Would you pay for privately owned superchargers?

[Danal]

It would be VERY tough to convince me to pay, and still have a business model.

Example: My kids live about 400 miles away. I live at a place where I pay .05 to .06 kWh for electric at home. Using that rate... and I know I can't take that rate on the road with me, nonetheless, it is my 'psychological' comparison starting point... the round trip is about $15 in electric cost. There happen to be superchargers on the way (and I waited to order the car until they were announced/permit issued along that route). Those are (operationally) free. So my actual cost is less.

In my mind, I'm going to be VERY reluctant to pay more than about $20 for the whole trip. Leaving the house 'full', I still have to charge at least once going up. If I do not 'destination charge', probably charge twice coming back. So I'd be willing to pay about $7 per session.


I just don't see how any provider can ever do that, and make a profit. In fact, let's arbitrarily double that, and say that I'd be willing to pay $14 at each stop. I'm not saying I'd actually do that... even then, I still don't see much of a business model.

I realize this makes no sense. In the past, I typically drove my wife's pickup on this trip as a balance between "a good road car" and dollars/mile of direct operating cost. Nissan Titan V8. Somewhere in the area of $150 to $200 gas cost, round trip. So why won't I pay, say, 1/3 of that for electricity on the road? I'm not sure I can explain, but I just won't. Once or twice, I drove my SSR. More like $350 gas cost. Still doesn't change my mind about paying for electricity.

 

[Fiver]

I think quite simply if you were a business, you wouldn't want to reach JUST tesla owners. You would want to put in a high power charger that would work with all EV's.

 

[TsRocket]

No. But have bought ChadMo, having said that. And the Roadster 70 amp. Bring on more Superchargers

 

[mmccord]

Essentially, I already do this. Not quite as fast as superchargers, but the only reasonable route from north nj to Pittsburgh is via paid chademo stations. Green lots in budd lake nj and sheetz in state college. Paid $7 in nj and $11 in PA . It also dictated where we ate lunch, so spent another $20 on food at sheetz. All in all, should be win-win for everyone involved.

 

[spottyq]

Not sure I would be ready to pay more than what I pay at home.
My reasoning is that when choosing the car, I paid more upfront with the understanding that it would cost me less to power my car. So, no, I'm not okay to regularly pay the the same price as an ICE to refuel. (If they were no EV, I wouldn't even imagine spending more than 40k€ for a car.)

Now, I'd probably do it once in a while, if it could save me some time/is more convenient. But it would be quite rare I guess.

 

[Panoz]

While I'm not a Tesla owner (yet), I must admit amazement at some of the comments here. In fact, I make the same inquiry as the OP on the Tesla Motors forum about a year ago - I wondered about the viability of owning charging stations just like gas stations with the onslaught of a Model 3.

What amazes me is that many of you are your own Supercharger/L3 network's worst enemy. You drive a $100,000 car but won't pay $15 to fill it up so that you can have an extended trip off the SC network? I find that odd to say the least. Considering $50 was my fill-up cost on my sedan last year, paying half that to keep a Tesla going on a trip is completely reasonable (for me at least).

So don't go to a ballgame because you pay more for a hot dog there than at home....sheesh.

 

[mmccord]

Yeah, I don't quite get it either. Yes, I paid for the supercharger network when I bought the car, but I don't mind the $34 round trip to save myself a few hours of driving. The other option was driving our trailblazer 700 miles which would cost at least 5x as much.

I'm looking forward to superchargers covering this route, but this isn't so bad.

 

[Panoz]

The most likely solution is NOT a separate chain of SC mini-marts. The infrastructure for gasoline stores next to roadways is already in place. The best opportunity is for popular, well-placed gas stations to put a Chademo charger in. Truck stops would be ideal spots as many have restaurants, stores and even hotels/movie theaters in them.

I hope that if a gasoline or truck stop does this, they understand it will NOT work with L2 (or even 40 amp) chargers. Tesla owners will wait 30 minutes or so for trip continuance, but not 3 hours. Go large amperage or go home will be the key.

 

[JohnQ]

If I were driving from Detroit to Houghton, I would absolutely pay $100 bucks each way for a stop in Gaylord and one in Marquette. Because Tesla doesn't cover that area. So, the short answer is yes.

But, what would a private business need to charge to support a SC in those locations? And how many customers would there be? And, though Tesla is unlikely to cover the UP for a while, what happens when they do put in a SC on that route? All of a sudden the business is gone. As Robert.Boston said, most charging is done from home. Even with 500k vehicles on the road, how many are making that particular drive regularly? Sure, there's the weekend traffic to the cottage up north but I'd be stopping at one of the four superchargers slated for the northern lower peninsula.

 

[Twiglett]

The problem for most of these EVSE's that have a fee associated with them is that the fees are outrageous compared to home charging.
Its not like a gas station where you can only compare prices to another gas station, not to residential electricity rates.
What makes it worse is that residential rates are usually higher than commercial, which tips the scales even further.
Chargepoint around here are charging $2 per hour for L2, so $2 for 25 miles.
Their fees are based on time, not power used. Imagine gas stations charging for how many seconds it took to fill up!
The payment issues are what makes Superchargers so interesting. By making them prepaid and rolling the cost into the car, in effect "free", the market for paid Supercharging is DOA.
However, I'm sure there is a market for "sponsoring" a Supercharger site. Face it, you will make way more money from the store next to a Supercharger than you will from the electricity usage fees.
[edit]
Just watched that Chargepoint video - don't set a business model on charging for electrons

 

[David99]

What amazes me is that many of you are your own Supercharger/L3 network's worst enemy. You drive a $100,000 car but won't pay $15 to fill it up so that you can have an extended trip off the SC network? I find that odd to say the least. Considering $50 was my fill-up cost on my sedan last year, paying half that to keep a Tesla going on a trip is completely reasonable (for me at least).

So don't go to a ballgame because you pay more for a hot dog there than at home....sheesh.

This is just a discussion forum, not reality. Tesla owners are definitely willing to pay. They just don't want to admit it here LOL
The CHAdeMO adapter is selling very well for $450 a piece. At that price you don't even get anything yet. You just get access to a DC charger, you still have to pay for the charging sessions and most locations. So clearly Model S owners are willing to pay to charge. But, as I said in my comment before, it depends on the location. If I'm withing the car's range of my home, I won't pay. If it's way out there and there are no other options, I will. 80% of my driving is done withing reach of my home, though.
A charging location can also be a convenience. If there is a free charger 20 miles out of my way and one directly on my route that I have to pay for, I might take the payed option, especially if I'm with my family and don't want to waste everyone's time to save $18 (or whatever).

Simply put, if there is some added value or convenience with charging at a specific location, people are willing to pay. They pick a more expensive hotel that has a charger, they pay for valet parking if it includes charging, if the charger is in a very convenient parking location people will pay for charging to get that spot. Many cases ...

 

[Larry Chanin]

While I'm not a Tesla owner (yet), I must admit amazement at some of the comments here. In fact, I make the same inquiry as the OP on the Tesla Motors forum about a year ago - I wondered about the viability of owning charging stations just like gas stations with the onslaught of a Model 3.

What amazes me is that many of you are your own Supercharger/L3 network's worst enemy. You drive a $100,000 car but won't pay $15 to fill it up so that you can have an extended trip off the SC network? I find that odd to say the least. Considering $50 was my fill-up cost on my sedan last year, paying half that to keep a Tesla going on a trip is completely reasonable (for me at least).

So don't go to a ballgame because you pay more for a hot dog there than at home....sheesh.

This is just a discussion forum, not reality. Tesla owners are definitely willing to pay. They just don't want to admit it here LOL
The CHAdeMO adapter is selling very well for $450 a piece. At that price you don't even get anything yet. You just get access to a DC charger, you still have to pay for the charging sessions and most locations. So clearly Model S owners are willing to pay to charge. But, as I said in my comment before, it depends on the location. If I'm withing the car's range of my home, I won't pay. If it's way out there and there are no other options, I will. 80% of my driving is done withing reach of my home, though.
A charging location can also be a convenience. If there is a free charger 20 miles out of my way and one directly on my route that I have to pay for, I might take the payed option, especially if I'm with my family and don't want to waste everyone's time to save $18 (or whatever).

Simply put, if there is some added value or convenience with charging at a specific location, people are willing to pay. They pick a more expensive hotel that has a charger, they pay for valet parking if it includes charging, if the charger is in a very convenient parking location people will pay for charging to get that spot. Many cases ...

As David astutely states, sure most of us will pay in certain circumstances depending on the location.

To be clear, my earlier point is not that I won't pay, but rather it is unwise for someone to try to start a business based on paying for Supercharging when Tesla is rapidly expanding a FREE Supercharger network.

Even free Supercharging ceases to be attractive if you have to wait in a line behind a dozen Model Ss. I would absolutely pay $60+ to jump the line at a congested Supercharger Station to get a Battery Swap if needed.

In fairness, what many of us are saying is not that we won't pay for charging, but that we prefer Tesla's charging business model over the "pay at the pump" business model. As was pointed out, we are paying, but we are paying upfront in the cost of the vehicle.

Larry

 

[bonnie]

I'd pay if I needed a charge and that was the best option available.

And I also expect Tesla to continue to build out their network. But I'd applaud private operators building out private 'for pay' superchargers. Market economics will set the price and prove viability. Those that don't ever want to pay, won't. Just like the trial battery swap station. There are other options available - but if you're in a hurry (in the case of the swap station), pay a fee and go. Otherwise wait while you charge.

Same thing with private places to charge. If you can charge for free at a slower rate in some places or for a fee at a higher rate - some will pay, some won't. Free market!

 

[jerry33]

As David astutely states, sure most of us will pay in certain circumstances depending on the location.

To be clear, my earlier point is not that I won't pay, but rather it is unwise for someone to try to start a business based on paying for Supercharging when Tesla is rapidly expanding a FREE Supercharger network.

Even free Supercharging ceases to be attractive if you have to wait in a line behind a dozen Model Ss. I would absolutely pay $60+ to jump the line at a congested Supercharger Station to get a Battery Swap if needed.

In fairness, what many of us are saying is not that we won't pay for charging, but that we prefer Tesla's charging business model over the "pay at the pump" business model. As was pointed out, we are paying, but we are paying upfront in the cost of the vehicle.

Larry

^^^This. I might add that traditionally almost all pay and free EVSEs (other than Superchargers and EVSEs located at hotels, Sun Country, etc.) are located where they are not attractive to Tesla owners except in an emergency. This makes the perception of an EVSE-for-profit appear worse than it is (and the economics are not good to start with).

EVSE-for-profit (assume Supercharger equivalent with eight stalls):

Capital cost $250k, ten year life.

Gross profit expected: 15% of capital cost each year

Yearly sales volume needed: ($250,000*0.15) + $25,000 = $62,500 / 365 days ~= $172 per day / 8 stalls ~= $21.50 per stall per day

Note that this model assumes solar panels and batteries are included in the $250k so that electric cost is zero. It doesn't include rent paid to the property owner.

Now it's pretty obvious that a busy location charging $10 per half hour (half hour minimum) could easily make 15%. But if a network is being built, picking only busy locations isn't an option, and if the sites are mooching (possibly not the best term) off the Tesla Supercharger overflow even a busy location may not be that busy. I suspect there are many SC locations that don't average five cars a day.

If the EVSEs are "universal" rather than Tesla specific the potential market is increased, but in many areas where an SC is needed by Tesla owners, the potential local market isn't that big (someplace like Perry, OK). There's a case to be made to have SCs near apartments and condos for rapid charging for those who don't have charging outlets where they park, but that market will go down as more multi-family dwelling units put in charging points, and many people are not going to put up with the inconveniences of paying to charge their car and having to wait while it charges (no cost charging mitigates the wait to a certain extent).

 

[Danal]

~= $21.50 per stall per day

Which was right about what I said I might, in a pinch, pay, for a single charge session. It is actually a tiny bit more than my original 'mental math', but on further pondering, I might be willing.

So maybe this could work...

 

[Cosmacelf]

I would definitely use a for pay Supercharger if I needed one for a trip, indeed I've already used a for pay Chademo charger, and was glad to have it.

However I think the economics are tenuous at best as Jerry outlined above. Jerry also didn't take into account maintenace costs which aren't trivial.

Since Teslas are now compatible with Chademo, any for pay charging station would install a Chademo rather than Tesla to effectively double their customer base.

 

[Twiglett]

and like the Chargepoint guy says - most gas stations make so little on selling gas, their profit is from selling snickers

 

[jgs]

1. I agree with the other people making the point that the real issue is whether there's a good business case for Supercharging as a profit center instead of a loss leader. There are many reasons to think it might not be. Let me add one more: Tesla has (almost by definition of the SC network) staked out all the heaviest-traffic sites with "real" SCs, and will continue to do so. Any off-brand sites would therefore have to derive their revenue from lower volume traffic.
2. The thread title is kind of amusing -- the entire Supercharger network is privately owned! "Third-party" would probably have been closer to OP's intended meaning.

 

[beeeerock]

I often do engineering work for a large format retail developer. The logical question I asked on the last project was "Have you ever considered adding EV charging capability, especially for Tesla?" With the wide variety of tenants they lease too, the potential benefit for a fast food or coffee shop or restaurant was obvious.

The answer was 'yes', but they weren't interested for the simple reason that there is no financial incentive in the deal, other than what might be associated with attracting additional captive customers. This is because Tesla doesn't actually lease the space, or so I've been told. See link:

http://insideevs.com/tech-crunch-what-it-takes-to-be-a-tesla-supercharger-partner/

When you are always maximizing your floor space with the requirements for parking stall ratios and landscape areas in order to meet development permit requirements, providing dedicated stalls without a tangible benefit is a tough sell. If local authorities were willing to count the stalls as regular parking, or forgive some landscaping in exchange for them, there might me more traction. But so far, the development world (in Canada at least) hasn't caught up to this new reality.

 

[Danal]

Gas stations that are stores that are large enough to benefit from someone being around for 40 minutes... they should install a couple of "universal" EV bays. That would be really something, wouldn't it? One roof, with pumps and plugs?