BMW chief attacks petrol and diesel car ban amid chaotic rush to electric vehicles

BMW chief attacks petrol and diesel car ban amid chaotic rush to electric vehicles

The chief said he wanted drivers to spend money with the brand for a vehicle that suits them

www.gbnews.com

And the BMW chief says:

“We want people to spend a lot of money on our products because they say ‘It’s the best product for me’. Because they want it and not because they have to”

Come on, how many really want to spend lot of money just because it is the best product - according to him.

"BMW i4 IAA 2021 1X7A0308" by Alexander Migl is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[spdpsba]

Aston Martin had the Cygnet thing to bring their average emissions down.

Exactly this - this is what manufacturers want the Government to do, so that they can continue to produce their ICE cars where they have heavily invested. And by quoting this you are really making fun of your own arguments. We all know why AM did the cygnet and that was the worst any car company can do in the name of reducing their total emissions!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The business world is littered with examples of companies that failed to adapt to market changes such as Nokia and RIM (Blackberry) being slow to the threat of the iPhone and android phones or Blockbuster having the chance to buy Netflix but the boss thinking streaming would never take off as people wanted to browse a physical store. BMW had the chance to be a market leader in EVs but like Nokia and RIM they are making so much on existing products it’s difficult to switch. Having said that there designs are a mess and they’ve gone down the route of using the same platform for both ICE and EV which ultimately means compromises for both (not that a dedicated EV platform is a guarantee of success - see the Mercedes EQS for a surprisingly bad car).

To be honest I wouldn’t be surprised if some major car manufacturers go under in the next few years as they fail to adapt. Prime candidate must be Toyota who make about $2bn a quarter but are burning cash and about $200bn in debt. It won’t take much of a switch to EVs to wipe out their profits and it isn’t like they’ve got a good EV offering - it always seems to be around solid state batteries coming in the next couple of years (they’ve been saying that since 2017).

Yes, Toyota's vulnerable to a shift to BEV, but I think that at this stage it's helped by the normalization of electrification and has _increased_ hybrid sales.

Toyota is talking about solid state batteries to try to say that although they're behind, they'll catch up and have future IP in batteries.

However, it's been electrified for a long time, has hybrids across its fleet, including AWD,hybrids, some PHEVs, including AWD. Its HEVs and PHEVs are relatively efficient and its PHEVs have heat pumps, which helps make them a better option than those from many other companies. (I'm looking at you Hyundai).

So, I think in the shift Toyota has time as it will be strong anywhere for people who can't or don't want to go BEV.

I think the Tokyo Olympics delay hurt because they couldn't make a public shift to EV until late 2021.

 

[Jason71]

Yes, Toyota's vulnerable to a shift to BEV, but I think that at this stage it's helped by the normalization of electrification and has _increased_ hybrid sales.

Toyota is talking about solid state batteries to try to say that although they're behind, they'll catch up and have future IP in batteries.

However, it's been electrified for a long time, has hybrids across its fleet, including AWD,hybrids, some PHEVs, including AWD. Its HEVs and PHEVs are relatively efficient and its PHEVs have heat pumps, which helps make them a better option than those from many other companies. (I'm looking at you Hyundai).

So, I think in the shift Toyota has time as it will be strong anywhere for people who can't or don't want to go BEV.

I think the Tokyo Olympics delay hurt because they couldn't make a public shift to EV until late 2021.

why does a PHEV need a heat pump?
Surely it draws any heat it needs from the engine which wastes 70% of its fuel as heat anyway?

 

[Mrklaw]

I get that completely. There is however sometimes an irrationality about government and its legislation v market forces. I'm more an advocate of goverment using carrots as much as sticks to make people change. Want to get people off ICE, gradually increase VED to the point where it's not viable for many over the next 10 years rather than the current approach where after 5 years the premium rate for luxury cars drops off.

Take a wholesale look at Euro 5.6 and7 and what was all that about if you're scrapping EVs

Review infrastructure support to make EV long distance driving more feasible, scrap VAT for the next 5 years on public chargers, and give 125% capital allowances (if they don;t already qualify) to peg electricity prices say 30% below that of the equivalent petrol or diesel costs on a site by site basis. So if a service statin sell petrol at £8 a gallon that does a typical 40 miles, or 20p a mile, then electricity needs to be no more than 3 miles per kwh * 20p * 70% = 42p kwh. Want to charge more for electricity, you charge more for petrol and diesel.

Look to California and make brands have an increasing heavy EV mix in their sales. Rather than an outright ban in 5 years, make it 50% by volume of sales by brand need to be pure EV, If the economics require it manufacturers will discount EVs to be able to sell ICE or to ensure the balance is right. Aston Martin had the Cygnet thing to bring their average emissions down.

Look at manufacturers production emissions. Cars containing a high propotion of recycled materials and built in a carbon neutral factory (the i3 was one of the first)

Blunt bans don't really help anyone especially if you subsequently move the goal posts which has been happening, and they don't help the aging market where people will potentially run older ICE cars well beyond their sell by date and producing worse emissions.

But the notion that a company that makes something like 20 different product variations is trying to control choice is somewhat laughable compared to Tesla making only 2 RHD variants.

normally I might agree. And if the government had taken action earlier - like a decade earlier - with that kind of joined up thinking - there might be time to allow a carrot to do its job.

 

[Leytonstone]

why does a PHEV need a heat pump?
Surely it draws any heat it needs from the engine which wastes 70% of its fuel as heat anyway?

Preconditioning for starters.

Our family wagon is a PHEV and in 12 months has covered 5,000 miles and has been filled with petrol *drumroll* twice. In other words, the engine is rarely used (and even when it is, the only time it gets warm is when the 40-mile battery hits 0% some time into a longer trip).

 

[E90alex]

except by letting ICE sales ‘naturally’ fall off and end you’re relying on manufacturers increasing investment in EVs and slowing sales of ICE. If you just leave it to the market there is no guarantee new sales will stop which is why you need legislation

Yes you need legislation to help move things along but an all out ICE ban by 20xx is not the way to do it.

Provide rebates/subsidies for EVs to make them more affordable. Increase gas and diesel taxes. Add carbon tax to ICE vehicle purchases and/or registrations. Limit ICE vehicle access in city centers (which a lot of European cities already do). Increase funding for charging infrastructure. Require EV charging for new construction projects. Provide incentives or rebates for trading in an ICE vehicle for an EV.

If governments and automakers help make EV ownership less expensive and less of a hassle than ICE, then more people will choose to buy EV over ICE.

As much as we want the world to go 100% EV overnight, EVs are still not ideal for every use case and won’t be for a while. Also EV production is limited by battery production capacity. Total battery production worldwide, Tesla and Chinese companies included, is nowhere near enough to support 100% EV sales in the next 5-10 years.

 

[Leejmoff]

Are we all forgetting there are lots of ICE cars out there already, we don't need to sell more new cars. Just buy used ones and repair when needed while the country moves over to EV. Society is very throw away these days and people should try to repairs cars more rather than just get rid of them after a couple of years.
The real problem is old companies not keeping up with modern ways. They happy to stay making oney on ICE cars, if the government don't push the change, they will not invest in change.

 

[Js1977]

Preconditioning for starters.

Our family wagon is a PHEV and in 12 months has covered 5,000 miles and has been filled with petrol *drumroll* twice. In other words, the engine is rarely used (and even when it is, the only time it gets warm is when the 40-mile battery hits 0% some time into a longer trip).

Genuine question. Do you think you need a phev? Or are there any attributes to what you have that cant be had on a bev now or when you purchased?

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Exactly this - this is what manufacturers want the Government to do, so that they can continue to produce their ICE cars where they have heavily invested. And by quoting this you are really making fun of your own arguments. We all know why AM did the cygnet and that was the worst any car company can do in the name of reducing their total emissions!

If manufacturers were made to have say a 50/50 mix at worst, then they would need to either discount EVs heavily, improve them, or both to enable them to sell ICE. Which occurred there would be more EVs, and if the car companies want to make a profit they would not just go down the heavy discount route

The AM Cygnet was an example of a crude attempt to meet a regulation and a manufacturer reacting accordingly. It was a rubbish car and AM paid the price, the lesson for today would be you can’t produce rubbish and expect to get away with it.

 

[spdpsba]

If manufacturers were made to have say a 50/50 mix at worst, then they would need to either discount EVs heavily, improve them, or both to enable them to sell ICE. Which occurred there would be more EVs, and if the car companies want to make a profit they would not just go down the heavy discount route

The AM Cygnet was an example of a crude attempt to meet a regulation and a manufacturer reacting accordingly. It was a rubbish car and AM paid the price, the lesson for today would be you can’t produce rubbish and expect to get away with it.

That was really funny. Legacy automakers had 100 years to cut down on emission even before Elon literally wheeled out Tesla. They did nothing other than making profits by just offering people like you sugar coated choices without even giving any thoughts about the planet earth. It really doesn’t matter to them as long as people spend money and buy their cars and they make profits. And you think they will do the altruistic act of slowly increasing the EV and decreasing the ICE? That industry needed a bitter pill for all what they did for 100 years and Elon had given them a shock of their life.

 

[Leytonstone]

Genuine question. Do you think you need a phev?

Yes, mainly to annoy starry-eyed Elon-quoters

 

[spdpsba]

Yes, mainly to annoy starry-eyed Elon-quoters

And this is to annoy apparently clear-eyed Elon haters…here you go . Please guys don’t buy it and then come to the forum to moan about it all the time. It is all crystal clear and please don’t start a thread on lawsuit and choices that was not given to you for this - it is your right to sue and leave it at that.

Tesla says first Cybertruck customers to resell could face extremely harsh penalties

The car manufacturer is wanting to prevent people reselling the truck within the first year of purchase.

www.unilad.com

 

[WannabeOwner]

this is to annoy apparently clear-eyed Elon haters…here you go

He's climbed down (on that one, at least )

Tesla removes purchase clause that threatened to sue Cybertruck scalpers

This weekend, Tesla added a clause to its purchase agreement threatening to sue Cybertruck scalpers for $50k+. Now the clause is gone again.

electrek.co

 

[spdpsba]

He's climbed down (on that one, at least )

But this one continues, so lawsuit opportunities still exist.

Tesla's Head Designer Drove A Black Cybertruck To A Car Show And Everyone’s Making Fun Of It. Here Are All The Pics So You Can Judge For Yourself - The Autopian

I’m not sure there has ever been a vehicle that inspires so much simultaneous adoration and revulsion as the Tesla Cybertruck. The thing isn’t even out yet, and there’s already people both ready to burn one in (a simple, plywood) effigy and those that are seriously considering starting to pray...

www.theautopian.com

 

[Leytonstone]

And this is to annoy apparently clear-eyed Elon haters…here you go . Please guys don’t buy it and then come to the forum to moan about it all the time.

It's not coming to Europe. I'd like to think there isn't a single European buyer interested in the weird mutant offspring of a paper aeroplane, door wedge and filing cabinet, made by a company known for questionably executed daydreams, but judging by comments in other subforums I was wrong. There are about three.

 

[spdpsba]

There are about three.

Wrong again. 10% of order came from Europe ie around 200,000 if the rough order estimate is around 2million in 2022. However, Tesla did stop taking reservations for cybertruck in Europe in the middle of 2022.

Tesla Stops Taking Cybertruck Orders From Europe And China, But Continues In North America | Carscoops

Tesla will no longer accept orders from outside North America as reservations before production even begins

www.carscoops.com

 

[KennethS]

There are about three.

I am one of those 3...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

why does a PHEV need a heat pump?
Surely it draws any heat it needs from the engine which wastes 70% of its fuel as heat anyway?

Partly efficiency, partly preference. Electric cabin heating in a PHEV means you don't have to run the engine when you need cabin heat, and having a heat pump makes the cabin heating more efficient, improving cold-weather electric efficiency. I have resistive heating in my Volt and that really eats into range.

While theoretically you could say that if you're using engine heat it could help make that more efficient than using the battery, cold engine starts are particularly inefficient and polluting, especially in lower temperatures when you want more cabin heat. And if you're on a short drive (like our 1 mile to a supermarket), the engine running is actually pointless. Plus, if you're lucky enough to live somewhere where your charging is from renewable electricity, getting CHP from the engine isn't more efficient anyway.

And of course, driving's better with the engine off.

 

[Js1977]

Partly efficiency, partly preference. Electric cabin heating in a PHEV means you don't have to run the engine when you need cabin heat, and having a heat pump makes the cabin heating more efficient, improving cold-weather electric efficiency. I have resistive heating in my Volt and that really eats into range.

While theoretically you could say that if you're using engine heat it could help make that more efficient than using the battery, cold engine starts are particularly inefficient and polluting, especially in lower temperatures when you want more cabin heat. And if you're on a short drive (like our 1 mile to a supermarket), the engine running is actually pointless. Plus, if you're lucky enough to live somewhere where your charging is from renewable electricity, getting CHP from the engine isn't more efficient anyway.

And of course, driving's better with the engine off.

I must (genuinely) admit you have a point... We will tick the box for that optional extra.... That will be $1000 please

 

[yessuz]

That was really funny. Legacy automakers had 100 years to cut down on emission even before Elon literally wheeled out Tesla. They did nothing other than making profits by just offering people like you sugar coated choices without even giving any thoughts about the planet earth. It really doesn’t matter to them as long as people spend money and buy their cars and they make profits. And you think they will do the altruistic act of slowly increasing the EV and decreasing the ICE? That industry needed a bitter pill for all what they did for 100 years and Elon had given them a shock of their life.

except Elon did not wheeled out Tesla. I mean he did not invent anything :/