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mknox
Well-Known Member
Supercharger Thoughts
I'm super excited about the Supercharger stations, and look forward to rollouts in Canada and (hopefully) in the Toronto to Chicago corridor so I can visit my daughter by car.
I am, however, curious about the proprietary nature of the system. Musk has always said Tesla's goal is to promote EVs in general, and is on record as saying that even if Tesla fails, but EV adoption goes up, it's a success.
So, does it make sense to have charging stations that only work with one brand of car? Why would Tesla not support something like the CHAdeMO fast charging standard? They could still provide free charging to their customers as an incentive, but at the same time be providing an infrastructure that supports Musk's vision, and maybe even make a little money by charging non-Tesla owners for use.
I'm super excited about the Supercharger stations, and look forward to rollouts in Canada and (hopefully) in the Toronto to Chicago corridor so I can visit my daughter by car.
I am, however, curious about the proprietary nature of the system. Musk has always said Tesla's goal is to promote EVs in general, and is on record as saying that even if Tesla fails, but EV adoption goes up, it's a success.
So, does it make sense to have charging stations that only work with one brand of car? Why would Tesla not support something like the CHAdeMO fast charging standard? They could still provide free charging to their customers as an incentive, but at the same time be providing an infrastructure that supports Musk's vision, and maybe even make a little money by charging non-Tesla owners for use.
I'd ask the question the other way. If you have an 85 kWh Model S, is any other charger really usable for trips? My guess is that if there were other cars with large capacity batteries, then either there would already be a standard or Elon would have made them to work with those cars as well.
I have tried to reach out to Tesla regarding the supercharger some time ago. We at Rimac Automobili would rather use this than some other protocols but no luck yet (no response)... I know they are busy so I fully understand (we have a hard time keeping up with the incoming requests too).
However, if someone from Tesla is reading this and thinks we could make it happen - let us know
Disclaimer: IMO - Rimac is not competing with Tesla. We believe that our competitors are Bugatti, Pagani and Koenigsegg.
However, if someone from Tesla is reading this and thinks we could make it happen - let us know
Disclaimer: IMO - Rimac is not competing with Tesla. We believe that our competitors are Bugatti, Pagani and Koenigsegg.
I would bet they also did t want to let anyone else in on their plans before the reveal. If they allowed you to use the SC, then you'd be using their whole charging setup as well right? People can buy hpwcs to use with your car.
It seems pretty simple to me. They don't let others charge so it's free (both beer and seat) to Tesla owners.
If it allowed shorter range charging Tesla owners could end up getting PEVed. Charging speed depends on the battery size and consequently other vehicles would be there more and for longer each time.
If it allowed shorter range charging Tesla owners could end up getting PEVed. Charging speed depends on the battery size and consequently other vehicles would be there more and for longer each time.
sp4rk
Banned
Is it really ignorance? Or petroleum industry trolls being paid to confuse the "public"?
ToddRLockwood
Active Member
I think the Supercharger runs the risk of becoming another "Betamax" if they keep it a closed system. It will simply give a larger player, like GM or Ford, the incentive to create their own high voltage standard. The Beta/VHS lesson is an important one. Sony shortsightedly tried to create a revenue stream from the Beta video cassette standard, while JVC allowed cassette manufacturers to use the VHS standard for free. The rest is history. The money in VHS was made in hardware licenses. Tesla could do the same thing, while getting the participating companies to help pay for the network.
Ironically, Beta was a technically superior standard, like the Supercharger is.
Ironically, Beta was a technically superior standard, like the Supercharger is.
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I hardly think Engadget (a tech blog) writers are in the pocket of the oil industry. You give them too much credit. If anything their opinion is shaped by the kind of thing Todd mentions above.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Yep, Jack @ The Berry Patch in Orland swore that a Leaf was charging off the Tesla HPC with an adaptor. He said he had a pic, but didn't have it handy. I should try contacting him and seeing if I can get him to email the pic to me.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
CHAdeMO only goes to 65kW; and in fact many installed chargers are well under that, like 48kW. There are other aesthetic, technical and usability downsides to CHAdeMO, but the main reason (IMO) Tesla didn't go with CHAdeMO is that it's not fast enough. That was a deal-breaker.
CHAdeMO (at least in the US) is only used by Nissan and Mitsubishi. And there are no other standards--the SAE keeps threatening to create one, but they are representing automakers that don't have any fast-charge-capable cars near market, so they are in no hurry. I would really, really, really love to see all the automakers get together and do the right thing for their customers and pick a single standard, but Tesla really didn't have a choice here. They had to create their own system, and they created a great one.
I suspect Tesla would be open to licensing their charging system; in addition to a per-car fee, other automakers would have to agree to build out the Supercharger network in relation to their EV sales. I would love to see that; it would work out great for owners, and help grow the market. Other automakers are probably not excited about paying/working with/encouraging Tesla though, and will probably use something else. Sigh.
CHAdeMO (at least in the US) is only used by Nissan and Mitsubishi. And there are no other standards--the SAE keeps threatening to create one, but they are representing automakers that don't have any fast-charge-capable cars near market, so they are in no hurry. I would really, really, really love to see all the automakers get together and do the right thing for their customers and pick a single standard, but Tesla really didn't have a choice here. They had to create their own system, and they created a great one.
I suspect Tesla would be open to licensing their charging system; in addition to a per-car fee, other automakers would have to agree to build out the Supercharger network in relation to their EV sales. I would love to see that; it would work out great for owners, and help grow the market. Other automakers are probably not excited about paying/working with/encouraging Tesla though, and will probably use something else. Sigh.
I would agree here, except no other automaker besides Nissan is interested in Ev's. By the time they they realize EV's are the future, it will be too late.
ToddRLockwood
Active Member
The other companies might not recognize it right away, but when Tesla releases its Gen III sedan, I think they'll begin to see the light. Mercedes and Toyota are already incorporating Tesla technology into their new EVs. I guess the big question for Tesla is whether they want to license their battery technology.
Tommy
Member
Remember, Tesla's goal is to provide fossil free produced electricity for trips driven in the S. That won't be possible if Tesla allowed other manufacturers EV's to charge at these spots as they would be in use almost constantly (a net grid negative instead of positive). That means much larger solar array's on site and probably many more off site, a large expense for Tesla.. Tesla is taking the right approach to limit charging to the S; they can truly state one of the arguments against EV's (long tail pipe) has been eliminated, at least using their brand. It's a compelling argument and one other manufacturers will emulate to stay competitive.
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ToddRLockwood
Active Member
That's true, but if Tesla gets other manufacturers to help pay for the Supercharger Network, they could build many more locations and reduce the possibility of a competing high voltage standard. Imagine if there were 500 of them! It would be like finding the nearest Starbucks.
W.Petefish
Active Member
Tesla was in on the SAE standards development, but had its proposals and requirements rejected. As Elon said (shareholders' mtg. Q&A ?) the SAE standards "sucked", so TM went its own way.
As far as "sharing", the SCs put out 100A at 440V, and would crisp Leafs and Volts like moths in a bonfire. Their problem. The CHaDMo power levels are about ¼ the SCs. So access to them is not much better than using a Dual Charger.
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Zero $$. That's all Solar City. They install the arrays and sell the power from them back to the utilities, and pay for the grid power that drives the chargers. They install more than enough arrays (overall) to match demand, and so earn a profit.
TM just gives Solar City the "franchise" and doesn't pay a cent for the arrays or the power.
As far as "sharing", the SCs put out 100A at 440V, and would crisp Leafs and Volts like moths in a bonfire. Their problem. The CHaDMo power levels are about ¼ the SCs. So access to them is not much better than using a Dual Charger.
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Zero $$. That's all Solar City. They install the arrays and sell the power from them back to the utilities, and pay for the grid power that drives the chargers. They install more than enough arrays (overall) to match demand, and so earn a profit.
TM just gives Solar City the "franchise" and doesn't pay a cent for the arrays or the power.
No, they don't. They put out 360V (Model S nominal battery voltage) at ~250A. It's not as much "high voltage" as it is "high amperage".
True, the voltage will rise above battery nominal, for a max of about 390V or so, but nowhere near 440V or 480V. Maybe in a future car they will choose a higher battery voltage.
mnx
2018 M3P
That would be great if Tesla let Rimac use their charging design! It would be pretty awesome to pull up to a supercharger and see a Rimac in one of the "charging bays". (that way I could probably get a ride in one)
I have tried to reach out to Tesla regarding the supercharger some time ago. We at Rimac Automobili would rather use this than some other protocols but no luck yet (no response)... I know they are busy so I fully understand (we have a hard time keeping up with the incoming requests too).
However, if someone from Tesla is reading this and thinks we could make it happen - let us know
Disclaimer: IMO - Rimac is not competing with Tesla. We believe that our competitors are Bugatti, Pagani and Koenigsegg.
It's my understanding that Tesla is on the SAE standards board, and at least one of their engineers has said that SC and SAE are compatible electrically and control protocol-wise. That means and SAE to Tesla adapter would be like the J1772, very dumb and mostly mechanical.
As far as the SC frying a Leaf or vice-versa, that's what the charging command protocol makes sure doesn't happen. In all the protocols, the car and charger negotiate things like the maximum voltage the car can handle. Then, in real time, the car tells the controller exactly how much current to supply, and the voltage varies to supply the commanded current. If the car and charger speak the same protocol, nothing is going to get fried.
However, the command protocol is the main problem with CHAdeMO to Tesla or SAE. The protocols are not only logically different, they use different technologies, so they can't even hear each other much less understand what is being said. To build an adapter, it would have to have a protocol translator, which is certainly not impossible, but would increase the cost.
It looks like a lot of public stations will be installed with both CHAdeMO and SAE plugs as the incremental cost of doing so is very small. If that's happens, Tesla is going to be under a lot of pressure to produce an SAE adapter and adjust the cars' software to speak SAE. The SC stations may stay Tesla only, but Tesla owners are going to insist on being able to plug into public SAE chargers since there likely be many more of them. If Tesla were going to make the SC stations generally available, I'd think they'd use SAE plugs.
As far as the SC frying a Leaf or vice-versa, that's what the charging command protocol makes sure doesn't happen. In all the protocols, the car and charger negotiate things like the maximum voltage the car can handle. Then, in real time, the car tells the controller exactly how much current to supply, and the voltage varies to supply the commanded current. If the car and charger speak the same protocol, nothing is going to get fried.
However, the command protocol is the main problem with CHAdeMO to Tesla or SAE. The protocols are not only logically different, they use different technologies, so they can't even hear each other much less understand what is being said. To build an adapter, it would have to have a protocol translator, which is certainly not impossible, but would increase the cost.
It looks like a lot of public stations will be installed with both CHAdeMO and SAE plugs as the incremental cost of doing so is very small. If that's happens, Tesla is going to be under a lot of pressure to produce an SAE adapter and adjust the cars' software to speak SAE. The SC stations may stay Tesla only, but Tesla owners are going to insist on being able to plug into public SAE chargers since there likely be many more of them. If Tesla were going to make the SC stations generally available, I'd think they'd use SAE plugs.
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