Demand drivers for Tesla / EVs

[EldestOyster]

It doesn't surprise me. I remember that before I had an EV I didn't have a clue about the "full tank every morning" concept. Even though I'd heard this "just like a cell phone" analogy many times. In fact, the revelation hit about four months after, when we had a big power outage (2011). The next day I had a lot of questions about how I got home without power. The answer was, "Same way I always do". In fact, as the 10-minute trip down to the freeway took nearly two hours (traffic signals were out), I was able to run the air conditioning as much as I wanted--something that just doesn't work well when an ICE vehicle is standing still. And then I discovered that several of these people had had serious range anxiety issues because there was no pumping of gas with the power out. People who skipped the gas station in the morning, or the day before, figuring they would "put it off until tomorrow". Using up a lot of cpu cycles working out how and when they'd refuel...sure, they don't ever give it a thought...

Be patient with the Muggles. They will understand in time. A big reason for getting an EV was to show them that they really work, and that real people own them.

 

[FANGO]

Relevant to your story, oyster: Log In - The New York Times

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

I agree that it's a convenience, but I don't think that is a huge primary benefit. As I said I think the primary benefit is the cost savings of not having to pay for gas, and the environmental consequences. Saving fifteen minutes every 400 miles is less than a mosquito bite. Also the original post was directed to all EV's, not just Tesla. So think about a typical EV with an 60-80 mile range and no superchargers. The primary disadvantage of EV's right now is the short range and charging times. Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but IMO it's wrong. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I need to explain it.

As a leaf owner, I feel that I must echo the sentiment of the others. "Do you own an EV?" Because not having to refuel for 90% of the miles driven is just as applicable with a leaf, as it is with a tesla. The range of the EV only affects which trips can be covered with it, and which requires an alternate vehicle. I put 16,000 miles per year on my leaf (with using ONLY destination chargers). The convenience of not having to stop by a gas station every week, nor scheduling an oil change every 3 months is HUGE.

The gas savings is what people cite when they first transition to EV's, but the rest of the benefits is what they cite once their eyes have been opened and vow never to switch back. Many of us Leaf owners await the delivery of the model 3 for when we can be rid of our back-up gas-mobile.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Everyone,

I asked Robert to split this off into a separate thread. This is quoted from the PM I sent him:

I am willing to continue to respond (for a limited time) to posts on this topic if they are moved to a separate thread.

I sent that request, because I want to try to address everyone's concerns, but I did not feel comfortable continuing to try to do that in the LT thread.

But please try your best to be polite. And please try to restrict your questions to the clarification I posted at the link below, most of which I will copy below.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...or-Tesla-EVs?p=1141829&viewfull=1#post1141829

I think I should try to clarify my views, and apologize for the lack of clarity in my original post on this topic (I added the bold in Zach's post):

Exactly. Even if they have "heard" of electric cars, they often don't understand how they work, and they don't understand their 3 huge consumer benefits (instant torque, convenience, smooth & quiet ride).

What I should have said is something like the following, and I might have mentioned that convenience and comfort do not rate highly in my personal priorities:

I disagree with that list. I think that the "three huge consumer benefits" are the following:
1. The environmental benefits.
2. The lower cost of electricity vs gas.
3. The lower maintenance costs.

The convenience of being able to charge at home is definitely a benefit, but it is a double edged sword when compared to ICE cars, because a side effect of that convenience, is a limited number of places to charge and slow recharging times.

Also even the Superchargers due to the combination of very limited availability compared to gas stations are not fast enough that using them can be considered a "huge consumer...convenience", and most "electric cars" can't use them.
End of what I should have said.
I'm not alone in the opinion that the "convenience" of being able to home charge is a double edged sword:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/alexan...o-good-very-bad-tesla-model-s-p85d-road-trip/

Alexander And The Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Tesla Model S P85D Road Trip..

I don't mind answering relevant questions,to my clarification above. Which is mostly IMO, do you believe that the "convenience" of home charging is more important than any of the three items on my list?

One of the main reasons is clearly that EV's are not dominant (yet) is the short range coupled with long charge times. If you believe that the convenience of home charging outweighs that, that is fine, but that is clearly a minority opinion. I guess (reluctantly) if you want to politely express disagreement on that point it's ok.

Please Note:
Tesla and Superchargers are only relevant to the comment I added in my clarification "Also even the Superchargers due...", because Zach's original post (I think) and my response was (definitely) referring to all EV's.

If we have a Tesla, is completely irrelevant because I was referring to all EV's. And asking me if we own an EV (we do) is both irrelevant and insulting. Try telling Alexander at Car And Driver that the convenience of home charging outweighs the associated hassles and I bet he would disagree. But I'm sure that he would be annoyed if you then told him his opinion did not count because he doesn't own an EV.

- - - Updated - - -

As a leaf owner, I feel that I must echo the sentiment of the others. "Do you own an EV?" Because not having to refuel for 90% of the miles driven is just as applicable with a leaf, as it is with a tesla. The range of the EV only affects which trips can be covered with it, and which requires an alternate vehicle. I put 16,000 miles per year on my leaf (with using ONLY destination chargers). The convenience of not having to stop by a gas station every week, nor scheduling an oil change every 3 months is HUGE.

The gas savings is what people cite when they first transition to EV's, but the rest of the benefits is what they cite once their eyes have been opened and vow never to switch back. Many of us Leaf owners await the delivery of the model 3 for when we can be rid of our back-up gas-mobile.

The convenience of not having to stop at a gas station is trivial for me.

I agree that not needing oil changes is HUGE, which is one of the reasons I put this on my list:
3. The lower maintenance costs.

We are also looking forward to getting a M3.

So our only disagreement is the convenience, which I might have just figured out. I am definitely more frugal than average (my wife says cheap :wink. So the inconvenience of stopping for gas doesn't bother me, but I detest paying for gas and maintenance.

 

[FANGO]

You say that it's a minority opinion, but it is clearly not. Just from this post you can see that the majority find it more convenient. I am sure that a survey of people who actually have experience in the matter would come out the same.

 

[ggr]

The convenience of not having to stop at a gas station is trivial for me.

I agree that not needing oil changes is HUGE, which is one of the reasons I put this on my list:
3. The lower maintenance costs.

Here I'm going to add my voice to the choir. You keep dodging the question of whether or not you have lived with an EV. Now, my previous gas guzzler was a Mercedes, so for me an oil change involved going past the dealer on the way to work, swapping to a loaner car, and reversing the process on the way home. So aside from the wallet gouging, to the extent of $600-$1000 per year, it only cost an hour of my time. But pretty much every week, I had to detour out of my way, line up at Costco (which actually was by far the most convenient gas station... just braving traffic to get to a more normal gas station would have taken even longer and cost much more), get angsty at the idiots who get to the pump only to realize that their cap is on the wrong side, finally get to the front of the queue, muck around for five minutes, fiddling with credit cards, breathing carcinogens, and then pay $40-$60 for the privilege. That adds up to about 25 hours of my life every year! This is NOT trivial for pretty much anyone.

Before I owned an EV, I would probably not have put this on my list either. But now, like others here, I've lived the dream, and this is a big part of it.

Like others, I've reached the conclusion that you just won't admit that you haven't lived with an EV that you charge in your own garage. Sorry if this comes across as a personal attack, but if the moderators think it is, well... it'll be my second quarantine.

 

[eloder]

I agree that it's a convenience, but I don't think that is a huge primary benefit. As I said I think the primary benefit is the cost savings of not having to pay for gas, and the environmental consequences. Saving fifteen minutes every 400 miles is less than a mosquito bite. Also the original post was directed to all EV's, not just Tesla. So think about a typical EV with an 60-80 mile range and no superchargers. The primary disadvantage of EV's right now is the short range and charging times. Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but IMO it's wrong. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I need to explain it.

I own one of those "short range, slow-charging" EVs and I'd peg convenience as one of the big selling points.

There's nothing inconvenient about either option if you just plan ahead, or just use the right vehicle for the right job. I took a regional trip that used 90% of my range each direction, but all I had to do was plug in my car at my destination and it was finished before I was ready to depart home.

 

[MitchJi]

You say that it's a minority opinion, but it is clearly not. Just from this post you can see that the majority find it more convenient. I am sure that a survey of people who actually have experience in the matter would come out the same.

I did not say that home charging is not more convenient!

I said that is not one of the three top benefits, for me personally, and that the added convenience is offset, to some degree by the facts that chargers ara harder to find, and that charging takes longer. Those are not minority opinion, those are obviously facts!

 

[MikeC]

I disagree with that list. I think that the "three huge consumer benefits" are the following:
1. The environmental benefits.
2. The lower cost of electricity vs gas.
3. The lower maintenance costs.

#1 is more of a societal benefit, the consumer benefit would be "feeling good" about the environmental benefits. #3 is probably less true for Model S with $600/year service. Home charging is in my personal top 3, for sure.

 

[MitchJi]

Here I'm going to add my voice to the choir. You keep dodging the question of whether or not you have lived with an EV. Now, my previous gas guzzler was a Mercedes, so for me an oil change involved going past the dealer on the way to work, swapping to a loaner car, and reversing the process on the way home. So aside from the wallet gouging, to the extent of $600-$1000 per year, it only cost an hour of my time. But pretty much every week, I had to detour out of my way, line up at Costco (which actually was by far the most convenient gas station... just braving traffic to get to a more normal gas station would have taken even longer and cost much more), get angsty at the idiots who get to the pump only to realize that their cap is on the wrong side, finally get to the front of the queue, muck around for five minutes, fiddling with credit cards, breathing carcinogens, and then pay $40-$60 for the privilege. That adds up to about 25 hours of my life every year! This is NOT trivial for pretty much anyone.

For me adding gas consists of stopping at a self-serve station in town, when I am driving past there anyway, where I don't remember ever waiting in line. I slide my card into the slot, select my fuel type, and the whole process takes me under 4 minutes.

As for the Oil Change I put maintenance on my list. Can't you see that you are basically saying that I'm wrong because of your own circumstances? And you are also claiming that I'm wrong because your cost of maintenance, which I have stated multiple times, is something that I think is more important than convenience!

So not only are my priorities different than most of you, but my situation is different as well. That does not mean that I am incorrect or an idiot!

I am going to stop replying to posts on this thread, that either ignore what I've said, or can't accept the fact that someone else can have a valid opinion that is different than their own, due to either different circumstances or different personal priorities.

 

[lucy]

I find the regen braking which gives the feel of a manual transmission to be a major benefit as well.

Driving/buying/maintaining a manual transmission car is difficult in these automatic only times, the cars are hard to find, expensive to repair, I over bought the last time just to get a stick shift. Having regen will give me control of the car's momentum without having to have a manual transmission. But driving an automatic had me feeling like the car was driving me, I had to constantly ride the brake to control the car (especially when reversing), could not manage speed with the gears and accelerator as I had been doing for the previous 4+ decades of driving.

 

[FANGO]

#1 is more of a societal benefit, the consumer benefit would be "feeling good" about the environmental benefits. #3 is probably less true for Model S with $600/year service. Home charging is in my personal top 3, for sure.

Environmental benefits are absolutely consumer benefits. Better environment = better health for consumers.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

#1 is more of a societal benefit, the consumer benefit would be "feeling good" about the environmental benefits. #3 is probably less true for Model S with $600/year service. Home charging is in my personal top 3, for sure.

And #1 is only important to a small fraction of people in the marketplace. Consumers are selfish in their new vehicle purchases, as the trend of vehicle purchases make obvious. The only reason I'm optimistic about plug-ins succeeding is because selfish consumers will buy them, and if I were trying to convince people to buy them, I wouldn't bother trying to appeal to altruism, because it's so unlikely to work.

Getting past the early adopters, my list of demand drivers are:
Responsive.
Quiet.
Smooth.
Refuel at home instead of at a gas station.

Once people _have_ the PEV it becomes easy.

 

[MikeC]

Environmental benefits are absolutely consumer benefits. Better environment = better health for consumers.

Of course they are - but indirectly and spread equally among everyone, not just for the purchaser of the car. Me buying an electric car does not really improve the quality of the air I breathe, it's the cumulative effect of many others buying one, too.

My point was simply that environmental benefit is probably not one of the 3 top reasons for buying an EV, there are other more direct EV benefits that have a more direct impact on the majority of buyer's overall satisfaction. Like ItsNotAboutTheMoney, I think that most people have more self-interested motivations.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

For me adding gas consists of stopping at a self-serve station in town, when I am driving past there anyway, where I don't remember ever waiting in line. I slide my card into the slot, select my fuel type, and the whole process takes me under 4 minutes.

I think that might be the source of why you wouldn't consider home fueling as a big convenience. I live within 5 blocks from a gas station, but gas prices being what they are, I preferred the one near my parent's place (10 cent difference, but 8 miles away!), or the gas from costco (closest one is 4 miles away). So I either had to plan in advance to penny-pinch, or be gouged for the "convenience" - unless there was a power-outage, or the refueling tanker is there blocking half the stalls and we're all waiting in line adding insult to injury. With the leaf, I no longer had to worry about when to refuel or to pay more so that I could get back on the road quickly. This was a mental note that occurred EVERY week, and it started with the question, "can I hold off for 2 more days?". I didn't realize that I was suffering from empty-tank anxiety until AFTER living with a leaf.

Now, if I had lived right next to costco, then yeah, the convenience argument is much harder to make. But I would think that there are more people in my situation, who don't live near a low-priced gas station, than the reverse.

My top three benefits:
- lower cost of ownership (fuel and maintenance)
- convenience (it's ready to go every day)
- performance (the leaf is zippy even if it's not fast)

 

[Tuan]

I did not say that home charging is not more convenient!

Agreed. Road trip charging is NOT convenient. Sometimes superchargers are several miles off the travel path - St George Utah is one of them.

 

[Drax7]

Safest sedan on the road, nobody can object to that ,
even though it's a low priority, it's a good rationalization .

 

[ecarfan]

Because IMO the primary consumer benefits are the low cost of fuel and the lower maintenance costs. I don't think that convenience should even be considered a benefit. It's not a benefit when you need to refuel.

MitchJi, thanks for your latest lengthy post and clarification. To refer back to your OP (above) I hope you can now understand why it resulted in a torrent of disagreement. You clearly stated that in your opinion "convenience" (of charging) was could not even be called a "benefit" of EVs compared to fueling an ICE vehicle. You are of course welcome to your opinion but I think it is clear that probably almost every Tesla owner strongly disagrees with you on that point for all the reason expressed so far in this thread.
After repeated queries by myself and others you appear to have finally answered the question of whether or not you own an EV by saying, quote: "If we have a Tesla, is completely irrelevant because I was referring to all EV's. And asking me if we own an EV (we do) is both irrelevant and insulting". I am sorry you felt insulted, that was not my intent at all. But as has been stated repeatedly in this thread by multiple people, the EV owning experience frequently results in owners coming to the conclusion that home charging is far more convenient than going to a gas station, and since generally home charging covers a very high percentage of EV mileage, owners by and large are in agreement about EV charging being one of the primary benefits.
You obviously disagree. Which is fine. But your reluctance to state if you were an EV owner or not, and then to finally say that you were but not state what model of EV you owned, leads me to speculate that it is a short range model that you do not use as your primary vehicle. Again, that is fine, but for many Tesla owners it is our primary vehicle and therefore we are very appreciative of the convenience of home charging and not having to ever go to a gas station (I have not been to one in almost a year, it's a wonderful feeling!) and we rank that as a significant benefit.
Owning a Tesla compared to owning any other EV is fundamentally different because of the much longer range and the fact that for many people a Tesla can serve as their primary or preferred vehicle.

 

[mknox]

Interesting (to me) how so many people detest going to gas stations. That's so low on my radar as to be inconsequential. That never really bothered me, nor does it today when I take my wife's ICE for gas (apparently she hates it and gets me to fill her car up!).

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Interesting (to me) how so many people detest going to gas stations. That's so low on my radar as to be inconsequential. That never really bothered me, nor does it today when I take my wife's ICE for gas (apparently she hates it and gets me to fill her car up!).

Like you, it doesn't bother my wife, but if I refused to fill up the car, I'd bet she'd find home refueling more appealing in the middle of winter.