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Hard to believe that only Tesla has mass-produced an EV with a range > 100 miles.

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Even if there were public charging availability like Tesla's SC system, charging while on the road takes time away from reaching a destination that is beyond the battery's range. The current infrastructure just does not cut it for a 300-mile getaway for a long weekend.

There is such charging structure available: Tesla SC, DC Fast charge, Chademo. 350 mile each way weekend getaway a piece of cake with Tesla - just means 1/2 hour meal/charge/washroom stop each way, which is needed on 5+ hour drive anyway. Same could be accomplished with my eGolf via DC fast charge... if only a bigger battery. Geez if it were only 150 miles vs 100, I could do that trip with 2 stops, which would be fine.

I agree there's a problem that DC fast charge not pervasive enough (I'm not knowledgeable enough about Chademo), but this prompts a chicken/egg discussion. Charging technology and partial network (for non-Tesla) is there. Cars with half-sized batteries are there. Which needs to happen first: expansion of charging structure, or availability of longer range cars?

Tesla addressed this using "brute force" (as only a startup would likely do) by delivering both more or less simultaneously. Chevy might bridge this (new Volt) with ICE extender. If there were 500k volts on the road, you might see enough charging infrastructure built so the ICE extender could wither and fall off in future iteration (Bolt?).

IMO, this all depends on Tesla. If Tesla continues to take massive market share from high-end MB, Porsche, Audi... they MUST continue with their plans to rollout high range competitors to defend their market. And, if they do that, they MUST drive charging infrastructure. On other hand, if Tesla falters or market share regresses, those other companies will drop their EV R&D like a hot potato. Same applies for mid-market. If Tesla delivers III near target price, then BMW, Nissan, Chevy, Ford, VW etc. will need to expand their commitments, and other makers will need to jump in (to both high range cars and charging infrastructure game).
 
Compared to all other cars, EVs are still in a niche. I think (pure battery) EVs as a category crossing the 1% output mark (compared to 100% passenger car output/year) is a good benchmark - we are far away from that.

1% is an important number, it's the "halfway" point in terms of time for technology adoption curves. Norway is well past that point even with just one 100-mile+ model available. UK sales have also really picked up this year. I have some pessimism about the US reaching that point anytime soon though - even if there were compelling models available in the highest-volume segments - Full-size pickup and SUV/CUV buyers are incredibly resistant to change and are half our domestic market. (And remember that dealers are the buyers, not end customers. And that dealers hate and totally "don't get" EV's.)

China as always is a wild card. Their leadership has been making the right noises on "new energy vehicles" lately. How business responds will be interesting to watch. Air quality is becoming a threat to The Party, so there's lots of incentive...
 
Somebody above said that EVs have too much momentum and the electric car can't be "killed" anymore.

I disagree. If gas prices slide to $0.75 per gallon, you can kiss Tesla goodbye. And the Leaf, Volt and all hybrids, including the Prius.

And that's what I think is going to happen. My tin-foil hat is currently misplaced. But that's what I think.

"When you see a situation you don't understand, look for the financial interest.". Don't remember who said that, but truer words were never spoken. And there's never been a financial interest like "big oil".

Just hope that we can still get batteries for our homes to connect to solar panels and go off-grid. I don't know if big-oil can stop that, if new cheap, high-energy, safe batteries are invented (say at least 3X better than what we have today).
 
Somebody above said that EVs have too much momentum and the electric car can't be "killed" anymore.

I disagree. If gas prices slide to $0.75 per gallon, you can kiss Tesla goodbye. And the Leaf, Volt and all hybrids, including the Prius.

And that's what I think is going to happen. My tin-foil hat is currently misplaced. But that's what I think.

"When you see a situation you don't understand, look for the financial interest.". Don't remember who said that, but truer words were never spoken. And there's never been a financial interest like "big oil".

Just hope that we can still get batteries for our homes to connect to solar panels and go off-grid. I don't know if big-oil can stop that, if new cheap, high-energy, safe batteries are invented (say at least 3X better than what we have today).

I would love to see a breakdown of the per-gallon price of extracting, refining, storing, transporting, and dispensing gasoline. Never mind the cost of exploration. I suspect that - at today's gas prices - it is already selling at a loss. Nothing in these infrastructure prices is going to change. There's a floor (cost of production and distribution) on gas prices, and they cannot go below that very far or for long. Big Oil is indeed powerful, threatened, and motivated - but they gotta make money too.
 
Somebody above said that EVs have too much momentum and the electric car can't be "killed" anymore.

I disagree. If gas prices slide to $0.75 per gallon, you can kiss Tesla goodbye. And the Leaf, Volt and all hybrids, including the Prius.

Unlikely, even at those prices. The stone age didn't end because rocks got expensive. EV's are just plain BETTER (well, except for the range/charging thing, but that's improving). The hybrids might disappear, because they're not better. After driving "just" a Volt for a couple months, getting into even a Prius is like a step back into the Steam Age. It's noisy. It shakes and shudders. If feels so strained when asking for just moderate acceleration. Strange, it seemed so quiet and smooth compared to the Subaru it replaced!

Automakers know their sales are at the mercy of oil prices, and that oil prices are volatile and unpredictable. EV's, for them, are at worst a hedge against that.

There's another 6 billion people in the world who want private mobility. Oil production can't be expanded to meet that demand, but it will try...
 
There's a floor (cost of production and distribution) on gas prices, and they cannot go below that very far or for long. Big Oil is indeed powerful, threatened, and motivated - but they gotta make money too.

I work with people who work for oil companies. I have heard them say "we used to dream about projects we could do if oil ever got to $20/barrel" (meaning got as high as $20/barrel). So, I think this "floor" is very low, and we're going to see extremely low gas prices before its over. As I say, I really do think oil is trying to kill the electric car, but I know I'll get shouted out of the forum for it so I don't repeat it too often.

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EV's are just plain BETTER

..

Only problem I have with your argument is that you don't seem to realize virtually nobody knows this (that EVs are better). We EV drivers are such a minority its hard to over-state how little knowledge of EVs there is out there. EVs can't replace ICE vehicles until what you and I (and the rest on this forum) know is common knowledge, which may not be for decades to come...

EVs are still a fragile phenomenon and may not make it. That's the way I see it anyway.
 
What if we change the title to say it is hard to imagine only Nissan an sell an EV under $50k. Tesla is good but out of the price range of 95% of the people if not more. When I purchased my Tesla used it was 3x my next most expensive vehicle. And it is nowhere close to being cost competitive. Yes it is good and fun to drive but it is far from what people can afford.
 
Only problem I have with your argument is that you don't seem to realize virtually nobody knows this (that EVs are better). We EV drivers are such a minority its hard to over-state how little knowledge of EVs there is out there.

Hey, I live in ruralest Maine, there are something like 6 Volts on voltstats.net in this entire state, and only a few dealers that will bother to carry EVs. Probably only because HQ made them. My neighbors think of them as enviro-Nazi Obama hippy suffer-wagons built with taxes stolen out of their pockets. Still, I do my best to "educate" other motorists any time I'm first in line at the traffic light. ;) EV grin for the win. A Volt certainly isn't Tesla-quick, but it still gets up to city traffic speeds effortlessly...
 
I don't have time to argue over definitions. Wikipedia has a nice entry on car output by model:

List of best-selling automobiles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Nissan LEAF is of course the best-selling EV model at the moment with close to 200k lifetime units sold - however it's close to the end of its life and will be replaced by a 2nd gen LEAF soon after the 2016 model.

(And it didn't achieve regular 100+ miles of range until the 2016 edition).

Compared to all other cars, EVs are still in a niche. I think (pure battery) EVs as a category crossing the 1% output mark (compared to 100% passenger car output/year) is a good benchmark - we are far away from that.

Maybe the Nissan LEAF 2 will become the first true "mass-produced" EV (since I assume the Model 3 will be delayed, be more expensive and the GM Bolt will not be sold globally, at least not under the same Chevrolet branding).

I think you're confusing mass produced with mass market. If it's made on an assembly line it's mass produced. Mass market is an entirely different concept.
 
I work with people who work for oil companies. I have heard them say "we used to dream about projects we could do if oil ever got to $20/barrel" (meaning got as high as $20/barrel). So, I think this "floor" is very low, and we're going to see extremely low gas prices before its over. As I say, I really do think oil is trying to kill the electric car, but I know I'll get shouted out of the forum for it so I don't repeat it too often.

The movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit revolved around the building of freeways in Southern California. I saw it in the theater after moving to Seattle, but I grew up in LA and knew the history of the LA streetcars. One of the characters made an ironic comment about nobody would shut down Los Angeles' excellent trolley system. I found it very funny, but got a lot of dirty looks in the theater because nobody else got it. (The movie is full of LA inside jokes.)

GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil , Phillips Petroleum and Mack Trucks formed a shell company that bought up the trolley system and shut it down. Then they pushed to build a freeway system in Southern California. I don't know if the oil companies and other interests are actively trying to kill off EVs, or just making the playing field more difficult. They certainly aren't helping in any way. And the foot dragging by the major auto makers could be chalked up to momentum in the way they are currently doing things. Right now EVs are still a tiny fraction of the market. Tesla's market share is only 0.07% of the global market and may reach as high as 0.8% once the Model 3 reaches full production. The entire EV segment is down in the noise of sales figures.

Car companies are making money making ICEs. Just like Kodak was making money selling film when digital cameras were expensive toys.

I've written before about the three phases of a company's life. Most of the car companies in the world are in the bean counter phase. MBAs run most of these companies, not engineers. They are only interested in making as much money as possible doing what they have always done. Innovation costs money and cuts into profits from selling ICEs. They won't change until they have to. If these companies were in the engineer phase, the CEOs would be technical people who see the handwriting on the wall and would be investing heavily in changing.

Only problem I have with your argument is that you don't seem to realize virtually nobody knows this (that EVs are better). We EV drivers are such a minority its hard to over-state how little knowledge of EVs there is out there. EVs can't replace ICE vehicles until what you and I (and the rest on this forum) know is common knowledge, which may not be for decades to come...

EVs are still a fragile phenomenon and may not make it. That's the way I see it anyway.

I know a lot of people who have zero interest in a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt, but they lust after a Tesla. Most EVs appeal to the eco-consumer. They are designed to be billboards announcing your greenness to anyone who sees the car. They are designed to be cars for people willing to make sacrifices to save the planet. Some sales go to people who want to save money on fuel and are buying a commuter car. Those people have been buying ICEs since oil prices dropped early this year.

Tesla does appeal to green car buyers, but they also appeal to a much larger audience. There are quite a few performance car fans buying P85Ds and P90Ds. There are also people who value car safety who are interested in the Model S/X as well as people who want good storage capacity, but don't want a big bulky SUV. Tesla also has a lot of appeal among tech fans.

I run into Tesla fans just about everywhere. Just mention Tesla and people go nuts telling you how much they love the car. Even people who hate cars love Teslas. I had to take a taxi on a recent trip and the driver made some negative remark about how the eco-nazis all want us to drive electric cars. I mentioned that Teslas are nice though and he spent the rest of the trip going on and on about how a Tesla Model S was his dream car.

Even if a lot of consumers don't know Nissan Leafs have some pretty good advantages over ICEs, most people do know Teslas are superior to anything out there. I see a massive pent up demand for the Model 3. If it's as well designed as the Model S, Tesla will not be able to keep up with demand, even if the bottom drops out of the oil market (which is somewhat unlikely). Low oil prices might make Model 3 sales a little softer, but not by much.
 
I think you're confusing mass produced with mass market. If it's made on an assembly line it's mass produced. Mass market is an entirely different concept.

Lamborghinis are also made on an assembly line...

This Is Where New Lamborghinis Are Born - Speedhunters

Does this mean they are "mass-produced"? I doubt most people would say so.

But let's not get lost in details.

Regarding EVs and mass-production/mass-market, I was only talking about 1% car marketshare above (equal to about 1 million cars/year by 2020). That's still a very small niche, not mass-market imho - but at least there would be some EV production volumes closer to those of successful ICE cars.

Maybe the upcoming Leaf version 2 will be the first BEV to fit the definition of a mass-produced, global modern car.
 
What if we change the title to say it is hard to imagine only Nissan an sell an EV under $50k. Tesla is good but out of the price range of 95% of the people if not more. When I purchased my Tesla used it was 3x my next most expensive vehicle. And it is nowhere close to being cost competitive. Yes it is good and fun to drive but it is far from what people can afford.
I can only dream about it. My job pays peanuts (while it is a telecommuting job, it is menial subcontractor work) and causes me actual physical pain each day, and eventually finding a way to own a Tesla is one of the few things that keeps me going (and paying down the solar panels and Prius that I bought in the last 3 years). It will probably kill me, but at least death will put me out of my misery. ;)
 
Even if a lot of consumers don't know Nissan Leafs have some pretty good advantages over ICEs, most people do know Teslas are superior to anything out there. I see a massive pent up demand for the Model 3. If it's as well designed as the Model S, Tesla will not be able to keep up with demand, even if the bottom drops out of the oil market (which is somewhat unlikely). Low oil prices might make Model 3 sales a little softer, but not by much.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here by "most people". Do you mean if you randomly pick 100 people off the street - is that "most people"? Because not only would 99 of those people not know a Tesla was superior to anything out there, they wouldn't even know what a "Tesla" was. I've been driving one since 2013 and of the people I've met on the street only 2 knew what a Tesla was. The rest all asked me "what kind of car is that?" Maybe you're talking about most EV enthusiasts? I'm lost.

However, I certainly agree with you on one thing: If Tesla makes a car that goes 200 real-world-miles on a charge and sells for $35k, so its roughly $28k after the federal credit, they will not be able to keep up with demand. But I'll believe it when I see it, as far as making the car at the price and milage on a charge targets.

Just in case somebody has this info - anybody got a link to a survey that shows what percent of the general population knows what a Tesla Model S is? I bet its 1% or less.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here by "most people". Do you mean if you randomly pick 100 people off the street - is that "most people"? Because not only would 99 of those people not know a Tesla was superior to anything out there, they wouldn't even know what a "Tesla" was. I've been driving one since 2013 and of the people I've met on the street only 2 knew what a Tesla was. The rest all asked me "what kind of car is that?" Maybe you're talking about most EV enthusiasts? I'm lost.

However, I certainly agree with you on one thing: If Tesla makes a car that goes 200 real-world-miles on a charge and sells for $35k, so its roughly $28k after the federal credit, they will not be able to keep up with demand. But I'll believe it when I see it, as far as making the car at the price and milage on a charge targets.

Just in case somebody has this info - anybody got a link to a survey that shows what percent of the general population knows what a Tesla Model S is? I bet its 1% or less.

I can't find anything in the last year that cites numbers, but in November 2013 22% of the public was aware of Tesla. From December 2014 a blog from the Wall Street Journal cited Tesla as topping the 2014 list for brands with the most cultural traction beating out Google, Apple, and Amazon.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/29/wow-22-people-know-tesla-model-s-31-familiar-nissan-leaf/
http://blogs.wsj.com/cmo/2014/12/16/tesla-tops-list-of-brands-with-the-most-cultural-traction/


If Tesla is topping the list of cultural traction, it appears the public is quite aware of Tesla. Before I looked I thought maybe it was a West Coast thing. The only people I've talked to about Tesla have been in WA, OR, or CA. I think it is at least a national phenomenon in the US.
 
I can't find anything in the last year that cites numbers, but in November 2013 22% of the public was aware of Tesla. From December 2014 a blog from the Wall Street Journal cited Tesla as topping the 2014 list for brands with the most cultural traction beating out Google, Apple, and Amazon.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/29/wow-22-people-know-tesla-model-s-31-familiar-nissan-leaf/
http://blogs.wsj.com/cmo/2014/12/16/tesla-tops-list-of-brands-with-the-most-cultural-traction/


If Tesla is topping the list of cultural traction, it appears the public is quite aware of Tesla. Before I looked I thought maybe it was a West Coast thing. The only people I've talked to about Tesla have been in WA, OR, or CA. I think it is at least a national phenomenon in the US.

I defer to published stats of course, but I can say its nowhere near 22% in my personal experience. Its rare I meet anybody who knows what a Tesla Model S is. One guy I met while going into a movie once came up to me and very loudly asked "How do you like your TELSA??" At first I didn't know if he was mis-pronouncing the name as a joke, but in talking to him about 10 minutes it turned out he was sincerely interested in the car and had read a lot about it. He wins the knowledge-prize for random public persons I've met. But he's just about the only one who's known what the car was. And he didn't know how to say its name. Tesla has a real uphill climb. I hope they make it.
 
IMO, this all depends on Tesla. If Tesla continues to take massive market share from high-end MB, Porsche, Audi... they MUST continue with their plans to rollout high range competitors to defend their market.

Sorry, but did I miss something here? Tesla is taking massive market share from high-end MB, Porsche, Audi...? When and where?
Actually, as a TSLA shareholder I would be glad if this were true, but at the moment I can see no sign of this. I see Audi A7s, Porsche Panameras, BMW 6-series, Merc CLS, Maserati Quattroporte, etc. every day, but a Model S is still a rare sight - and believe me I am on constant lookout for them. I have driven several thousand miles along the Autobahn this year and was desperately trying to spot Model S's. How many did I count over all this time? Three. One from Norway, one from the Netherlands and one from Switzerland. Add to these Autobahn sightings those that I spotted on my journey to/from/at work: about ten this year, more than half of those being corporate vehicles for test drives from the Tesla Frankfurt store.

Massive market share loss looks different imho.

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Only problem I have with your argument is that you don't seem to realize virtually nobody knows this (that EVs are better). We EV drivers are such a minority its hard to over-state how little knowledge of EVs there is out there. EVs can't replace ICE vehicles until what you and I (and the rest on this forum) know is common knowledge, which may not be for decades to come...

+1
I see that every day. Most of the people I speak to don't think anything of EVs. They listen to my arguments for them and then dismiss them by stressing the known disadvantages (too expensive, too little range, nowhere to charge on everyday usage, etc.). Plus, most have still never heard about Tesla, even after much media coverage in Germany especially over the past months.

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What if we change the title to say it is hard to imagine only Nissan an sell an EV under $50k. Tesla is good but out of the price range of 95% of the people if not more. When I purchased my Tesla used it was 3x my next most expensive vehicle. And it is nowhere close to being cost competitive. Yes it is good and fun to drive but it is far from what people can afford.

Another very valid point. Until Model 3 comes around almost no one can afford a Tesla. And those lucky few who can have either not heard of Tesla at all (see above) or don't care for an EV (from my experience).

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean here by "most people". Do you mean if you randomly pick 100 people off the street - is that "most people"? Because not only would 99 of those people not know a Tesla was superior to anything out there, they wouldn't even know what a "Tesla" was. I've been driving one since 2013 and of the people I've met on the street only 2 knew what a Tesla was. The rest all asked me "what kind of car is that?" Maybe you're talking about most EV enthusiasts? I'm lost.

That has been exactly my experience also. Hardly anyone I talked to knew what Tesla was before I told them.
 
That has been exactly my experience also. Hardly anyone I talked to knew what Tesla was before I told them

I get the odd one like that, but the more common comment is "Oh, so that's what a Tesla looks like. I've read about them (or seen them on TV)". I suspect it depends on where you live what the response will be.
 
Sorry, but did I miss something here? Tesla is taking massive market share from high-end MB, Porsche, Audi...? When and where?
Actually, as a TSLA shareholder I would be glad if this were true, but at the moment I can see no sign of this. I see Audi A7s, Porsche Panameras, BMW 6-series, Merc CLS, Maserati Quattroporte, etc. every day, but a Model S is still a rare sight - and believe me I am on constant lookout for them. I have driven several thousand miles along the Autobahn this year and was desperately trying to spot Model S's. How many did I count over all this time? Three. One from Norway, one from the Netherlands and one from Switzerland. Add to these Autobahn sightings those that I spotted on my journey to/from/at work: about ten this year, more than half of those being corporate vehicles for test drives from the Tesla Frankfurt store.

Massive market share loss looks different imho.

Sorry, should have explained "in the US". Tesla S has outsold 7 series BMW and 6 series BMW for a couple of years, and has way outsold Panamera. They have sold almost as much as Porsche across all Porsche models in US since 2014. I can do more lookups, but geez, in my book that is massive market share. Probably not the case in Frankfurt, though.
 
Somebody above said that EVs have too much momentum and the electric car can't be "killed" anymore.

I disagree. If gas prices slide to $0.75 per gallon, you can kiss Tesla goodbye. And the Leaf, Volt and all hybrids, including the Prius.

And that's what I think is going to happen. My tin-foil hat is currently misplaced. But that's what I think.

Intriguing! And scary.
Let's say this is right. If so, (and I hope it ain't) there will be an opposite end to this gas-price continuum... What in your estimation would be a HIGH enough price of gas to "kill" the Escalade, the Hummer, the car class opposite of the electrics?
$4 sure didn't seem to hurt 'em. $10 a gallon? $23?