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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Both examples are of you popping in and telling the owner report to NHTSA unsolicited, and then a whole bunch of other commenters pushing back mainly against you specifically. It's not like there's owners out there who's originally considering reporting to the NHTSA that was told not to (independent of back and forth comments with you specifically).
So I'm not sure if you are helping your cause or not.
Krugerrand
Meow
Just a joke and it does kind of have something to do with the thread.
I could have been more direct, but I wasn't trying to get moved over to snippiness, and still not trying.
NigelM
Recovering Member
But why? (This is not a personal dig or bashing you btw) I'm genuinely curious if you think we're all stupid or just ignorant or deliberately dangerous here on TMC?
cwerdna has said that he believes we are purposely trying to suppress failures (that he incorrectly describes as "safety defects"). It's insulting and defamatory.
The only reason I continue to participate is that each time he tries to tell people they should be running to mommy government, we have to correct that inappropriate recommendation and remind them that the NHSTA is an oversight agency that has an appropriate role when the customer-vendor relationship fails.
The only reason I continue to participate is that each time he tries to tell people they should be running to mommy government, we have to correct that inappropriate recommendation and remind them that the NHSTA is an oversight agency that has an appropriate role when the customer-vendor relationship fails.
Really? So a vehicle that suddenly loses power not due to user error doesn't have a "safety defect"? It doesn't increase the risk of crash for either the driver and injury to the driver and other vehicles around him? What if every single day, on one leg of your commute to/from work, a vehicle ahead of you in traffic loses power and either has to suddenly move to the shoulder or can't make it to the shoulder and is stopped in the middle of the road?
Until the vehicle has been moved totally out of the way, that vehicle and all the others coming from behind are at increased risk of a crash, as are their drivers. The driver himself/herself is also at increased risk of injury.
I'll repeat what I posted before:
-- begin repeat --
For all if you claiming that it isn't, I dare you to repeatedly try this experiment in any car: shift to neutral and stay in neutral the whole time until you pull to the side of the road somewhere in all of these scenarios and do these repeatedly.
- while accelerating onto a highway w/typical or busy traffic
- while accelerating to cross an intersection w/vehicles all around you
- while in a middle or left lane of a busy highway moving at highway speeds
- while overtaking a car on a busy 2-lane road w/opposing traffic.
While stopped on the side of a busy highway, just wait there, maybe 30 mins or an hour (amount of time it might take for a tow truck to compare and render assistance). I'm sure some of you have seen videos of cop cars getting rear-ended during traffic stops by out-of-control vehicles. There's a big safety issue w/a stopped car vs. cars going by much faster.
In all of the above scenarios, are you in greater danger of an accident or causing an accident amongst others by the above vs. a car functioning normally?
-- end repeat --
Put your money where your mouth is.
Yes, some are trying to convince people that safety defects aren't and also to not report them to NHTSA, in the hopes of "protecting" Tesla, instead of doing the right thing.
As I've stated over and over, there have been hundreds of millions of vehicles recalled (safety recalls, that is) for losing power, stalling, and the like. There have been at least 87 deaths linked to the infamous GM ignition switch issue where the key lock cylinder would slip out of the run position, cutting power to the engine and potentially other accessories like the airbags.
FINALLY, Toyota has put up some more info Rav4 EV "check EV system" warning and shifting to neutral recall. I posted links at The New RAV4 EV - Page 89.
From http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM474877/RCORRD-15V143-3968.pdf, which involves every single Rav4 EV.
-- begin quote --
3. Total Number of Vehicles Potentially Involved:
2,497
4. Percentage of Vehicles Estimated to Actually Contain the Defect:
Unknown
5. Description of Problem:
The Electric Vehicle Traction Motor Assembly in the subject vehicles is part of the propulsion system, which contains a drive inverter (DI), DI electronic control unit (ECU), electric motor, motor speed sensor, shift control actuator, and transaxle assembly. The motor speed sensor detects the electric motor speed and rotational position, and sends this information as a signal to the DI ECU. Due to a software issue, the DI ECU may not be able to determine the rotational position of the motor, which causes a speed sensor error code. This will trigger a “Check EV System” warning message on the instrument panel, turn on a malfunction indicator lamp (MIL), and cause the electric motor to shift to “neutral”, resulting in a complete loss of drive power. A complete loss of drive power may increase the risk of a crash.
6. Chronology of Principal Events:
January - May 2014
Toyota received a dealer report indicating the subject vehicle lost power. Toyota investigated the vehicle. The traction motor assembly was collected and sent to the supplier for analysis. The supplier examined the returned traction motor assembly and found no signs of physical damage. The supplier reviewed the production process and confirmed that there were no changes which could possibly lead to damage of the traction motor assembly. Toyota presumed that this was an isolated case and decided to monitor the field information.
June - October 2014
Toyota received two additional reports in June and September 2014 indicating the loss of drive power. The traction motor assemblies were collected for analysis by the supplier. The investigation of the returned traction motor assemblies found no signs of physical damage and the supplier was not able to identify the cause of the loss of drive power.
November 2014 - February 2015
Additional reports were received, and the supplier continued to investigate the cause of the loss of drive power. During further investigation, the supplier determined that hardware variance is larger than firmware (software) tolerance. This can cause the drive inverter to be unable to determine the rotational position of the motor. If this occurs, a “Check EV System” warning message on the instrument panel will be triggered, a malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) will come on, and the electric motor will shift to “neutral”, resulting in a complete loss of drive power.
March 6, 2015
As of March 5, 2015, Toyota is not aware of any accidents or injuries caused by this condition. Three Toyota field reports and eight warranty claims have been received that relate or may relate to this condition. Multiple counts of the same incident are counted separately.
-- end quote --
There surely have been more than 11 incidents posted here involving the Model S where they've lost propulsion while in motion.
5,600 Fiat 500e EVs recalled for buggy software involved also involved losing power on the Fiat 500e.
-- begin quote --
Report Receipt Date: MAR 27, 2015
NHTSA Campaign Number: 15V179000
Component(s): ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
Manufacturer: Chrysler (FCA US LLC)
SUMMARY:
Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling certain model year 2013-2015 Fiat 500 EV vehicles manufactured March 27, 2012, to November 1, 2014. If the vehicle goes in to limp home mode, incompatible software between Electric Vehicle Control Unit (EVCU) and Battery Pack Control Module (BPCM) may cause the electric propulsion system to fully shut down.
CONSEQUENCE:
An electric propulsion system shut down will cause a stall-like condition, increasing the risk of a crash.
REMEDY:
Chrysler will notify owners, and dealers will update the vehicle software to ensure compatability between components, free of charge. The recall is expected to begin May 15, 2015...
-- end quote --
If none of these and all of the other "loss of power" safety recalls that I posted examples of weren't actually safety defects, why did they get recalled? Were the automakers and/or NHTSA wrong? And, with each new loss propulsion recall that automakers issue, they continue to be wrong?
BMW and Nissan are wrong to initiate these recalls, right? Nissan, BMW Recall Vehicles to Fix Problems With Fuel Pumps - ABC News
-- begin quote --
Both automakers say in documents posted Friday by government safety regulators that improper nickel plating inside the pump can cause them to fail. That can cause engines to stall and increase the risk of a crash. Both companies used pumps made by the same supplier, Robert Bosch.
-- end quote --
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You really needed to revive this thread? Does the Model S stalling disable the airbags like the GM cases? Sure, stalling on the highway isn't good and if it happens frequently go ahead and report it. Do you have a Model S? You spend most of your time on this site trying to get people to report things to the NTHSA.
Not really... but it was just further illustration of recent safety recalls, including one on a Tesla-powered vehicle, the Rav4 EV.
No. But it doesn't on the Rav4 EV nor the Fiat 500e nor the Focus Electric (NHTSA Finally Issues Official Recall Notice for 2,456 Ford Focus Electric Vehicles | Inside EVs) nor on numerous other stalling/loss of power recalls.
No, but that doesn't change the fact that losing propulsion not due to user error is a safety issue.
Absolutely not. I've spent a ton of time on here on threads (mostly reading) unrelated to that. And, I've made dozens of posts here between 2014-07-12 and today that have NOTHING to do w/convincing people people to report safety defects to NHTSA.
I stopped reading and responding to this thread for ages because I have other priorities and numerous other things to do. And, I'd lost the motivation to continue trying to convince people who seemingly aren't convinced.
It's clear some of you are stubborn. Perhaps one day you will be convinced. Or, maybe someday there will be a recall(s) from Tesla for some lose of propulsion/stalling case with the words "may increase cause of crash" (or something to that effect). I wonder if you folks will be convinced then.
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People here seem convinced that if a legitimate safety issue is there that Tesla isn't addressing that they'd report it. You seem to feel reporting everything even windshield wiper issues is important and to let the NTHSA sort it out. Just a different philosophy. You see this as stubborn, some of us see using a limited resource like the NTHSA's investigation time for important issues as a misuse of resources.
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santana338
Member
OK, I'll risk getting pulled into the vortex. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tesla hasn't really had any recall at all, right? I mean they changed the production line to put in the titanium shield and offered to retrofit any car that wanted a shield, but that wasn't really a recall.
As far as I can see Tesla is continuing to "do the right thing" in terms of correcting any problem that customers have. Is it up to the manufacturer to notify customers to fix any issues (like Tesla is doing by email) or do these things have to be recalls?
As far as contacting NHTSA, I agree that would be something I wouldn't even consider unless my problems were not being addressed by the manufacturer. That goes for any vehicle, not just my Tesla.
As far as I can see Tesla is continuing to "do the right thing" in terms of correcting any problem that customers have. Is it up to the manufacturer to notify customers to fix any issues (like Tesla is doing by email) or do these things have to be recalls?
As far as contacting NHTSA, I agree that would be something I wouldn't even consider unless my problems were not being addressed by the manufacturer. That goes for any vehicle, not just my Tesla.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
I don't even understand the point of bringing anything discussed in this thread to the NHTSA, when the problems are generally fixed before they'd even be able to finish logging the complaint into their system.
Wasn't the power-train shutdown fixed, via OTA update, in less than a week? And you could completely remove the issue by not using range mode? Could the NHTSA even respond quick enough to be useful in any way?
Wasn't the power-train shutdown fixed, via OTA update, in less than a week? And you could completely remove the issue by not using range mode? Could the NHTSA even respond quick enough to be useful in any way?
The only recall I'm aware of was the 14-50 adapter and software recall after that garage burnt down.
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A government agency isn't going to make things any better, and it definately won't happen any FASTER.
Do you have a threshhold for reporting issues that might be a safety issue? Taking the issue of a car that suddenly loses power as an example, would you report it if you had a broken timing belt? What about a clogged fuel filter? What about a broken belt causing you to overheat or lose power steering? Do you believe that you have an obligation to report any incident related to loss of power to the NHTSA? I'm not trying to troll you at all, I'm genuinely curious.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Browsing the NHTSA site there's 3 complaints related to the shut down, but I guess Tesla addressed that quickly enough that there really weren't any future complaints.
And it seems people tend to report first to Tesla and only to NHTSA if they really feel like it's a big safety issue. I believe that's true of other manufacturers too because for a lot of the recalls the manufacturer gets a lot more reports of complaints than the NHTSA. The main difference seems to be reporting to NHTSA is public (increases negative PR for manufacturer which might push them to move faster, but that doesn't seem to work for larger manufacturers and for Tesla only seems to mainly lower stock price) and there's a possibility of a NHTSA initiated recall (although that tends to take at least a year).
A manufacturer can issue a TSB or similar fix a lot faster if they acknowledge the issue (some manufacturers don't, which is what NHTSA is there for). So I guess the procedure should be always to report issues to Tesla with no exception, but to NHTSA is optional (make your own decision on if it's safety related).
And it seems people tend to report first to Tesla and only to NHTSA if they really feel like it's a big safety issue. I believe that's true of other manufacturers too because for a lot of the recalls the manufacturer gets a lot more reports of complaints than the NHTSA. The main difference seems to be reporting to NHTSA is public (increases negative PR for manufacturer which might push them to move faster, but that doesn't seem to work for larger manufacturers and for Tesla only seems to mainly lower stock price) and there's a possibility of a NHTSA initiated recall (although that tends to take at least a year).
A manufacturer can issue a TSB or similar fix a lot faster if they acknowledge the issue (some manufacturers don't, which is what NHTSA is there for). So I guess the procedure should be always to report issues to Tesla with no exception, but to NHTSA is optional (make your own decision on if it's safety related).
I believe that Tesla is required to provide copies of all TSBs to the NHTSA as well as to self-report any potentially safety-related defects to them, FWIW.
1. '85 Olds Cutlass Ciera, failure of a distributor shaft following engine rebuild.
2. The same '85 Olds Cutlass Ciera, failure of the nylon timing chain.
3. '94 Olds Cutlass Supreme, failure of ECM wiring harness shorted and blew a fuse, shutting down the car.
4. Just about any 4-cylinder car made in the 1980's, just file back in line and pull to the right.
In none of these cases did I think it was appropriate to run to mommy government, nor did I think I was protecting the manufacturer. I made it to the shoulder safely in every single case of car malfunction I've ever had.
Sorry, Charlie, but the NHSTA is an oversight agency that has an appropriate role when the customer-vendor relationship fails. Government is the LEAST effective way to solve something that is more appropriately directed toward the manufacturer and/or servicer, until that direction proves unfruitful.
