500 mile range Tesla - why not?

[ThosEM]

That is the difference of course. I freely admit that I'm on the outer edge of the market for this car. But... we just went through a brutal winter of pretty regular -20s. And the loss in range was astounding. On one very cold day I left the house with 80% charge. After a day of 130 km of drive, with admittedly a lot of short trips and with the heater operating , I returned home with 24 km of rated range remaining. 400 km my eyeball! Temperatures are floating in and around the zero mark here and even with that I normally get home showing an average consumption of 275 wh/km. Bump the batteries to 120 and it's a totally different game for this vehicle.

The origin of range anxiety is *inconsistency* and *uncertainty* about range, and that can't be addressed by any size of battery in cold weather. Please consider this: dumping electricity into a resistor for heat is *every bit as wasteful* as dumping gasoline into an internal combustion engine for locomotion. An ICE is a wonderful heater but a terrible motivator. And an EV is a wonderful motivator but a terrible heater. Electric heating and combustion motivation are both only about 20% efficient compared with an energy efficient approach. The Model S does a great job of being efficient in locomotion, but it doesn't even have a reversible heat pump, without which electricity is being squandered on resistance heating. Fixing this would be easy, even as a retrofit, and it's a prerequisite for getting the most out of a battery in cold weather.

But even with a heat pump doing the heating in moderate weather, we'd still need auxiliary heat in very cold weather. And I submit that it is wasteful to use electricity for that, and that there is no substitute for combustion to heat things when it is too cold for a heat pump to be effective. A combustion heater should be a part of any cold weather package sold for EVs. The Swedes have developed something called "biogas" that is CO2 neutral by virtue of the consumption of CO2 during its synthesis. Some Scandinavian electric buses are using biogas for heat. But propane is also a very clean-burning fuel that is easily found anywhere there are gas grilles being used. And of course it is easy to find gasoline or diesel, either of which can be burned by a "parking heater." Those are available for after market installation in normal ICE cars, and have also been adapted to EVs by some enterprising owners coping with cold weather.

Bottom line: if we want consistent electric range, we need first, a reversible heat pump for moderate weather; and second, a combustion heater for the really cold stuff.

 

[iadbound]

That is the difference of course. I freely admit that I'm on the outer edge of the market for this car. But... we just went through a brutal winter of pretty regular -20s. And the loss in range was astounding. On one very cold day I left the house with 80% charge. After a day of 130 km of drive, with admittedly a lot of short trips and with the heater operating , I returned home with 24 km of rated range remaining. 400 km my eyeball!

Temperatures are floating in and around the zero mark here and even with that I normally get home showing an average consumption of 275 wh/km.

Bump the batteries to 120 and it's a totally different game for this vehicle.

I think I've solved your problem -- just use the air conditioning! :tongue: Once it's -20, what a little more cold!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The origin of range anxiety is *inconsistency* and *uncertainty* about range, and that can't be addressed by any size of battery in cold weather. Please consider this: dumping electricity into a resistor for heat is *every bit as wasteful* as dumping gasoline into an internal combustion engine for locomotion. An ICE is a wonderful heater but a terrible motivator. And an EV is a wonderful motivator but a terrible heater. Electric heating and combustion motivation are both only about 20% efficient compared with an energy efficient approach. The Model S does a great job of being efficient in locomotion, but it doesn't even have a reversible heat pump, without which electricity is being squandered on resistance heating. Fixing this would be easy, even as a retrofit, and it's a prerequisite for getting the most out of a battery in cold weather.

But even with a heat pump doing the heating in moderate weather, we'd still need auxiliary heat in very cold weather. And I submit that it is wasteful to use electricity for that, and that there is no substitute for combustion to heat things when it is too cold for a heat pump to be effective. A combustion heater should be a part of any cold weather package sold for EVs. The Swedes have developed something called "biogas" that is CO2 neutral by virtue of the consumption of CO2 during its synthesis. Some Scandinavian electric buses are using biogas for heat. But propane is also a very clean-burning fuel that is easily found anywhere there are gas grilles being used. And of course it is easy to find gasoline or diesel, either of which can be burned by a "parking heater." Those are available for after market installation in normal ICE cars, and have also been adapted to EVs by some enterprising owners coping with cold weather.

Bottom line: if we want consistent electric range, we need first, a reversible heat pump for moderate weather; and second, a combustion heater for the really cold stuff.

The Model S directs waste heat from the motor (which needs to be dispersed anyway) to help heat the cabin. Given that use of waste heat, and given that the COP of heat pumps decreases with temperature, I'm not sure how much gain there would be. Yet another question to add to my "things I'll ask JB Straubel if I ever meet him" list.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

The origin of range anxiety is *inconsistency* and *uncertainty* about range, and that can't be addressed by any size of battery in cold weather. Please consider this: dumping electricity into a resistor for heat is *every bit as wasteful* as dumping gasoline into an internal combustion engine for locomotion. An ICE is a wonderful heater but a terrible motivator. And an EV is a wonderful motivator but a terrible heater. Electric heating and combustion motivation are both only about 20% efficient compared with an energy efficient approach. The Model S does a great job of being efficient in locomotion, but it doesn't even have a reversible heat pump, without which electricity is being squandered on resistance heating. Fixing this would be easy, even as a retrofit, and it's a prerequisite for getting the most out of a battery in cold weather.

But even with a heat pump doing the heating in moderate weather, we'd still need auxiliary heat in very cold weather. And I submit that it is wasteful to use electricity for that, and that there is no substitute for combustion to heat things when it is too cold for a heat pump to be effective. A combustion heater should be a part of any cold weather package sold for EVs. The Swedes have developed something called "biogas" that is CO2 neutral by virtue of the consumption of CO2 during its synthesis. Some Scandinavian electric buses are using biogas for heat. But propane is also a very clean-burning fuel that is easily found anywhere there are gas grilles being used. And of course it is easy to find gasoline or diesel, either of which can be burned by a "parking heater." Those are available for after market installation in normal ICE cars, and have also been adapted to EVs by some enterprising owners coping with cold weather.

Bottom line: if we want consistent electric range, we need first, a reversible heat pump for moderate weather; and second, a combustion heater for the really cold stuff.

Over on the Chevy Volt forums, there's actually a thread or two about owners considering using propane heaters in the cars to avoid using the battery for heat.

Actually, I just searched this site and found similar posts!

 

[Johan]

Over on the Chevy Volt forums, there's actually a thread or two about owners considering using propane heaters in the cars to avoid using the battery for heat.

Actually, I just searched this site and found similar posts!

Dude. In EV heaven (Norway) people have been driving diesel heated EVs foeva. It has been a factory option on many models (for example Webasto/Ebersprächer on the MiEV/Zero/Ion).

 

[neroden]

I think Elon has a bit of the California mindset when he talks about the 300 mile range. For the most part 300 works. But in a lot of the world, for a lot of the year you need a lot more than 300 to give you 300.

I would be absolutely thrilled with 300 mile REAL WORLD range in February, with a comfortable cabin and windshield defrost. So in a cold climate that demands a 500 mile battery. With the current battery I would get maybe 120 or 130 miles on a cold January day, running the heat as I would normally on an ICE car.

This. I actually find I can reliably get about 170 miles in my S85. (And I did this through an ice storm. And also at -10 F. Although the top speed was 55 mph, 'cause that's the top speed around here.) But I share your principle here. Of course, the alternative is to space the Superchargers closer together in cold climates. (Which is a perfectly good alternative. Tesla has failed to deploy them at this spacing in upstate NY yet.)

The California mindset has caused Tesla a certain amount of trouble over the years.

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Right. But, I'm assuming that the northern US (and southern Canada by extension) is also intended to be a significant market. Distances are long and winters are cold. Right now the car is very limited for a significant part of the year in those areas.

Yeah. Putting in a lot more Superchargers in the northern US and Canada would be one option -- perhaps an extremely capital-intensive option, though.

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If you had all interstate highways covered along with charging at most hotels I think you would be pretty well covered

Not nearly enough given the 160/170 mile winter range of the car. Also look at how big the gaps are between interstates. You'd need to cover the gaps in between the interstates as well.

and no where near the number of SC's as of gas stations.

You would still have a lot fewer SCs than gas stations, yes.

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That is the difference of course. I freely admit that I'm on the outer edge of the market for this car. But... we just went through a brutal winter of pretty regular -20s.[

Aha. That's why you're down to such a low range...

Temperatures are floating in and around the zero mark here and even with that I normally get home showing an average consumption of 275 wh/km...

That's around 458 wh/mi. Yep, sounds typical for very cold weather. I've been seeing more like 420-430 but it hasn't been going below -10F, and I drive very conservatively.

Bump the batteries to 120 and it's a totally different game for this vehicle.

 

[ggr]

I don't understand why any of this discussion is in the Investments sub-forum.

 

[reddy]

What I would like to see is a connector in the front or back trunk areas to plug in a portable battery pack extender.

Then, when planning long trips, rent an extender pack from the service center.

That way you wouldn't carry that extra weight on regular driving days.

And you would not spend 10k extra, simply rent it for a week or 2.

Kinda like those drop off fuel tanks on old Air Force jets.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

Another large drain on the battery is using the heater. As sandpiper points out, it can greatly impact range. My one-way commute to work is 32 miles. When the heat is on at a low fan setting and cabin temperature set to 66 degrees, I can expect a 9 or 10 mile loss in range on a 32-mile trip. One time, I experienced a 40-mile loss in range on a 90-mile trip! A more efficient system would be welcome. Currently, it is too cold here in NY to think about AC; but I find that using it does not consume as much battery as the heater.

Have you been preheating your car prior to leaving (using the phone app)? If not, most of the energy loss you've been experiencing is the battery heater, not the cabin heater. The cabin will heat up in just a few minutes, while the battery takes much longer. The battery heater draws about the same wattage, but it can take up to 25 minutes to reach nominal battery temp if the car is very cold. So in your situation, if you are not preheating from the phone app, almost the entire commute has the battery heater load going on in the background.

 

[austinEV]

What I would like to see is a connector in the front or back trunk areas to plug in a portable battery pack extender.

Then, when planning long trips, rent an extender pack from the service center.

That way you wouldn't carry that extra weight on regular driving days.

And you would not spend 10k extra, simply rent it for a week or 2.

Kinda like those drop off fuel tanks on old Air Force jets.

I know, right? but they didn't design the car that way so oh well. The answer they always give is the extra weight works against you. Plus liquid heating/cooling is their answer to a lot of safety and longevity issues and there is no way to extend that system to such an extender. *However* I think there was still an opportunity for roadtripping in mild conditions. Basically make it so the extender gets used first so if it gets baked in the back of the car it is at least "empty".

 

[daniel Ox9EFD]

After listening to the q4 2014 call, someone actually asked this exact question. The answer was, from what I understood, a battery upgrade for model S would be around 2019-2020.
This is probably a few years later than what I had in mind, but they are doing the roadster upgrade, which is cool. And if Tesla is not the first manufacturer to go to market with a higher end, higher range EV, so be it. Tesla should probably focus on proving there is a market for EVs and then every niche will be covered.

 

[Danal]

What I would like to see is a connector in the front or back trunk areas to plug in a portable battery pack extender.

Then, when planning long trips, rent an extender pack from the service center.

That way you wouldn't carry that extra weight on regular driving days.

And you would not spend 10k extra, simply rent it for a week or 2.

Kinda like those drop off fuel tanks on old Air Force jets.

Obstacle 1: Tesla packs require active cooling/heating. The "extra" rental pack needs more than an electrical connector... it needs self-sealing, no-leak, coolant connectors as well.

For the sake of generosity, we will assume the battery heating/cooling system in the car need not weigh any more than it does today. We will deal only with the weight of the extra pack. The legal "load limit" sticker in my P85D says "889 Lbs". Me and my wife are 420. Leaves 469. For ease of math, lets assume we have some baggage, and that 400 is available. The pack in my car weighs 1323 Lbs (per this post). That pack will carry the car 253 EPA miles. That's 5.2 pounds of battery per mile. So, 400 Lbs of "extra" battery would add... 76 miles.

The OP wanted a 500 mile Tesla. A connector, plumbing, hassle, load limit imposing extra battery would give him a 329 Mile Tesla. With an unusable back seat (for anything more than Styrofoam). And require some way to get a 400 Lb battery in/out over the tailgate lip.

-or-

13 to 14 minutes of Supercharger to put 76 miles in the pack.

That's why there's no connector.

 

[widodh]

Another reason why I would want a bigger pack is the SuperCharger tapering.

I'm writing this during a 1000km roadtrip from Prague over the German Autobahn.

The distance between each SuC is about 200km, but that's still a 30min charge to get some 70km spare.

On my 85kWh I'm driving with about 55kWh useable because charging to 90% is just to slow.

A bigger pack would taper less and shorten my trip time.

85kWh is fine, but not with all the reserves and the tapering.

A would like a 110kWh pack so I have about 80kWh useable during roadtrips.

 

[blackscraper]

Hey, Elon,

People don't want to drive 25mph for 10 hours straight, but do want to drive 70mph for 4 hours straight. While Model S can't do that now even under the most favorable road conditions. I think there would some solutions to this though.
I would prefer a 110KWH battery with a combustion heater as a package for cold climate. 250-350 real world miles? then why model S is on the lower edge? Come on, Elon, you can do that! Then do it better.
10K option for 110KWH battery, I am ON!

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Don't most of these winter issues disappear if you simply time your charging so that it finishes just before you leave? At that point, the battery is properly pre-heated for your journey.

 

[LucM]

Don't most of these winter issues disappear if you simply time your charging so that it finishes just before you leave? At that point, the battery is properly pre-heated for your journey.

Sure, if you are doing one long trip (not a lot of stops, do something else for an hour or two and the go again....that requires constantly heating up the battery). I did several long trip this winter and I would be hard pressed to get below 195 miles on a charge - that was at 20 - 25 degrees Farenheit. That was without stopping though.

 

[MartinAustin]

The so-called "500 mile battery" would probably be 140KWh or so.

This would get you 300 miles in extremely harsh (cold) climates like Canada and northern USA in the winter time. Or, in warmer climes like Texas, 300+ miles if you wanted to drive more than the pedestrian speeds currently suggested for getting max range out of the current batteries.

So yeah, it's not that necessary in warmer climates where Superchargers are every few miles. But in places where it is darn cold and hilly outside, and Superchargers aren't that close together, a 140KWh battery would be fantastic.

Tesla are just going to ignore it for now, but once the battery tech is available, they will do it.

Also, if any other competing brands do it, Tesla will do it.

 

[Freudianly]

Elon said one or two years ago that they could make a Model S with double the range now, but it would sell for $300,000, because the higher density batteries cost much, much more than the ideal (cost*density) batteries they now use.

 

[blackscraper]

Elon said one or two years ago that they could make a Model S with double the range now, but it would sell for $300,000, because the higher density batteries cost much, much more than the ideal (cost*density) batteries they now use.

Link please

 

[WarpedOne]

Not that the higher density costs more, it may not even be available or have some other negative properties (like cycle/shelf life, temperature preferences etc).
Using same chemistry, the major drawback would be weight, efficiency and performance loss.
85kWh battery weighs some 1200 pounds, half of it in cells, the other half case. 140kWh pack of same cells would weigh in around 2000 pounds. (Lets just ignore space requirements).
Car would end up weighing +6000 pounds. If it is not a tank already a 6000 pound beast would surely be.

I guess we'll see higher capacity packs when they wont weigh much more that 1200 pounds in total.