Audi Q6 e-tron EV

[Kbra]

The literal title of your thread:
Audi e-tron bringing the heat to Model X

Maybe you meant to write:
Audi e-tron: Just another BEV coming to the road as an option

Heat does not mean kill... Troll on bud, troll on

 

[Kbra]

Any news on production capacity? As much as a charging network is important, I think production capacity is the true Achilles heel of most EV manufacturers with the exception of Tesla who has a major head start in battery manufacturing capacity. Relying on LG Chem and Samsung isn't going to be sustainable as more and more manufacturers start launching their EVs and demanding batteries.

Even Tesla is production-constrained, but they are currently the market leader in the EV space.

When EV's really catch-on (soon), buyers will find themselves waiting a long time for the most desirable cars. They will either have to buy a different EV that happens to be available or another ICE....or wait.

Their site says they are building them at their new facility where they are making the battery packs. Who knows if they are already cranking them out or not. I'd assume they won't be as high of demand as Tesla new releases.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Had my ups and downs and currently down. Things is there has yet to be any form of competition so I just stick it out.

yes me too. Love driving Tesla, but so-so about the company and support (here in UK). Right Hand has no idea what the Left Hand is doing most of the time ...

I think production capacity is the true Achilles heel of most EV manufacturers

All the new EVs seem to, almost universally, be saying that they are going to produce 20,000 units p.a. If they have only secured production-capacity for 20,000 batteries p.a. then they aren't going to be able to make any more than that, no matter how successful their vehicle is ... Disappointing

I have a hard time supporting German automobiles when their country has the highest trade surplus in the world

Audi is VW. I've owned and regretted owning VW's and Audi.

I have owned Audi, and more latterly several VWs. Here in Europe no compensation for VW owners, so I was stuck with loss on depreciation and finance if I bailed out early, or driving around in one and advertising that I was OK with the situation, when i most definitely was not.

So my simple solution: Never, ever, going to own another VW nor anything from their stable of companies.

Why was the Audi e-tron launch delayed? Ah yes ... I remember ... the CEO Rupert Stadler was put in jail. Nope, I'm not dealing with any of that lot of lying, cheating, swindlers.

Vote with your feet.

 

[rhumbliner]

I agree that's the primary advantage of Tesla.

From my perspective, Tesla’s primary advantage is cutting out the dealership. I’ve had my car serviced in Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, and Atlanta and I can’t say enough good things about my experiences. I’ve read all of the Tesla-service horror stories here but I’ve never experienced it myself. I could post horror stories I’ve experienced with my Audi and VW dealers but that’s for another forum. It’ll be a long time before I go back to a dealership.

 

[Valore]

Their site says they are building them at their new facility where they are making the battery packs. Who knows if they are already cranking them out or not. I'd assume they won't be as high of demand as Tesla new releases.

No, the E-Tron will be built in their Brussels plant.
Brussels

It had a production capacity of ~100,000 Audi A1 last year.
"In 2017, 95,284 automobiles drove off the production line there."

On Electrek they were saying: Audi starts electric motor production for e-tron quattro ahead of imminent launch
"They say that the “current production capacity is for approximately 400 electric axle motors each day and can be gradually increased.
The automaker says it is employing about 100 workers on the line and it plans to increase the workforce to 130 people by the end of the year and change operations from one to three shift.”

400 motors with one shift per day, 2 motors per car = 200 cars per day, 6 workdays per week, 52 weeks per year = 62400 cars per year with 1 shift motor production.

 

[gavine]

No, the E-Tron will be built in their Brussels plant.
Brussels

It had a production capacity of ~100,000 Audi A1 last year.
"In 2017, 95,284 automobiles drove off the production line there."

On Electrek they were saying: Audi starts electric motor production for e-tron quattro ahead of imminent launch
"They say that the “current production capacity is for approximately 400 electric axle motors each day and can be gradually increased.
The automaker says it is employing about 100 workers on the line and it plans to increase the workforce to 130 people by the end of the year and change operations from one to three shift.”

400 motors with one shift per day, 2 motors per car = 200 cars per day, 6 workdays per week, 52 weeks per year = 62400 cars per year with 1 shift motor production.

That's great, but where are they going to get all of the batteries they will need? Motor and car-assembly capacity doesn't mean that's what they will actually produce. I hope they do make them at that rate though.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

That's great, but where are they going to get all of the batteries they will need? Motor and car-assembly capacity doesn't mean that's what they will actually produce. I hope they do make them at that rate though.

Probably as fast as possible, but still limited.

Diesel sales are still falling.

Interestingly, the European Automobile Manufacturers Assocation hasn't yet publish the Q2 2018 breakdown of sales by fuel type.
They published Q1 2018 breakdowns in early May. Maybe they're all on vacation, or maybe they don't want to publish the data that shows the decline isn't stopping.

Diesel's share continued its downward trend in Germany in April 2018, anyway.

 

[felixculpas]

The European New Car Market in 2018 (First Half)
New passenger vehicle registrations in the European Union and EFTA increased by 2.8% to 8,695,785 cars – an increase of more than 230,000 cars over the same period in 2017.

In the European Union (EU), car sales increased by an even stronger 2.9% to 8,449,247 cars.

According to JATO, this was the strongest first semester for car sales in Europe this century. A noticeable trend was away from diesel (-17%) to a market share of 37% – the lowest since 2001. Sales of SUVs increased by 24%.

 

[Dutchie]

Audi's are nice vehicles but I have a hard time supporting German automobiles when their country has the highest trade surplus in the world.

Having a very high trade surplus means that they must be doing something right knowing their products are is such high demand. That is the basis of capitalism. If you want to do something about it make better products!

 

[Kbra]

No, the E-Tron will be built in their Brussels plant.
Brussels

It had a production capacity of ~100,000 Audi A1 last year.
"In 2017, 95,284 automobiles drove off the production line there."

On Electrek they were saying: Audi starts electric motor production for e-tron quattro ahead of imminent launch
"They say that the “current production capacity is for approximately 400 electric axle motors each day and can be gradually increased.
The automaker says it is employing about 100 workers on the line and it plans to increase the workforce to 130 people by the end of the year and change operations from one to three shift.”

400 motors with one shift per day, 2 motors per car = 200 cars per day, 6 workdays per week, 52 weeks per year = 62400 cars per year with 1 shift motor production.

Right thats the plant i meant which they called brand new on their website, maybe thats relative. I admit i assumed i read they were making the packs there too when they said it was designed specifically for BEVs. Audi e-tron® | The first electric SUV from Audi | Audi USA

 

[felixculpas]

Having a very high trade surplus means that they must be doing something right knowing their products are is such high demand. That is the basis of capitalism. If you want to do something about it make better products!

It's not quite that simple. They practice exclusionary, insular policies that prevent companies from doing business in Germany.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

It's not quite that simple. They practice exclusionary, insular policies that prevent companies from doing business in Germany.

Nonsense.
The only germany-specific thing hindering business here is the overboarding bureaucracy, and that hits foreign and ger-based companies alike.
Aside from that we`re as open as an EU country can be.

Considering what Trump is doing you might want to look at your direct neighbours first when you`re looking for "insular policies" atm....

 

[Valore]

Audi's are nice vehicles but I have a hard time supporting German automobiles when their country has the highest trade surplus in the world.

It's not Germany's fault that German company's machines, cars, tools etc. are of high quality and in high demand worldwide.

From Businessinsider: China just slammed massive tariffs on $34 billion worth of US goods — here's what will get hit
"China released a tariff list that will apply to $34 billion worth of US exports to China.

• The list of goods affected by the tariffs includes soybeans, pork, fish, orange juice, and whiskey."

Americans need to start making nicer stuff like Germany does, not export (third world products like) soybeans, pork, fish, orange juice and whiskey then the massive trade deficit will go down with developed countries.

 

[Valore]

That's great, but where are they going to get all of the batteries they will need?

Probably from their massive $48 billion battery shopping spree I guess.

"The battery purchase is spread among three companies — Samsung SDI, LG Chem, and Contemporary Amperex (aka CATL)."

"“By 2020 we will offer our customers more than 25 new electric models and more than 20 plug-in hybrids,” Diess told those in attendance at the annual meeting. “In just a few years’ time, then, across all brands and regions, we aim to put the world’s largest fleet of electric vehicles on the road.”"
Volkswagen Doubles EV Battery Order To $48 Billion | CleanTechnica

 

[WannabeOwner]

from their massive $48 billion battery shopping spree I guess

I think I read it was over 5 years? So at $100 per kWh and 100 kWh battery in each vehicle (admittedly favouring long-range drivers) that's less than 1M vehicles per year ... across their whole range - and they have announced lots of models-coming-soon.

... if its a 10-year contract then not-so-good

So even with that big headline number I still think that even VW will be battery-constrained

They may well produce mostly PHEV, and I suppose if they were minimum 50 mile range that would be a huge number of reduced Gas-miles on a larger number of vehicles (say 5M p.a.) compared to making a smaller number of 100% BEV cars (and probably sell easily because no range-anxiety and happy-dealers because actually more maintenance than just-ICE), but the unfortunate owners will still have all the maintenance issues of ICE plus the extra complexity and weight of dual-fuel.

Much as I would prefer a 100% BEV solution, the PHEV with battery good enough for 80% - 90% of journeys, and probably 99% of in-town journeys, would be a good stop-gap for next generation, and hugely reduce pollution and oil-consumption.

 

[rhumbliner]

Having a very high trade surplus means that they must be doing something right knowing their products are is such high demand. That is the basis of capitalism. If you want to do something about it make better products!

Well, let’s not overlook the fact that it also required a bit of lying and cheating:

Volkswagen emissions scandal - Wikipedia

 

[Valore]

I think I read it was over 5 years? So at $100 per kWh and 100 kWh battery in each vehicle (admittedly favouring long-range drivers) that's less than 1M vehicles per year ... across their whole range - and they have announced lots of models-coming-soon.

I really doubt average capacity will be 100kWh per car.

Even the VW E-Golf already has a pretty damn good efficiency at around 200Wh/mi although it's a converted ICE car.
The coming mass market VW Neo will be significantly better in efficiency.
A VW E-Golf with 100kWh battery would be a real world 500mi range (supposed same weight).

 

[Valore]

Well, let’s not overlook the fact that it also required a bit of lying and cheating:

Volkswagen emissions scandal - Wikipedia

Americans still buy a shitload of VW, as is anybody else.

"Car sales from Volkswagen grew by 7.1 per cent in the first half of the year 2018, solidifying the 12-brand group as the world’s largest carmaker. The group, which includes luxury units Porsche and Audi, delivered more than 5.5m cars from January to June, marking its strongest start ever to a year. Last month sales were up 4.1 per cent to 958,600 cars.
In the US, where VW was caught cheating emissions tests in 2015, sales were up 6.3 per cent to 311,900 cars."
Subscribe to read | Financial Times

 

[gavine]

Americans still buy a shitload of VW, as is anybody else.

"Car sales from Volkswagen grew by 7.1 per cent in the first half of the year 2018, solidifying the 12-brand group as the world’s largest carmaker. The group, which includes luxury units Porsche and Audi, delivered more than 5.5m cars from January to June, marking its strongest start ever to a year. Last month sales were up 4.1 per cent to 958,600 cars.
In the US, where VW was caught cheating emissions tests in 2015, sales were up 6.3 per cent to 311,900 cars."
Subscribe to read | Financial Times

Amazing

 

[WannabeOwner]

I really doubt average capacity will be 100kWh per car.

I agree, but as I mused in that post I think smaller battery will be PHEV rather than BEV (which might not be a bad thing). Might well be some "town car" battery-sized BEVs too of course

Conversely I also think that if battery price falls enough, and weight-penalty is not too great, then people will want to buy "worst case range". My real-world range is 220 miles [biggest battery available when I purchased] and I Supercharge two days a month. If I had 300 mile battery that would be once a year, and that would be worth $150 a month (e.g. on finance package) to me. I expect I am prepared to pay more, per month, than Mr and Mrs Average, but equally as battery prices fall that differential will come down. If that's right, those "buyers" will put strain on battery-supply and favour Brands that are not battery constrained.

A VW E-Golf with 100kWh battery would be a real world 500mi range.

Interesting point. So if "efficiency" gets to 200 wH/mi then battery can be much less capacity for same range. Model-3 is 20% more efficient than Model-S - in part better motors. Must be a number of efficiency improvements that will be "discovered" during the next few years. So actually VW's investment, coupled with efficiency improvements, will mean more-miles / less-pollution (although presumably PHEV adds weight [for engine etc.] so some range penalty there).

(supposed same weight).

I don't think that assumption works though (in this 5-year context). If battery density increases then more-battery-for-same-weight-and-size. But until then you will carry more weight, and thus reduce range, but more importantly you need more space, so cannot fit a bigger battery into a small car, and then you need a bigger footprint for the car ... and then also get efficiency loses.