Hyundai and KIA are on the NACS train now!

[sleepydoc]

EA already announced they will be adding NACS (back in June). Not clear how many connectors per site though. I would guess most though, since electrically NACS=CCS and NACS cars are a far larger potential market.

interesting - good to know! Of course now that will make EA chargers an even bigger gamble not only do you need to know if they're working but also if they have the right plug and if the stall with the right plug is working!


Edit: I just looked up some numbers and for the last 2 years Tesla alone has sold over 65% of the BEVs in the U.S. If you look at the market share for the last quarter, the makers that use or will be using NACS make up almost 90% of U.S. BEV sales. At this point it seems like it would be a big mistake not to adopt the NACS connector.

 

[smogne41]

Yeah, any charging network that actually cares about being a business will go all-in on NACS. And we really need charging providers that are successful businesses.

 

[zroger73]

I'm not convinced the charging experience will be significantly better when non-Tesla chargers replaced CCS connectors with NACS connectors. The connector is rarely the problem - it's the charging equipment and/or billing system that is usually the problem. All a connector will do is eliminate the need to snap on a CCS adapter.

 

[smogne41]

I'm not convinced the charging experience will be significantly better when non-Tesla chargers replaced CCS connectors with NACS connectors. The connector is rarely the problem - it's the charging equipment and/or billing system that is usually the problem. All a connector will do is eliminate the need to snap on a CCS adapter.

Sure, but competition from a reliable network (Tesla) better help.

 

[sleepydoc]

Sure, but competition from a reliable network (Tesla) better help.

Or will hurt Tesla owners because other EV owners will avoid the other networks in favor of one that works!

 

[smogne41]

Or will hurt Tesla owners because other EV owners will avoid the other networks in favor of one that works!

I guess I just strongly dislike propitiatory ecosystems, where some see a competitive mote I also see a prison. I will gladly endure some inconvenience for a while to eventually get to a state of having a charging environment of lots of providers (including plenty of independents) that everybody can use and with strong competition in the market. Another consideration (for me) is that another Tesla is not a very attractive option for me next time I need a new car (hopefully in many years), but I would like to still have Supercharger access

 

[sleepydoc]

I guess I just strongly dislike propitiatory ecosystems, where some see a competitive mote I also see a prison. I will gladly endure some inconvenience for a while to eventually get to a state of having a charging environment of lots of providers (including plenty of independents) that everybody can use and with strong competition in the market. Another consideration (for me) is that another Tesla is not a very attractive option for me next time I need a new car (hopefully in many years), but I would like to still have Supercharger access

Nominally I don’t disagree but the problem right now is there is no real competition. Tesla’s supercharger network blows the competition out of the water on all fronts. Reliability, availability, convenience/functionality - you name it, superchargers are simply better. The supercharger network is also a big reason many people bought a Tesla and part of their value and it’s also part of what we paid for when we bought a Tesla. Completely opening up the Supercharger network at this point would not only be an inconvenience but would also decrease the value of our cars. Couple that with the fact that Teslas can currently use any other charger if they have the proper adapter and you have a very hard sell when you argue for completely opening up the supercharger network.

There may also be a legal argument at play - Tesla markets and sells the supercharger network as part of the benefits of buying a Tesla. If they take that away current owners may actually have a legal claim of harm by the company. That’s much less clear, though.

Long term, my hope is that EA and other networks will improve their reliability and availability so it will be a non issue, or at least much less of one.

 

[zroger73]

For now, Teslas greatly outnumber all other EVs combined and almost certainly will for years to come.

New Superchargers are continuously being added. As of this post, there are 1,981 Supercharger locations in the US with 188 under construction and 332 permitted for construction.

And, there will never be or need to be nearly as many EV charging stations as their are gas stations because most EVs can charge at home. I don't know anyone who has a gas pump at home.

Because of these things, my level of concern with Tesla opening up their charging network to non-Tesla EVs is very low.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

For now, Teslas greatly outnumber all other EVs combined and almost certainly will for years to come.

New Superchargers are continuously being added. As of this post, there are 1,981 Supercharger locations in the US with 188 under construction and 332 permitted for construction.

And, there will never be or need to be nearly as many EV charging stations as their are gas stations because most EVs can charge at home, but I don't know of anyone who has a gas pump at home.

View attachment 980865

Have you done the math on it, or are you assuming?

In the USA the maximum gas pump speed is 10 gal/min, with sellers targeting 8 to 10 gal/min. Let's be generous to EVs and say that it's 8 gal/min.
The average gasoline vehicle sold in the USA is rated 25.4mpg, or close. Lets be generous to EVs and use 25mpg.

Then, every hour of gasoline refueling, provides 480 gallons, giving 12,000 miles of driving.

The top-selling EV in the USA is the Model Y, with an EPA highway rating of 116mpge, which is equivalent to 33.7/116 ~ 0.29kWh/mile
Peak charging rate is 250kW, which means ~860.5 miles per hour.

So, if the average EV in the real world matched the Model Y's EPA highway for efficiency, and could charge on average at 250kW, in order to operate with fewer DCFC stations* than gas pumps, EV would need to be charging 92.28% or more of their miles at home or destinations. I think that's possible overall, but one significant road trip per year could easily make people exceed that number, as we did with a July trip, despite a chunk of destination charging.

Besides, EVs certainly do _not_ average 250kW charging at the moment.

* I assume you meant just DCFC. Clearly if everybody is charging an EV at home the total number of EVSEs would be _vastly_ greater than the number of gas pumps.

 

[sleepydoc]

Have you done the math on it, or are you assuming?

In the USA the maximum gas pump speed is 10 gal/min, with sellers targeting 8 to 10 gal/min. Let's be generous to EVs and say that it's 8 gal/min.
The average gasoline vehicle sold in the USA is rated 25.4mpg, or close. Lets be generous to EVs and use 25mpg.

Then, every hour of gasoline refueling, provides 480 gallons, giving 12,000 miles of driving.

The top-selling EV in the USA is the Model Y, with an EPA highway rating of 116mpge, which is equivalent to 33.7/116 ~ 0.29kWh/mile
Peak charging rate is 250kW, which means ~860.5 miles per hour.

So, if the average EV in the real world matched the Model Y's EPA highway for efficiency, and could charge on average at 250kW, in order to operate with fewer DCFC stations* than gas pumps, EV would need to be charging 92.28% or more of their miles at home or destinations. I think that's possible overall, but one significant road trip per year could easily make people exceed that number, as we did with a July trip, despite a chunk of destination charging.

Besides, EVs certainly do _not_ average 250kW charging at the moment.

* I assume you meant just DCFC. Clearly if everybody is charging an EV at home the total number of EVSEs would be _vastly_ greater than the number of gas pumps.

Level 2 home charging at home is slower but cheaper, more convenient and easier on the batteries. DC fast charging is necessary for road trips and for people who can’t charge at home (apartment dwellers, older electrical infrastructure, etc.) It’s really hard to compare - currently everyone who drives an ICE vehicle needs to fill at a gas station for every mile driven while the minority of EV miles are driven off of DC fast charges.

I actually foresee a paradigm shift - we are accustomed to driving to gas stations to fill up our cars so there’s a huge network of millions of gas stations that exist solely to fill up our cars and sell us bad coffee, stale donuts and junk food. There’s no reason there can’t be slow level 2 charging spots at stores that let you charge at say 30-40A AC while you shop, eliminating the need for gas stations.

Either way, one clearly can’t compare the need for gas pumps and DC fast charging stalls based solely on miles driven.

 

[zroger73]

And, it's a lot easier, faster, and cheaper to dig a three-foot trench for wire conduit than a huge crater for underground gasoline storage tanks.

And, if we did have gasoline pumps at home, a flow rate of even 1 gallon every 5 hours would more than sufficient for the average daily use of the average vehicle.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

And, it's a lot easier, faster, and cheaper to dig a three-foot trench for wire conduit than a huge crater for underground gasoline storage tanks.

And, if we did have gasoline pumps at home, a flow rate of even 1 gallon every 5 hours would more than sufficient for the average daily use of the average vehicle.

If we had home gas pumps there would indeed be fewer gas stations, because there'd be far less of a market. "Imagine a home gas pump" is one way to explain the impact of home charging to ICEV driver.

But comparing EV DCFC and ICEV infastructure requirements, you're dealing with vastly different refueling speeds which has to be taken into account. When you _do_ need DCFC you need many more chargers per mile served. The key question is just how much home and destination charging can take off the share of driving miles. 200 mile journeys are only something like 81% of average household miles.

 

[threeputts]

gas stations that exist solely to fill up our cars and sell us bad coffee, stale donuts and junk food.

I knew my home charging setup was missing something.

 

[TesLEEZ]

A heat pump is not going to help you that much in Texas

Mild winters 30-60F is where heat pumps really shine and work efficiently.

 

[pinolero]

Having the same connector doesn’t automatically mean they can use superchargers but your concern is shared by many. One of the big (huge) advantages of Tesla is their large, reliable charging network that is seamlessly integrated into the car. Suddenly clogging it up with a bunch of non-teslas would create headaches and actually decrease the value of the car.

There are some superchargers that have a couple bays available to non-Teslas. My understanding is that this was required for Tesla to receive federal EV charging infrastructure funds.

My guess is that the biggest advantage of the NACS standard for us (aside from it being a better, more elegant solution) is that it will be easier for Teslas to charge at other sites.

Of course if VW persists with CCS then the Electrify America network may well stay CCS and we’ll have another VHS/Beta situation. Hopefully VW will switch as well and we can have one standard. That would be better for everyone.

Tesla is only opening up 12K chargers nationwide. As a Tesla owner we'll be alright and of course get a cheaper rate per charge. Just now around my way I noticed that Tesla dropped the price of a 150kw Supercharger from .37 to .31, the reason? EA dropped four chargers in the same area recently (as in a few months ago) so I was perplexed today as I drove back home and happened to just browse and saw the new charging rate.

Just my speculation on the rate change, but just like price cuts to satisfy inventors they're aware of the competition that is showing up around the way. BTW you dated yourself and I'm doing it here with that classic VHS/Beta reference. In the end Beta was better quality but VHS became cheaper if I can recall correctly.

 

[zoomer0056]

Much as Tesla Super Charger network is a selling point for Tesla car, it is now a selling point for other EVs. Case in point, Rivian. Ride the coat tails, Tesla will cash in for its innovation.

 

[meomyo]

this SUKS......Its already bad enpough with ford....now kia and hyiandai....why?

 

[threeputts]

this SUKS......Its already bad enpough with ford....now kia and hyiandai....why?

and GM, Mercedes, Volvo, Nissan, Honda, Rivian, Polestar.

 

[pinolero]

and GM, Mercedes, Volvo, Nissan, Honda, Rivian, Polestar.

All who threw in the white towel are all saying the same thing, 12K. That is what Tesla has promised to all of these converts. Oh, and you don't think that these other competitors will not pass the added cost to their consumers is not going to happen?

At the end of the day Tesla owners will be alright. New Superchargers will be exclusive to them. Capitalism may push for further investments/upgrades to other EV chargers who want to cash in esp since Tesla seems to have won the charger adapter wars in the US.

 

[sleepydoc]

this SUKS......Its already bad enpough with ford....now kia and hyiandai....why?

This about standardization, not necessarily completely opening the supercharger network. In the end, standardization will be a good thing.

The supercharger network is a private network owned by Tesla. As I understand it, some bays of some superchargers will be public based on Tesla’s use of federal subsidies but for the time being most will not be.