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Why AP 2.0 Won't Be Here Soon, and It Won't Be What You Think It Is

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Tesla will have “FSD” when they buy it from a capable supplier. Not a day sooner.

So if someone comes up with a better product and Tesla buys it there's something wrong with that? You do know Facebook bought Instagram? Does that make Instagram superior to Facebook? And if so, who cares? Not Facebook -- they own it.

This forum is not about insults but even if it was you really need to think before you attempt an insult. Just the fact that Tesla can buy it from a "capable supplier' is a compliment, although we all know you meant it as an attempt at an insult.

Please try to move the conversation forward. Your constant negativity is getting old.
 
[will it] require hardware that will be on cars coming out just prior to that time, and not the current hardware in use?
If you consider the rate at which relevant hardware is advancing, if you knew you weren't going to get the entire system out for at least two years would you base it on today's already-a-couple-of-years-old hardware? People building really cutting-edge systems like this often need to assume that the hardware is going to continue to advance while they develop the system and software and then when the actual hardware comes out they have to scramble to adapt their in-progress design to its specifics. It's a high-risk game, but one you have to play if your system development cycle is significantly longer than the cycle for key hardware components, lest your competition's hardware be a generation ahead of yours.
 
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There is a lot of speculation that Autopilot 2.0 is imminent--perhaps coming within a quarter or two. There's also a lot of speculation that Autopilot 2.0 will be capable of level 4 autonomy.

I'm going to put myself out there and say: Not a chance.

I should "color" this opinion, as the financial analysts like to put it, by stating that:
  1. I am a huge Tesla fan
  2. I am a huge Elon Musk fan
  3. I am a fan of technology
  4. I am a happy early Model S adopter (reservation January 2010, first S delivered Dec. 2012).
But this forum tends to be the king of manufacturing unrealistic expectations. I'll summarize this post right off the bat by saying the following: If you are putting off a Tesla purchase waiting for autonomous driving, you're wasting your time.

You will probably not see AP 2.0 hardware for another few quarters at the very earliest. And that's being optimistic.

You will not see AP 2.0 (what I am using to characterize level 4 autonomy) for about 5 years. And that's being VERY optimistic, even keeping in mind the blindingly fast pace Tesla is moving with this technology.

You will not see level 3 autonomy from Tesla for at least 2 years. And that's being optimistic.

Let me explain.

Autopilot has been out for a year now. While improvements have been remarkable, think about the basic highway driving scenarios that aren't handled yet.

1. Every time I crest a hill, my car dives for the left or right side of the road unless I'm following another car.
2. Every time the lane markings fade, the car drifts and I have to take over.
3. Every time I pass an entrance ramp with cars merging, I have to take control. AP does not handle sequencing itself with merging vehicles.
4. Every time I'm merging myself, I have to take control. The car cannot sequence itself to merge onto the highway.
5. The car does not automatically change lanes to maintain a target speed.
6. The car does not avoid large road obstructions.
7. The car does not move laterally to avoid parked cars on the shoulder, bicyclists, or pedestrians.
8. The car is not always clear about which lane a car ahead is in. Sometimes TACC slows for a car in an adjacent lane.
9. If a car cuts in front of you, the braking is later than most would consider to be comfortable.
10. The car cannot stop as smoothly or gradually as a human would (though something close to this may be coming in 8.0).

These are just a few scenarios in the simplest driving environment--on a highway. While some of these scenarios would clearly benefit from additional hardware, some of them should be perfectly doable with existing hardware: notably 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. There are more examples of improvements that can come with existing hardware. For example:

-Stoplight and stop sign recognition.
-Automatic speed limit adjustment.
-When following a vehicle, the car should maintain itself over the path that the lead car took over the ground. (This is useful when following a car on a road without lane markings, or when passing through an intersection without lane markings). Instead, it tends to somewhat "cut the corner" and head straight for the lead car, which could put you into the curb or an adjacent lane (or an adjacent car!)
-If following a car into an unmarked intersection and the lead car changes lanes, your car will follow it into the adjacent lane! This will greatly surprise the car next to you and could lead to a bad day.
-In stop and go traffic, if the lead car alternates between moving a few feet forward, then stopping...then moving forward, then stopping...then your car will annoyingly accelerate, brake, etc. Car should be able to recognize that the time average speed of the lead car is low, and glide along gradually at a very slow speed, using little energy or brakes and leading to a smooth slow ride.

These are additional scenarios that are perfectly achievable with existing hardware.

So over a year of autopilot, we've seen improvement in lane holding, smoothness of steering (and, to a lesser extent, braking). contrast, and other things. But there is a *LONG* way to go before we've exhausted AP1.0 hardware capabilities.

So while it's possible that, within a few quarters, Tesla could put out cars with hardware for full autonomy (or at least level 3) and then update them via software over time, I wouldn't expect fully autonomous hardware anytime soon. Why?

1. Achieving level 4 is clearly an interative process. Starting out, Tesla thought they could rely on cameras. After the Joshua Brown accident, they realized the limitation of using cameras as a primary sensor (I believe this caused Tesla to end the relationship with Mobileye) and changed their focus. This will probably happen again. For instance, Elon might be against LIDAR, but he may come around to it if radar processing doesn't turn out to work as well as he'd hoped.

2. Each sensor that's added makes the processing and software that much more involved and complicated.

3. Level 3 and certainly 4 will require an enormous amount of testing and validation. By Elon's benchmark, it has to be an order of magnitude safer than a human driver at the very least. Probably several years worth of testing data once they have a Level 4 system before Tesla says you can ride as a passenger while the car drives. But certainly even longer before the government says it's ok..

4.
Building a bunch of cars with level 4 hardware and selling them to customers with a promise that they might be able to use them for level 4 driving 5 or more years down the road doesn't make sense. That would be a money-losing proposition for Tesla, unless there are enough foolish buyers out there to pay for the feature many years before it could potentially even be usable.

Yes, Elon mentioned the car being able to drive from NY to pick you up in LA in about 2 years. (Guess what? As awesome as he is, did anyone ever notice that he's a bit overly optimistic when it comes to time frames?)

Yes, what Tesla is doing is awesome.


Yes, Tesla's gathering FAR more data than *anyone* out there.

But if you extrapolate the improvements we've seen since 7.0 and project that out toward even Level 3 autonomy, you should be able to recognize it will be several years before you can chill out and watch your Tesla automatically merge with traffic and autonomously change lanes. And even longer before it will navigate an intersection and make a turn for you.

Yes, there are "marketing" and "research" videos out there showing what approaches Level 3 and 4 technology. But while you might see something near Level 3 or 4 autonomy in the video, that's a very narrow subset of the curveballs the world can throw at you.

I hate to burst any bubbles, but putting a Level 4 car out there in the real world is many orders of magnitude harder.

Long story short, if you're waiting for the "fully autonomous Tesla" before you put down your deposit, I recommend either buying now or moving on. It's going to be awhile.

It's going to be interesting as hell.

But it's going to be awhile.
I find this a very interesting post 15 months later. Some of your 10 listed problems have not been or have only partially been addressed. Looking forward to version 9.0
 
From Elon Musk updates timeline for a self-driving car, but how does Tesla play into it?:

I'm just going to put this right here for all the people who thought I was way off with my original post a few years ago. Right now it aligns with Elon's latest thinking.
View attachment 265359
You’re still wrong in my eyes. AP2 came out soon and it was the next version of autopilot hardware. When you started this thread there was no claim by Tesla of full autonomy or level 4. I never thought the next level hardware would be level 4 or 5, but I thought it would be coming soon. I don’t know how you can say you were right when your title says “AP2 won’t be here soon...” It came a month later. And you would have to be a mind reader to know what everyone thought it would.
 
Do you believe the new time line of 2 - 3 years? Now I'm sceptical of that and I also wonder if it will require hardware that will be on cars coming out just prior to that time, and not the current hardware in use?

At the same time Elon adjusted the FSD timeline, he also revealed they are working on new hardware. Specifically on the computing side. So it's almost a given that the current platform will not be able to do FSD.\

I think it tipped the point where it is wrong for Tesla to continue to sell this feature as prominently as they do on their website. Before, they could still honestly claim there was a reasonable timeline for this functionality. Today even Elon, the most optimistic of all people, is predicting a timeline that puts the feature at best near the end of the most common leasing duration.
 
There is absolutely no chance they will achieve self driving any time soon. I'd give it 18 months until level 3. While driving always keep note of driving situations you encounter. And you will be amazed how many they are.

Traffic lights, stop signs, pedestrian crossings, highway merging, highway exits, round abouts, super streets, Michigan lefts, box junctions, jug handles, hook turns, Texas U turns, traffic circles, staggered junctions, T intersections, dealing with damn cyclists.

And my S has yet to master keeping itself in its lane.

Again, no chance.
 
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I would have thought that the "new" timeline would be bigger news since it seems to confirm that the current hardware (including 2.5) is not self driving capable. I suppose we will find out in late 2019. The OP was on target. I am just glad we did not bite on that original video when 2.0 was released.
 
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You’re still wrong in my eyes. AP2 came out soon and it was the next version of autopilot hardware. When you started this thread there was no claim by Tesla of full autonomy or level 4. I never thought the next level hardware would be level 4 or 5, but I thought it would be coming soon. I don’t know how you can say you were right when your title says “AP2 won’t be here soon...” It came a month later. And you would have to be a mind reader to know what everyone thought it would.

Because I wrote in my original post “You will not see AP 2.0 (what I am using to characterize level 4 autonomy) for about 5 years. And that's being VERY optimistic, even keeping in mind the blindingly fast pace Tesla is moving with this technology.”

AP 2.0 at the time was only a phrase being thrown around. Tons of people were talking of hands-free Teslas being right around the corner, and this original post was a rebuttal to that rosy thinking.

Hardware by itself does not an autonomous system make.
 
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What’s wrong with Tesla buying FSD from a supplier? Seriously?

They just lost a year and change being too proud to work with Mobileye. Of course it would be outrageous for them to come crawling back to that supplier (via Intel). Sorry, I assumed that was obvious.

This thread, like many, come back to what each commentator thinks about the fact that Tesla announced something they didn’t even have working at a prototype level. Some think that’s awesome. Some think that more attorneys general should be involved. I’d say it’s a good thing Tesla is going after the lower price point segment that is less likely to care about autonomous operation.



So if someone comes up with a better product and Tesla buys it there's something wrong with that? You do know Facebook bought Instagram? Does that make Instagram superior to Facebook? And if so, who cares? Not Facebook -- they own it.

This forum is not about insults but even if it was you really need to think before you attempt an insult. Just the fact that Tesla can buy it from a "capable supplier' is a compliment, although we all know you meant it as an attempt at an insult.

Please try to move the conversation forward. Your constant negativity is getting old.
 
The use of "AP2" in the OP was ambiguous between A) the next big version change of AP hardware and software release by Tesla, and B) level 4 driver assistance.

That ambiguity and resulting misunderstanding and confusion explains most of the disagreement and talking past each other in this thread.
You will probably not see AP 2.0 hardware for another few quarters at the very earliest. And that's being optimistic.

You will not see AP 2.0 (what I am using to characterize level 4 autonomy) for about 5 years.
 
The use of "AP2" in the OP was ambiguous between A) the next big version change of AP hardware and software release by Tesla, and B) level 4 driver assistance.

That ambiguity and resulting misunderstanding and confusion explains most of the disagreement and talking past each other in this thread.

Well, only ambiguous if one didn't read the second line in your quote above :)...
 
Well, only ambiguous if one didn't read the second line in your quote above :)...

Right. And so your use of the term "AP2.0" is different than Tesla's use and this forum's use of that exact term.

If you had simply said:

You will probably not see Autonomy level 4 hardware for another few quarters at the very earliest. And that's being optimistic.

You will not see Autonomy level 4 for about 5 years.​

this thread wld be a lot shorter.
 
I guess no one should claim they were right unless they said: “AP2 will be announced very soon, the launch will be a fraud, including edited videos that grossly misrepresent Tesla’s capability. Development will start immediately after the launch, with complete management changes occurring quarterly thereafter. No AP2 car will ever drive itself but we will offer coupons for a discount on your next Tesla at the end of your lease term.”
 
The use of "AP2" in the OP was ambiguous between A) the next big version change of AP hardware and software release by Tesla, and B) level 4 driver assistance.

That ambiguity and resulting misunderstanding and confusion explains most of the disagreement and talking past each other in this thread.
Thanks for the clarification. Your right, I didn't analyze his post well enough to realize he was redefining what AP2 was.
 
My Model S does a pretty good job of staying in its lane for the most part, but it's biggest shortcoming (by FAR) is not adjusting it's position within the lane to avoid large vehicles that either fill up the entire lane, or drive on one side of the lane, as well as certain individuals who don't pay attention and like to drive with two wheels edging into your lane. The car recognizes these things on the sensors but does nothing to avoid it.
 
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My Model S does a pretty good job of staying in its lane for the most part, but it's biggest shortcoming (by FAR) is not adjusting it's position within the lane to avoid large vehicles that either fill up the entire lane, or drive on one side of the lane, as well as certain individuals who don't pay attention and like to drive with two wheels edging into your lane. The car recognizes these things on the sensors but does nothing to avoid it.

Totally. I have AP1, and it does the same thing. It would be really nice that if it sensed a vehicle "too close" to the right and nothing to the left, to nudge over a couple of inches until the lanes clear. I'm told that AP1 used to let you nudge the steering wheel in certain cases like this without disengaging, but that doesn't work anymore. When passing another vehicle at speed, I do like to give a wider buffer (but still in my lane) to the other vehicle. It's really unnerving when AP1 goes right along passing a car or truck really, really close.
 
My Model S does a pretty good job of staying in its lane for the most part, but it's biggest shortcoming (by FAR) is not adjusting it's position within the lane to avoid large vehicles that either fill up the entire lane, or drive on one side of the lane, as well as certain individuals who don't pay attention and like to drive with two wheels edging into your lane. The car recognizes these things on the sensors but does nothing to avoid it.

That's odd. If there is space in the lane, my AP2.0 car will move away from vehicles that are alongside when they get close. I posted about this back in May, when the car was on 17.17.4.
 
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That's odd. If there is space in the lane, my AP2.0 car will move away from vehicles that are alongside when they get close. I posted about this back in May, when the car was on 17.17.4.
Yeah, we noticed this with the 17.17.4 update that we received in mid-May. We were on a road trip on 5/12 and 5/13. The functionality wasn't there on 5/12 but after updating the firmware to 17.17.4, we noticed it on the drive back the next day. We didn't really notice it on regular cars but it was definitely happening when we'd pass semis.
 
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