When to report NHTSA issues?

[bonnie]

As noted after my post, it's of course up to the individual to determine if they feel it is a safety issue or not. Most circumstances are debatable. I am not advocating that everything should be reported, only saying that IF you feel it is a safety issue, reporting should not be avoided.

And of course, Tesla should be your first call. They need to know. In any circumstance.

 

[brianman]

Each time that I've tried to draft some sort of an addition to this conversation, I end up erasing the post because it's all been said before and there are those that continue to persist that government is the solution to all problems.

I'll leave my response as "+1" because if I say anything more it will probably go to the quarantine thread.

 

[cwerdna]

Understand the math, but the recall is only for certain models of Prius. 700,000. (450/700,000)*30000 = 19.

Also, these 450 were presumably all from the same mechanism, triggering a recall. I haven't heard that there is a common mechanism involved with the Model S failures reported here.

Yes, it is for only for the 2010-2014 Prius liftback (and not the Prius c, Prius v wagon, Plug-in Prius nor Gen 1 and 2 Priuses, that covered model years 01 thru 09). The 1.9 million number is the number of (2010 to 2014) Prius liftbacks affected globally by the recall, of which 700,000 is to cover the vehicles in the US.

So, my math still stands: (450/1,900,000)*30000 = 7.1.

As for common mechanism involved w/the Model S failures causing them to come to a stop, yep, we don't know.

In fact, we have no info whatsoever other than the symptoms and some somewhat expensive to very expensive components (or entire subsystems) were replaced. And, sometimes a 12 volt battery is replaced too.

While I'm quite confident that Tesla has dismantled all the failed components for analysis, we don't know whether internal Tesla employees consider it to be a safety issue (given how dismissive some here are) and how thoroughly they're investigating the failure mechanism, manufacturing process, recovering non-failed parts from the field for analysis, trying to replicate the failures, etc.

And, we don't know whether there's enough collective experience within Tesla in being able to look for the right thing, if trying to replicate the failures and investigate the root cause. Most of the major automakers have been making cars from the ground up for many decades, encompassing many more generations of cars and a plethora of suppliers and supply issues.

Again, look at examples of investigations by automakers themselves like what I attached and the text and attachments at:
Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 4

And, as I pointed out, there's an inherent conflict of interest. Some here are seem so concerned about stock price hit. Wouldn't Tesla employees be too? If they have to announce a recall w/o any prodding from NHTSA, seems like the hit would be about equivalent.

I'll say it again. I'm not calling for any recall. I'm merely calling for those who experience legitimate safety defects to report them to NHTSA, after an attempt at repair has been completed, regardless of brand. One can look to the many recall examples that pop up every month of what meets the bar of a "safety defect", for which cars are being recalled for. I have no hesitation in doing so for cars I own, even though I might be a fan of the company and brand.

It would be a real shame if this happened (seriously, look at that crazy chart in the article):

Have you folks looked at the Charting Panic chart at It's All Your Fault: The DOT Renders Its Verdict on Toyota's Unintended-Acceleration Scare Car and Driver of the HUGE spike in "unintended acceleration" during the whole Toyota SUA/sticky pedal PR disaster? Hmmm... were all those legit complaints or were there perhaps other motives? Why the spike (which is supposedly normal, when a recall hits the news)? What if those folks had complained earlier and in similar volumes or more spread out? Maybe the Toyota recall would've happened sooner there would've been fewer accidents, injuries and deaths?

 

[cwerdna]

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM452755/RCDNN-14V138-1942P.pdf has some interesting info on a Nissan recall that affects 1 million vehicles, including my '13 Leaf.

You can find it and more documents by looking for campaign id 14V138000 at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues.

One will notice in the above URL, there was quite a bit of investigative work and a "Nissan was contacted by NHTSA regarding several customer complaints..."

Report Receipt Date: MAR 25, 2014
NHTSA Campaign Number: 14V138000
Component(s): AIR BAGS , ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
Potential Number of Units Affected: 989,701
All Products Associated with this Recall expand
Details close
2 Associated Documents close
Manufacturer: Nissan North America, Inc.
SUMMARY:
Nissan North America, Inc. (Nissan) is recalling certain model year 2013-2014 Altima, LEAF, Pathfinder, and Sentra, model year 2013 NV200 (aka Taxi) and Infiniti JX35 and model year 2014 Infiniti Q50 and QX60 vehicles. In the affected vehicles, the occupant classification system (OCS) software may incorrectly classify the passenger seat as empty, when it is occupied by an adult.
CONSEQUENCE:
If the OCS does not detect an adult occupant in the passenger seat, the passenger airbag would be deactivated. Failure of the passenger airbag to deploy during a crash (where deployment is warranted) could increase the risk of injury to the passenger.
REMEDY:
Nissan will notify owners, and dealers will update the OCS software, free of charge. The recall is expected to begin in mid-April 2014. Owners may contact Nissan at 1-800-647-7261.
NOTES:
Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to Home | Safercar -- National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

 

[cwerdna]

I'd imagine most of you heard about the GM ignition switch recall in which cars (from the "old" GM) w/metal keys can slip out of the run position, causing the driver to suddenly lose power (again, million of vehicles in the past and will continue to be recalled for losing power or "stalling"), lose power steering and lose power brakes, increasing the chance of an accident. And supposedly, the power to the airbags is cut as well (it seems like that might not actually be correct though, unclear).

Anyhow, there's this now: GM Announces Its 30th Recall Of The Year Thus Far : The Two-Way : NPR.

Then there's GM CEO axes 15 over switches, says 'no conspiracy' and GM's Mary Barra Fires 15, Says More Recalls Are Coming - Businessweek (has a nice chart).

From the last URL:

At the same time, Barra ruled out any high-level conspiracy in the 2.6 million-vehicle debacle. Citing a newly public internal probe, she said the faulty parts and fatal accidents that went on for almost a decade were born of bureaucratic bumbling and “individuals seemingly looking for reasons not to act,” rather than any sort of executive coverup or risky attempt to avoid extra expenses. “In the end, I’m not afraid of the truth,” Barra said.

The report, compiled by former U.S. prosecutor Anton Valukas, highlights a “pattern of incompetence and neglect” that Barra said was more “complex and nuanced” than simple attempts to save a few cents per vehicle on repair expenses. The 15 fired workers were dismissed for misconduct but also for incompetence and, in some cases, because “they simply didn’t do enough,” according to Barra.

I find it interesting (but not so surprising given the attitude of some folks here) that I only see 19 safety complaints filed for the Model S. I haven't a chance to read all of them, but I'm sure that numerous folks who have suddenly lost motive power in their Model S have decided to not file a safety complaint w/NHTSA (some have openly refused/declined to) and others probably don't know they should.

With only 19 complaints, one definitely can't make the argument (that I remember seeing previously) about not wanting to "clog" NHTSA w/safety complaints. And, if they're as "rare" as some here want to believe, there wouldn't be many complaints anyway, right?

 

[jerry33]

With only 19 complaints, one definitely can't make the argument (that I remember seeing previously) about not wanting to "clog" NHTSA w/safety complaints. And, if they're as "rare" as some here want to believe, there wouldn't be many complaints anyway, right?

My suspicion is that many of the losing power complaints are from accidentally engaging neutral or pressing both the brake an accelerator. I suspect that every Model S driver has done at least one of those two things, and not everyone is as up to speed on how the car works as those who frequent TMC. Any power loss that isn't one of those two should be investigated, but perhaps first by Tesla. Should Tesla not inform the owner as to the cause of the power loss, then it's time to seek out the NHTSA.

 

[pbleic]

Have the car about 1.5 months and have done neutral 4-5 times and 2 foot brake/accelerator once. It is surprising and causes a bit of panic first couple of times it happens.

 

[ecarfan]

Have owned my S for 6 months, close to 10K miles, accidentally put the car in neutral once and twice when on a hill pressed on the go pedal and the brake hard enough simultaneously to have the car beep at me ((no longer happens to me since Hill Assist implemented).

Really not an issue.

 

[dsm363]

I'd imagine most of you heard about the GM ignition switch recall in which cars (from the "old" GM) w/metal keys can slip out of the run position, causing the driver to suddenly lose power (again, million of vehicles in the past and will continue to be recalled for losing power or "stalling"), lose power steering and lose power brakes, increasing the chance of an accident. And supposedly, the power to the airbags is cut as well (it seems like that might not actually be correct though, unclear).

Anyhow, there's this now: GM Announces Its 30th Recall Of The Year Thus Far : The Two-Way : NPR.

Then there's GM CEO axes 15 over switches, says 'no conspiracy' and GM's Mary Barra Fires 15, Says More Recalls Are Coming - Businessweek (has a nice chart).

From the last URL:


I find it interesting (but not so surprising given the attitude of some folks here) that I only see 19 safety complaints filed for the Model S. I haven't a chance to read all of them, but I'm sure that numerous folks who have suddenly lost motive power in their Model S have decided to not file a safety complaint w/NHTSA (some have openly refused/declined to) and others probably don't know they should.

With only 19 complaints, one definitely can't make the argument (that I remember seeing previously) about not wanting to "clog" NHTSA w/safety complaints. And, if they're as "rare" as some here want to believe, there wouldn't be many complaints anyway, right?

So you're accusing us of being willing to put people at risk simply to protect Tesla? If not, what exactly are you saying 'given the attitude of some folks here'?

 

[cwerdna]

My suspicion is that many of the losing power complaints are from accidentally engaging neutral or pressing both the brake an accelerator. I suspect that every Model S driver has done at least one of those two things, and not everyone is as up to speed on how the car works as those who frequent TMC. Any power loss that isn't one of those two should be investigated, but perhaps first by Tesla. Should Tesla not inform the owner as to the cause of the power loss, then it's time to seek out the NHTSA.

Ok. I'm referring to the ones where their Model S has lost power due to neither the neutral or press both pedals case.

I'm talking about power loss where the drive unit and/or battery pack had to be replaced (and possibly other components). So, if your car suddenly lost power (don't worry about what brand it is) and the service dept of your automaker/its dealer fixed it, detailing what they replaced/repaired, you would not report to NHTSA? Why? What would be the purpose of not reporting it?

If it loses power due to the above while in motion and not due to user error or striking an object, that's something that should be reported to NHTSA, preferably after the issue has been resolved (or attempts have been made, successful or not).

So you're accusing us of being willing to put people at risk simply to protect Tesla? If not, what exactly are you saying 'given the attitude of some folks here'?

That is the net effect, whether those folks realize it or not. Please see earlier posts in this thread. What else is the reason for refusing to report legitimate safety defects to NHTSA and/or discouraging folks from doing so?

Besides you, examples of those who have actively discouraged reporting legitimate safety defects to NHTSA (e.g. losing power unexpectedly) and/or dismissed power loss issues due to hardware failure as "not" safety issues and/or openly said they won't report their legitimate power loss issue to NHTSA:
Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 2
Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 3
Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 4
Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 4
Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 5
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 5
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 5
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 5
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 6
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 6 and (which led to That very loud and painful , That very loud and painful - Page 6, and That very loud and painful - Page 7 to resolve)
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 4 (from Stranded. Feeling like George Clooney. and Stranded. Feeling like George Clooney. - Page 2)
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 4
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 5
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 3

As I've said before, at Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 5 "Millions, but likely tens of millions and maybe even hundreds of millions of cars have been and are still being recalled for possibly stalling or possibly losing power." Again, I am not calling for recalls. I am calling for people who experience legitimate safety defects w/their car (regardless of make, even if it's a brand I am a fan of) to report to NHTSA. It'd be better to do it after it's resolved or attempts have been made to resolve it (so that resolution details are available), when possible.

Suddenly losing power while in motion in the absence of user error in normal operation (haven't struck an object or a heavy object hasn't struck the car (e.g. another car, tree/boulder falls on car, etc.) are absolutely safety defects.

As I'm quite sure I've stated before, in all the car forums I've been on and on off-topic areas of non-car forums w/car discussion, I've never seen such staunch opposition to reporting safety defects (including power loss) to NHTSA. This is the only forum I've ever observed this. Anyone who brings it up in those forums when someone encounters a safety issue isn't jumped on, like here.

 

[jerry33]

Ok. I'm referring to the ones where their Model S has lost power due to neither the neutral or press both pedals case.

Which is what I said, but people aren't really good at determining that, so the first step is to check with Tesla and have them verify that it's not one of those two cases. Based on past performance, I'd say that Tesla would put in a fix before ordered to.

 

[qwk]

As I'm quite sure I've stated before, in all the car forums I've been on and on off-topic areas of non-car forums w/car discussion, I've never seen such staunch opposition to reporting safety defects (including power loss) to NHTSA. This is the only forum I've ever observed this. Anyone who brings it up in those forums when someone encounters a safety issue isn't jumped on, like here.

IMO, you are getting jumped on because you keep on trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, for a vehicle you don't even own. Common sense tells me that the law was meant for safety defects that a manufacturer refuses to fix or acknowledge. Tesla isn't that manufacturer, so just let it be.

 

[dsm363]

Cwerdna: Yes. Has a lot to do with the fact you seem to fixate on this one issue. The issue of reporting and why it can be important is valuable but just seems an odd fixation for someone who doesn't own the car and has never been impacted by any safety issue you seem to think is there.
This is not GM we are talking about.

Do you go to every brand of car maker's forums and lecture people about reporting issues they don't consider a safety issue? If the car loses power suddenly and I'm warned to pull over safely and then the company fixes it and tells me what the problem is then I wouldn't report that no matter who made the car. Saying people here are willing to but people's lives in danger is frankly insulting.

If the A/C breaks in a new car and you live in Arizona would you report that to NTHSA too? Reporting seems to be your initial response to everything instead of selectivity picking items that are worthy of attention.

 

[FlasherZ]

That is the net effect, whether those folks realize it or not. Please see earlier posts in this thread. What else is the reason for refusing to report legitimate safety defects to NHTSA and/or discouraging folks from doing so?

This has been told to you before - it's because the majority of people in this country believe that the NHSTA should not be the primary data collector because it is a government agency and is disconnected from the vendor-customer relationship which should be the first course of action if an issue exists; that it's a waste of tax money as long as the manufacturer is doing its job, which Tesla seems to be doing.

In addition, your definition of "safety defect" is just, in my opinion, completely wrong. The idea that spinning a timing chain in an ICE is a "safety defect" because it "lost power while in motion in the absence of user error in normal operation" is, frankly, BS and the majority of people aren't buying it. That may be a manufacturing defect, but it's not a safety defect which to me is a critical design flaw that endangers life.

And now you're accusing me of being part of some secret group that flies black helicopters to keep people from reporting incidents to "mommy government". Think about that for a second.

I reiterate that the only time to report issues to mommy government is when the manufacturer demonstrates neglect of the customer. Until then, no need. And the data seems to agree with that.

 

[cwerdna]

Do you go to every brand of car maker's forums and lecture people about reporting issues they don't consider a safety issue? If the car loses power suddenly and I'm warned to pull over safely and then the company fixes it and tells me what the problem is then I wouldn't report that no matter who made the car. Saying people here are willing to but people's lives in danger is frankly insulting.

Nope. No need for a lecture because so far, this is the ONLY car or non-car forum I've EVER been on where there's been such a vocal few who are so opposed to reporting legitimate safety defects to NHTSA, esp. in the case of sudden loss of propulsion.

You really don't think it's a safety defect that car loses power? How about the millions of GM vehicles that have been recalled because their ignitions can slip of the run position due to heavy keychains? This has caused numerous crashes and over a dozen deaths. So, GM is wrong to recall them and perform fixes?

Is Nissan wrong to recall 196 '14 Leafs (see http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2014-nissan-leaf-recalled-for-shut-down-risk.html)?

WASHINGTON — Nissan North America is recalling 196 2014 Nissan Leaf electric cars because the inverter may fail, causing the vehicle to shut down, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

"Due to a problem with the motor control circuit board, the inverter may fail, causing the vehicle to shut down," said NHTSA in its summary of the problem. "An unexpected vehicle shutdown increases the risk of a crash."...

You seriously don't think sudden, unexpected loss of power isn't a safety issue? For all if you claiming that it isn't, I dare you to repeatedly try this experiment in any car: shift to neutral and stay in neutral the whole time until you pull to the side of the road somewhere in all of these scenarios and do these repeatedly.

- while accelerating onto a highway w/typical or busy traffic
- while accelerating to cross an intersection w/vehicles all around you
- while in a middle or left lane of a busy highway moving at highway speeds
- while overtaking a car on a busy 2-lane road w/opposing traffic.

While stopped on the side of a busy highway, just wait there, maybe 30 mins or an hour (amount of time it might take for a tow truck to compare and render assistance). I'm sure some of you have seen videos of cop cars getting rear-ended during traffic stops by out-of-control vehicles. There's a big safety issue w/a stopped car vs. cars going by much faster.

In all of the above scenarios, are you in greater danger of an accident or causing an accident amongst others by the above vs. a car functioning normally?

Insulting? Withholding legitimate safety defect reports to NHTSA or the appropriate regulatory agency and encouraging other to also withhold/not report is a good thing? Really? There are tens of thousands of other Model S drivers and millions of other cars who share the road w/them.

If the A/C breaks in a new car and you live in Arizona would you report that to NTHSA too? Reporting seems to be your initial response to everything instead of selectivity picking items that are worthy of attention.

Broken AC isn't a safety issue.

This has been told to you before - it's because the majority of people in this country believe that the NHSTA should not be the primary data collector because it is a government agency and is disconnected from the vendor-customer relationship which should be the first course of action if an issue exists; that it's a waste of tax money as long as the manufacturer is doing its job, which Tesla seems to be doing.

Really? Source for your claim? Yes, reporting to the automaker should be first course of action, and bringing it for warranty repair to me counts as contacting them. How does it benefit drivers of the vehicle in questions and others who share the road w/them to withhold information from a government highway safety agency, esp. if the work done to repair the issue has been completed?

In addition, your definition of "safety defect" is just, in my opinion, completely wrong. The idea that spinning a timing chain in an ICE is a "safety defect" because it "lost power while in motion in the absence of user error in normal operation" is, frankly, BS and the majority of people aren't buying it. That may be a manufacturing defect, but it's not a safety defect which to me is a critical design flaw that endangers life.
...

Yours is the one that's completely wrong. See above. Also, MANY, if not the vast majority of auto recalls are exactly for manufacturing defects. Have you ignored what I posted in this and other threads? Have you ignored every single recall that involves loss of power or "stalling" of other vehicles? All of those cars (I'm sure numbering in the hundreds of millions by now) shouldn't have been recalled because they "aren't" safety issue?

Have a look at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM455683/RCDNN-14V263-3192P.pdf (campaign 14V263000 for the recall of 196 '14 Leafs). Sure wasn't a design flaw.

How about BMW recalls popular cars, SUVs for possible stalling?

From http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM453428/RCDNN-14V176-8618P.pdf that is part of recall campaign 14V176000.

4. The percentage of vehicles estimated to contain the condition is approximately 2%.

5. This recall involves the housing bolts for the variable camshaft timing (VANOS)
adjustment unit on the intake and exhaust camshafts. The housing of the VANOS
adjustment unit is assembled with four aluminum bolts. Due to a quality fault, the
aluminum bolts can loosen over time and under certain circumstances the bolt heads
may break. The VANOS assembly is controlled electrically by valves actuated via
engine oil pressure. If the bolt heads loosen or break, the VANOS may leak internally,
resulting in the affected camshaft not being adjusted correctly anymore. Since the
camshaft position is monitored by the engine electronics, it will be recognized t~at the
camshaft position is deviating from the target position. As a result, the reduced engine
power Limp-Home mode will be activated.
The driver will be notified by the Check Engine (or Service Engine Soon) warning light
and a Check Control message that the reduced engine power Limp-Home mode is
activated either immediately or at startup of the next driving cycle. The driver will notice
a distinct change in engine running condition and hear increased engine noise. In rare
cases, the engine cannot be started after switching off. In very rare cases, the engine
could stall during operation which could lead to a crash.

All of these were clearly manufacturing related issues the caused recalls (involving non-Tesla vehicles):
- 1st PDF I attached to Right front door popped open while driving
- Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 4
- Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 4

So, for you, manufacturing defects that resulted in compromised safety == free pass? Not a safety defect, huh? Toyota, BMW and Nissan shouldn't have recalled those cars?

I reiterate that the only time to report issues to mommy government is when the manufacturer demonstrates neglect of the customer. Until then, no need. And the data seems to agree with that.

Really? So, I found a copy of the Model S owner's manual at https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/model_s_owners_manual_na_english_5.9.pdf. On page 140 it says (in language typical of other car manuals):

Reporting Safety Defects - US
If you believe that Model S has a defect which
could cause a crash or could cause injury or
death, you should immediately inform the
National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration (NHTSA) in addition to
notifying Tesla Motors.
If NHTSA receives similar complaints, it may
open an investigation. If it finds that a safety
defect exists in a group of vehicles, it may
order a recall and remedy campaign.
However, NHTSA cannot become involved in
individual problems between you, your dealer,
or Tesla Motors.
To contact NHTSA, you may call the Vehicle
Safety Hotline toll-free at 1-888-327-4236
(TTY: 1-800-424-9153); go to http://
http://www.safercar.gov; or write to: Administrator,
National Highway Traffic Safety, 1200 New
Jersey Avenue SE., Washington, DC 20590.
You can also obtain other information about
motor vehicle safety from http://
Home | Safercar -- National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

I see nothing in there about withholding info from/not contacting NHTSA.

Where is this "data"?

 

[NigelM]

I'm genuinely curious cwerdna, what's your mission here? Are you trying to save us from ourselves or just alert us to our blissful ignorance?

 

[dsm363]

cwerdna:

GM's Delayed Ignition Switch Recall, Who's To Blame?

When the Model S loses power it is my understanding the airbags still work and so does power steering and people have had time to pull off to the side of the road. It's not like the car slams on the breaks and they lose control. Not the case with the GM recall. If you owned the car and wanted to report it fine, no one is stopping you. It is just odd to come to a forum like this and continually push and lecture people who actually own the product about what they should do and how unsafe they are being. You're basically accusing us of purposely putting people's lives at risk if you wanted to start down the 'that's insulting' line of attack. People who have had this happen to them have reported it to Tesla and Tesla is highly motivated to fix these issues. Until there is evidence Tesla is ignoring the problem and putting people's lives at risk, what benefit do you think getting the NTHSA involved would add? It's not like this problem is hiding in the shadows and only through reporting the issue will the truth come out.

Cars break down sometimes. That doesn't mean every one is a serious safety defect that must require a full investigation by the NTHSA. Especially since they were so effective in the GM case. They have a role and if people report issues to them that is fine. No one is saying owners don't have the right to do that.

Lack of AC in Arizona could be a safety defect. So could headlights not working at night. So could a out of control frunk monkey. You can and have the right to report anything you want just as owners of the car have the right not to. Pretty simple. I had a Volvo that wouldn't start one winter because some computer chip malfunctioned. Should I have reported that to the NTHSA? It was an old car at the time. I'm just trying to get guidance as to how small of a problem I should report.

Just curious how many times have you reported things to the NTHSA? Has a lack of reporting ever caused serious harm to you or someone you know? That might explain a lot. I guess my question is what injuries have you noticed in the Model S from these safety defects?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Well cwerdna, you're the first person I have ever seen that actively goes around telling people they should report something to the NHTSA for different random issues that many owners may never think of reporting to the NHTSA (OP of this thread is about windshield wipers). I've never seen that happen anywhere.

A lot of the responses to you is because of this. If an actual owner feels something is serious enought that they want to report to NHTSA, nothing in this forum will stop them from doing so. We have our own opinions about when we think people should consider reporting things to the NHTSA (and there's nothing wrong with voicing that). AFAIK no one has actively discouraged any actual owner who was already on the border of reporting to the NHTSA from doing so (please correct me if I'm incorrect), just people who are mainly pushing back against you for actively encouraging people to do so unsolicited.

 

[cwerdna]

Until there is evidence Tesla is ignoring the problem and putting people's lives at risk, what benefit do you think getting the NTHSA involved would add? It's not like this problem is hiding in the shadows and only through reporting the issue will the truth come out.

Cars break down sometimes. That doesn't mean every one is a serious safety defect that must require a full investigation by the NTHSA.

I think some of you don't understand the process. NOTHING may happen as a result of safety complaints. I'm sure nothing happens in most of them. There can be a threshold (but there's no set number) in which more action is taken. See http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/RecallProcess. ALL automakers should be able to at least answer basic questions and supply data to NHTSA, if requested/required.

If an automaker can't respond to the above, doesn't that raise bigger questions?

BTW, if an automaker is quietly addressing or partly addressing a safety defect w/o issuing recall, they can run afoul of their legal obligations. Automakers have gotten into trouble for this before.

Lack of AC in Arizona could be a safety defect.

It isn't per Motor Vehicle Safety Defects and Recalls Campaigns | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

Examples of defects NOT considered safety-related:

Air conditioners and radios that do not operate properly.

So could headlights not working at night.

Yep. And there have been numerous recalls due to failing headlights. Google for recall headlights. Example at Honda Pilot, Civic Headlights Subject of Latest Honda Recall - AutoTrader.com.

Honda recently announced the recall of around 820,000 Civic compacts and Pilot SUVs for a problem that can cause their headlights to fail. According to the automaker and the federal government's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), the recall affects 2002-2003 Civic and 2004-2005 Pilot models, and expands on an earlier recall that affected CR-V and Pilot crossovers.

According to NHTSA, the recall is necessary because a wiring problem in the headlight switch could cause low-beam headlights to fail in affected vehicles. Of course, this could limit a driver's ability to see the road at night, increasing the risk of injury and potentially leading to a collision. That's the same issue that led Honda to recall its 2002-2004 CR-V and 2003 Pilot back in March, which affected more than 550,000 vehicles

Well cwerdna, you're the first person I have ever seen that actively goes around telling people they should report something to the NHTSA for different random issues that many owners may never think of reporting to the NHTSA (OP of this thread is about windshield wipers). I've never seen that happen anywhere.

There are plenty of examples on other forums where it has NOT been ME telling people to file a safety complaint w/NHTSA. Here are a few NOT from me:
Problems with PiP glass | PriusChat
headlight replacement | Page 3 | PriusChat
Dealer wants $4500 for brake repair.... WHAT? | Page 2 | PriusChat
Braking problem | Page 25 | PriusChat
My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Weak/low drivers side windshield washer squirts
Make an Official Complaint to the NHTSA 07 CLUTCH ISSUE - MY350Z.COM Forums
MY350Z.COM Forums - View Single Post - service bulletins/recalls
Chevy Cruze Recalled for Fire Risk: All of Them - Page 30
Cruze Transmission Problems

As for wipers, well, yes, that is safety defect. From Motor Vehicle Safety Defects and Recalls Campaigns | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

Examples of defects considered safety-related
Windshield wiper assemblies that fail to operate properly.

Google for recall wipers. Here's one 2014 Chevrolet SS Recalled for Windshield Wiper Problem | Edmunds.com.

General Motors is recalling 4,794 2014 Chevrolet SS sport sedans and 2013-'14 Chevrolet Caprice police cars in the U.S. because the windshield wipers may not operate, the automaker said on Friday.

"If the motor gear teeth become stripped, the wipers may not operate," GM said in a statement.

Chevrolet dealers will replace the windshield wiper module assembly.

GM said it is not aware of any crashes or injuries related to the recall.

A lot of the responses to you is because of this. If an actual owner feels something is serious enought that they want to report to NHTSA, nothing in this forum will stop them from doing so. We have our own opinions about when we think people should consider reporting things to the NHTSA (and there's nothing wrong with voicing that).

As for "may never think of reporting to the NHTSA", that's exactly my point. I'm informing people and trying to convince them of when it is appropriate to do so.

I'm genuinely curious cwerdna, what's your mission here? Are you trying to save us from ourselves or just alert us to our blissful ignorance?

As I stated in a PM with dsm363, I'm a car enthusiast w/more interest in EV and PHEVs since ~2010 and hybrids since 2005. Had a sports car from 2003 to 2010, as well.

No, I am trying to convince people who have experienced legitimate safety defects to report them to NHTSA or the appropriate regulatory counterpart for their country, for any vehicle for which there is a legal obligation for the manufacturer to address it for free (for the US, its 10 years per Motor Vehicle Defects and Safety Recalls: What Every Vehicle Owner Should Know | Safercar.gov | NHTSA ).

Obviously, there's a vocal few here who have bashed me and discouraged folks, sometimes indirectly from reporting such occurrences to NHTSA for bizarre reasons (e.g. "mommy government", it's "random" therefore it shouldn't be reported, manufacturing defects aren't safety defects, etc.)

Regarding the GM case of loss power steering and airbags due to ignition switches moving out of the run position, that's an additional risk on top of the engine cutting out. There have been hundreds of millions of cars recalled for losing power, stalling, engine stopping, etc. that don't necessarily have either thing happening. Just Google for all of these, for example:
(insert name of automaker) recalls cars stalling
(insert name of automaker) recalls cars losing power
(insert name of automaker) recalls cars may stall

I've posted numerous examples.

I personally haven't reported any safety defects to NHTSA of cars I've owned, yet. I have told my dad to report to NHTSA when his Toyota Rav4 had a strong gasoline odor and was found to have a loose fuel rail (When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 4), even though I'm somewhat of a fan of Toyota.

In hindsight, maybe I should've filed a safety complaint in 2002 when I encountered 2k2 accelerator pedal stopper recall work wasn't done right (somewhat logn) - Maxima Forums. The dealer who performed the recall work (campaign 02V043000, more info at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/ACM5071491/RCDNN-02V043-4137.PDF and http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/ACM5071482/RCRIT-02V043-3020.PDF) did the work wrong and used the wrong stopper. I didn't know this until I hit the issue and brought it to the closest dealer to me, at the time. But, it was 12 years ago, and I didn't know any better re: reporting to NHTSA.

As I posted there:

I hit the exact symptoms described in the recall. Engine lost power, service engine soon light came on, throttle unresponsive, car wouldn't do jack until I got under 20 mph. Luckily I was in no danger at the time.

You could use the press on the accelerator all you wanted and it didn't do squat until I got under ~20 mph. Even then, it would barely accelerate once you go under 20. The limp mode went away once I stopped the car and power cycled it


From the recall info on NHTSA's site:

Report Receipt Date: FEB 12, 2002
NHTSA Campaign Number: 02V043000
Component(s): VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL
...
Details ...

7 Associated Documents ...

Manufacturer: NISSAN NORTH AMERICA, INC.
SUMMARY:
ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH AN ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL SYSTEM, THE STOPPER FOR THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL WILL PREVENT EXCESSIVE MOVEMENT OF THE ACCELERATOR POSITION SENSOR. IF THE DRIVER APPLIES OVERLY EXCESSIVE FORCE TO THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL WHILE AT THE SAME TIME PUSHING IT TO THE RIGHT, THE PEDAL CAN "OVER TRAVEL" DUE TO THE DESIGN OF THE PEDAL STOPPER.
CONSEQUENCE:
THIS WILL CAUSE THE ENGINE MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP TO COME ON AND THE ENGINE SPEED TO BE SEVERELY LIMITED. IF THIS OCCURS UNEXPECTEDLY, IT COULD LEAD TO A CRASH.

For my case, due to the wrong stopper being put on by the dealer to correct the above, I personally hit the above malfunction WITHOUT pushing to the right. The car thought there was a sensor malfunction due to the allowed travel by use of the wrong stopper.

I've even DISCOURAGED people from reporting to NHTSA what were clearly NOT safety defects (My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11) + other exchanges w/ALLWATZ a few others further in the thread) but instead redirect that to the proper agency. This was during the whole Leaf Phoenix battery degradation fiasco. ALLWATZ over there and a few others kept encouraging folks to report battery degradation, a non-safety issue to NHTSA, a safety organization.

AFAIK no one has actively discouraged any actual owner who was already on the border of reporting to the NHTSA to not do so (please correct me if I'm incorrect), just people who are mainly pushing back against you for actively encouraging people to do so unsolicited.

Border? Not sure, but here are examples of discouragements:
When to report NHTSA issues?
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 2 - he decided not to, based on the exchanges
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 3
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 4 - yeah, sure, how does a driver know a problem is "random"?
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 4
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 4
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 4
When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 6
Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 3

Let's take a step back.

1) Losing propulsion unexpectedly/suddenly in the absence of user error a safety defect? Absolutely yes.

Why? Try the scenarios over and over in post 75. Use some logic. Does this increase the risk of a crash involving you or other vehicles around you? Yes.

Have other cars been recalled for this? Yes. Almost certainly hundreds of millions. Has it been wrong that they've been recalled? Doesn't seem like it.

2) Should manufacturing defects count as safety defects? Yes. Many, if not most recalls are due to a manufacturing defect. Why should anyone get an exemption?

3) When to report? Assuming it is a legitimate safety defect and not user error, I'd advise reporting to NHTSA after you've contacted the automaker and after it's been resolved, where possible. Taking it in for service to the automaker's service centers to me, counts as a report, since it'll be in their system.

 

[dsm363]

How many hours do you spend collecting NTHSA related safety links? For someone who had never filed a complaint you have spent an amazing amount of time on multiple car forums on this issue. I think your point here has been made. We should report anything that even could possibly be safety related even if we don't think it is and let the NTHSA sort it out.