn what you have learned

Personally I actually started out defending Tesla in these threads on the Norwegian forum. Until I realised the roll-out usage and the battery limits. In hindsight I must have been in a state of denial

I was even stupid enough to think Tesla would "fix" this by the infamous OTA-upgrade like they promised to do, but that suddenly became a 10000USD upgrade here in Norway...

All things add up and while the car is awesome the company isnt anymore for me at least. I just hope ironman himself wasnt "in on this"...

 

[dsm363]

It's almost like Tesla is the first company in the world to sell something with marketing speak that ends up not being 100% accurate.

 

[darthy001]

It's almost like Tesla is the first company in the world to sell something with marketing speak that ends up not being 100% accurate.

If it hadnt been for Tesla claiming to be "different" in this exact regard I would buy that argument. They have repeatedly argued against dealers and their shady tactics....

Up until the D-launch they delivered on being different as well. Now they are just a standard company making brilliant cars.. Rhey used to be a brilliant company making brilliant cars

 

[dsm363]

If it hadnt been for Tesla claiming to be "different" in this exact regard I would buy that argument. They have repeatedly argued against dealers and their shady tactics....

Up until the D-launch they delivered on being different as well. Now they are just a standard company making brilliant cars.. Rhey used to be a brilliant company making brilliant cars

Tesla claimed to be different in many aspects such as lack of dealerships and other aspects but don't think they made specific claims about their advertising.

 

[Andyw2100]

That's what's so odd about this debate. Sure, it doesn't feel like 1 hp per 7lbs or whatever the argument is. But Andy, you yourself said the car is a phenomenal performer and have never had a sports car. If you had never seen this thread would you really be upset with the way the car performs?

No, I wouldn't. (Well, this thread and others like it.)

And I've said that more than once.

In fact, here are some excerpts from posts earlier today, in which I said that, and in which I explain why it's an issue for me anyway.

And to be honest, I don't know that I have the experience to evaluate the acceleration at higher speeds. I've said many times that were it not for what others have written, I would never have known there was an issue.

On the other hand, I --DID-- know that I was buying a really powerful car. I knew how happy people were with the performance of the P85, and I heard Elon Musk say during the D announcement, which I watched many times before ordering, that the P85D would have "half again as much power" as the P85. So while the numbers didn't mean anything to me, since the P85D was my first sports car and I was by no means a sports car enthusiast, the concept of a car that was going to be 50% more powerful than a car that I knew people were thrilled with --DID-- mean something to me.

So now, knowing that Tesla did not deliver all they promised is upsetting to me. The issue was just amplified when Tesla announced the Ludicrous upgrade, which to me, and many of us, seems to be a way to charge us for making the car more like it was supposed to be when it was originally delivered.

If you've ever shopped for a reasonably high end diamond engagement ring you know about the 4 C's--Carat, Cut, Color, and Clarity. Carat is the size, which you can see, to an extent. Cut refers to the shape of the diamond--round, rectangular, etc.--but there is also a quality component in the cut as well. Color actually for the typical white diamond really refers to a lack of color--the less yellow the better. And clarity refers to the imperfections (or lack thereof) in the stone.

I'd be willing to bet that unless you have training in this field if you were in the market for a diamond in the 1-1.5 carat range, and in the $25,000-$35,000 range, someone could easily show you a $25,000 larger diamond that would look better to you than a $35,000 smaller one. In other words, you would not be able to get even a reasonably good idea of the value by just looking at the diamond.

Take this a step further. You decide to pay $35,000 for a diamond that you believe to have x,y, and z characteristics. You find out later that the diamond doesn't actually have those characteristics. You can't see a difference. Are you upset?

That's kind of where I'm coming from.

I really like to get what I pay for. This is less important to me, obviously, when I'm buying a $20 item on Amazon than it is when I'm spending $140,000 on a car. In the latter situation, I REALLY want to get every penny's worth.

 

[dsm363]

No, I wouldn't. (Well, this thread and others like it.)

And I've said that more than once.

In fact, here are some excerpts from posts earlier today, in which I said that, and in which I explain why it's an issue for me anyway.

And you did get 'a really powerful car'. It's not an M5 track car but that should have been clear to anyone who had read anything about the car prior to buying.

 

[Andyw2100]

And you did get 'a really powerful car'. It's not an M5 track car but that should have been clear to anyone who had read anything about the car prior to buying.

And if you had bought the diamond that you thought had x, y, and z characteristics for $35,000, but it turned out to have x, y, and z-1 characteristics, you'd still have a really nice diamond. But would you be satisfied with that, or would you want the diamond you thought you had paid for?

 

[Ocelot]

Tesla claimed to be different in many aspects such as lack of dealerships and other aspects but don't think they made specific claims about their advertising.

I think you are slitting hairs. At the very least then, based on your argument, once could say they are being a bit hypocritical, no? The point is only relevant as people WANT something different in ALL aspects. The general public is tired of being misled, tired of tricky advertising, tired of the 'business as usual' approach. Most of us here want Telsa to succeed with their integrity intact. As if their integrity is questioned, or is not intact, they in all likelihood will fail.

 

[dsm363]

And if you had bought the diamond that you thought had x, y, and z characteristics for $35,000, but it turned out to have x, y, and z-1 characteristics, you'd still have a really nice diamond. But would you be satisfied with that, or would you want the diamond you thought you had paid for?

If they advertised a modified term with no clear definition I would have asked what that meant. A 2 'premium' carat diamond for example (making up a term). If I had bought the item and then found out that the term had a definition and they followed that but I was unaware I would either sell the item, return it if I could or just accept I should have done a little more digging and moved on with life.

 

[dsm363]

I think you are slitting hairs. At the very least then, based on your argument, once could say they are being a bit hypocritical, no? The point is only relevant as people WANT something different in ALL aspects. The general public is tired of being misled, tired of tricky advertising, tired of the 'business as usual' approach. Most of us here want Telsa to succeed with their integrity intact. As if their integrity is questioned, or is not intact, they in all likelihood will fail.

Sure, they might be a little hypocritical. Wouldn't be the first company to not be perfect in every category. We are talking about a company run by humans. I too want Tesla to be above board and looks like they didn't handle things well here but for some (not you) to imply or say they lied and cheated people seems a little much.