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Will Model 3 truly be 'mass market'?

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It's not going to replace the Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla, etc. That's for certain. Tesla just doesn't have the capability to build that many, and the mass market segment is very price sensitive where a few thousand dollars makes a huge difference.

Honestly, it makes sense for Tesla's long term success to keep the ASP up considerably above $35,000 and make money they can reinvest in future products. There is nothing wrong with Tesla staying a manufacturer of premium electric vehicles for the foreseeable future.
 
It's not going to replace the Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla, etc. That's for certain. Tesla just doesn't have the capability to build that many, and the mass market segment is very price sensitive where a few thousand dollars makes a huge difference.

Honestly, it makes sense for Tesla's long term success to keep the ASP up considerably above $35,000 and make money they can reinvest in future products. There is nothing wrong with Tesla staying a manufacturer of premium electric vehicles for the foreseeable future.

Agree. I'd much prefer Tesla stay a premium BEV company and compete directly with BMW and Audi on the less expensive but still premium cars.
 
I'm going to refer to a post of mine in another thread.
The importance of price to sales

Here is a chart of 2013 car sales bucketed by MSRP.

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In 2013 the total vehicle market in the US was about 16 million.
For cars that start at $70K MSRP, my best guess from this data is that the total market in the US is about 140,000 - 160,000 vehicles.
For $60K MSRP and up the total market is about 250,000 - 300,000 vehicles.
For $35K MSRP and up the total market is about 1.7 - 2 million vehicles.

The market for $35K MSRP and up vehicles is 10-15x bigger than the one the Model S plays in now.


when i look at america's top selling vehicle Ford F150
2015 Ford F-150 | F-150 Models | Ford.com

base msrp is $25k but mid trim is $38,700, top trim $51,000
 
What if we think of the Prius as an model of how this can be done. Isn't it the top selling PHEV in the world? Didn't they lose money, selling it lower than it cost for awhile? Tesla may need to do that on the base model. And if you have those getting the premium features (think P85D and it's additional price, which is pretty high over what you get on an 85D) make up for some of that loss, you can have the top selling BEV in a Model 3 in ten years (I should write, "top selling BEV FOR the next ten years at least"). And in 2020 or 2021, with new battery technology, you can come out with a 200 mile Model C that is Yaris sized and Tesla made and designed.
 
What if we think of the Prius as an model of how this can be done. Isn't it the top selling PHEV in the world? Didn't they lose money, selling it lower than it cost for awhile? Tesla may need to do that on the base model. And if you have those getting the premium features (think P85D and it's additional price, which is pretty high over what you get on an 85D) make up for some of that loss, you can have the top selling BEV in a Model 3 in ten years (I should write, "top selling BEV FOR the next ten years at least"). And in 2020 or 2021, with new battery technology, you can come out with a 200 mile Model C that is Yaris sized and Tesla made and designed.

You meant HEV.

It's not appropriate for Tesla. Model 3 is the next phase and needs to make Tesla into a profitable company so they can't sell base Model 3 at a loss. The best they could do to lower its price would be to figure out the core set of options, and then consider the base model as additional sales and use marginal pricing on it.
 
You meant HEV.

It's not appropriate for Tesla. Model 3 is the next phase and needs to make Tesla into a profitable company so they can't sell base Model 3 at a loss. The best they could do to lower its price would be to figure out the core set of options, and then consider the base model as additional sales and use marginal pricing on it.

I agree but I bet the bare bones base Model 3 will be at a very low margin knowing that most buyers will add options which is where Tesla will make their money. I doubt many will buy the bare bones version but there will be some pressure on Tesla to offer it. Will be interesting to see if it goes the way of the Model S 40kWh which listed for $57,499 and then was discontinued for lack of interest. Will probably depend on the difference in cost for the higher cost battery.
 
I doubt many will buy the bare bones version but there will be some pressure on Tesla to offer it.
I was surprised that recently Musk even commented that Model 3 would be cheaper than Bolt. That would indicate he is really set on $35k. That model will come with a steering wheel, doors and tires. But that's about it.

May be they'll pull the old trick of not offering supercharger option unless upgraded to a higher range model. That would kill the base model, just like it did with 40 kWh model.
 
May be they'll pull the old trick of not offering supercharger option unless upgraded to a higher range model. That would kill the base model, just like it did with 40 kWh model.

I do not expect the base Model 3 to include Supercharging capability, just like the base Model S does not. Nothing wrong with that. The base Bolt will not include that capability, and neither will a fully optioned Bolt since GM will not have a high speed nationwide charging network anyway!
The base 3 will be much like a base S60: a great car with a usable 200 mile range, some very nice features as standard but not all the bells and whistles.
 
Depends on how you define Mass Market. If your definition of Mass Market includes the BMW3 series, the Audi A4/5 Line and the Mercedes C Class then it will be Mass Market. If Not then it will not be Mass Market. The Model 3 will NOT compete with Toyota Carrolla or Yaris or Camary, The Nissan Sentra, Chevy Prius and other likes of smaller cars with big production lines. Just MHO.
 
What is also surprising about the S is how many buyers are spending significantly more than they ever have on a car (that includes me). The Model S is so compelling that many people are willing to go outside their comfort zone and stretch to buy it.

I predict he same thing will happen with the Model 3. Sure it's base price is predicted to be higher than the average new car selling price in America, but if it is truly compelling many people will pay that.

True in my case. For an average car, my top end price is probably around $40K, and I typically aim for more like $30K. For a Tesla, I'd be willing to swing up to $90K, though ideally, I'd like to keep it closer to $60K. Big difference.
 
I do not expect the base Model 3 to include Supercharging capability, just like the base Model S does not. Nothing wrong with that. The base Bolt will not include that capability, and neither will a fully optioned Bolt since GM will not have a high speed nationwide charging network anyway!
The base 3 will be much like a base S60: a great car with a usable 200 mile range, some very nice features as standard but not all the bells and whistles.

Depends on your definition of "Supercharging." If you're talking about Tesla's proprietary netowork, then you're right. But I fully expect the Bolt and other future EVs coming from GM or most other mfrs. to have either CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo DC fast-charging capability, most likely standard.
 
Depends on your definition of "Supercharging." If you're talking about Tesla's proprietary netowork, then you're right. But I fully expect the Bolt and other future EVs coming from GM or most other mfrs. to have either CHAdeMO or J1772 Combo DC fast-charging capability, most likely standard.

This is less about the car's hardware (which I think you'll be proven correct about) than the supporting network of stations.

Very few roadtrips can be made on CCS or CHAdeMO today - and even if someone rolls out a large network (I've seen no evidence of it happening,) the standards are limited to 50kW, which makes for rather long charge times for a 200 mile EV.

Another issue is that AFAIK currently most DCFC stations outside of Tesla in the US seem to be charging more or less gasoline equivalent amounts for the privilege of charging kinda-sorta quickly. This isn't horrendous, but if they are competing with Tesla's "free forever with initial buy in" model it probably won't hold up well, especially if Tesla can hold onto enough of a feature/image advantage that the cars with buy in seem to be better values than the competitors (as I expect they will.)
Walter
 
Depends on how you define Mass Market. If your definition of Mass Market includes the BMW3 series, the Audi A4/5 Line and the Mercedes C Class then it will be Mass Market. If Not then it will not be Mass Market. The Model 3 will NOT compete with Toyota Carrolla or Yaris or Camary, The Nissan Sentra, Chevy Prius and other likes of smaller cars with big production lines. Just MHO.
Surely you meant Toyota Prius. ;) And that's my definition of mass market. The biggest selling vehicle of any when it comes to those containing a traction battery. It's a lofty goal of course and probably not attainable until the next decade.
 
I doubt BMW ever sell a "base" model. A quick look at the local dealer inventory shows zero base models. Every one on the lot is full of nice expensive options which add at least 10K to the cost. Obviously the dealers make sure to never order cars without a bunch of options.
So the big question is will the Model3 still be on online order and a customer config, or stuck with the current (for everyone else) dealer order method.
 
Surely you meant Toyota Prius. ;) And that's my definition of mass market. The biggest selling vehicle of any when it comes to those containing a traction battery. It's a lofty goal of course and probably not attainable until the next decade.

of course. I think I meant to put a comma in there actually. Do you mean the Prius is what you consider Mass Market ? They sell about 17 K of those a month. I think TM is aiming for about half that amount with the Model 3. And BMW sells about 12 K 3 & 4 series per month.
 
Yes, exactly. So by 2017 they should be halfway there or getting close. I have to get my finances in order if I have any hopes of participating in the first wave. I'm not sure it's going to be feasible. Though inherently risky, TSLA stock might be one way to expedite it. ;)
 
Yes, exactly. So by 2017 they should be halfway there or getting close. I have to get my finances in order if I have any hopes of participating in the first wave. I'm not sure it's going to be feasible. Though inherently risky, TSLA stock might be one way to expedite it. ;)

I want to be in the first wave too but I doubt I will be willing to forgo my convertible to do it so I will probably have to wait.
 
No. Not in the UK anyway. I consider mass market what the majority of people would buy or can afford. Imho based on the most popular cars in the UK http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/85843/best-selling-cars-2014 and in the area I live I would say that price is £15,000 or $22,700. Which is roughly the cost of a Leaf. So Tesla has got to do some cost cutting to take 10k off of the model 3 to be mass marketable.

Or sell a 4th model, the Model C, a small hatchback with basic features, which is truly mass marketable.:cool:

due to the borderline scammy car insurances and slightly higher car prices ( isn't the model s almost 1 : 1 pounds to euro) the UK lacks a proper middle class car segment, which is probably why the the price is lower...
 
I agree but I bet the bare bones base Model 3 will be at a very low margin knowing that most buyers will add options which is where Tesla will make their money. I doubt many will buy the bare bones version but there will be some pressure on Tesla to offer it. Will be interesting to see if it goes the way of the Model S 40kWh which listed for $57,499 and then was discontinued for lack of interest. Will probably depend on the difference in cost for the higher cost battery.
I believe that fleet sales to government agencies, leases to businesses, and acquistions by taxi services will be the primary purchasers of the basic black or white base version of the Model ≡. Most individuals will not have the discipline to forgo adding the extra goodies. Besides, others will get the entry level car, with about $10,000-$15,000 in options added to it, rather than a performance version. There will be a significant enough quantity of buyers, 10%-15% to warrant it stays around.

I was surprised that recently Musk even commented that Model 3 would be cheaper than Bolt. That would indicate he is really set on $35k. That model will come with a steering wheel, doors and tires. But that's about it.
No. Compare the BMW 320i trim and feature set to the Toyota Camry LE. They are practically identical, but the BMW commands a $10,000 premium. All the BMW really has in its favor is the allure of RWD for performance enthusiasts. They have about the same HP ratings, even though the Camry is normally aspirated and the 320i is turbocharged. If a Camry sort of interior trim is acceptable on an entry-level BMW, it will be fine in a Tesla.
May be they'll pull the old trick of not offering supercharger option unless upgraded to a higher range model. That would kill the base model, just like it did with 40 kWh model.
Precisely why they will not resort to such shenanigans. The Model S 60 has been discontinued, replaced by the Model S 70D as the base. Every current Tesla Motors product now includes Supercharger access standard. I expect the same will be true of Model X. That will carry over to a Model ≡ 60 as well. Exactly as I predicted last year.
The base 3 will be much like a base S60: a great car with a usable 200 mile range, some very nice features as standard but not all the bells and whistles.
Pretty much. Just that at a significantly lower weight, and using a refined, more efficient motor, combined with improved power electronics, the Model ≡ 60 will end up with an EPA rated 225-250 mile range. And Supercharger access will not be optional, but standard, for the sake of simplicity, convenience, and affordability.
Depends on how you define Mass Market. If your definition of Mass Market includes the BMW3 series, the Audi A4/5 Line and the Mercedes C Class then it will be Mass Market.
Actually, I group them as A3/A4, A5/A6, & A7/A8... ;-) But yeah, A4, ATS, IS/ES, Q50, 328i/335i, C-Class/CSA-Class, et al will be primary competitors. I believe that Elon Musk used the qualifiers low volume, mid-volume, and high volume when referring to the planned Tesla Generations.
If Not then it will not be Mass Market. The Model 3 will NOT compete with Toyota Carrolla or Yaris or Camary, The Nissan Sentra, Chevy Prius and other likes of smaller cars with big production lines. Just MHO.
Tesla Motors will find buyers from a wider range of potential customers than most anticipate. By targeting the Premium market, they offer products that people aspire to own. With a bit of research, many will realize that instead of a 'some day' purchase, a Tesla can be a 'right now' acquisition, instead.