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There seem to a be a few folks, like you, who are very adamant that legitimate safety defects on cars shouldn't be reported to NHTSA. That's just wrongheaded. And, you guys seem real vocal about it.
On every other car forums, people don't get jumped on for telling people who have experienced legitimate safety defects to report them to NHTSA.
I am NOT for government oversight of Tesla. You have the opinion/attitude that it's better that NHTSA not get problem reports at all, except maybe if the automaker is unresponsive. Well, when vehicles suffer fatal problems that renders them inoperable, are unsafe to driver or are clearly safety defects while under warranty, yeah, most automakers will respond and generally fix. But using your "logic", that means most safety defects will be unreported to NHTSA. That's no good.
Some of the folks on other threads who said "don't report to NHTSA" because it's not recall-worthy (in their eyes) seem to have insufficient knowledge of what cars have been recalled for. Great...
Ok. I think you've definitely made your point on this. Everything should be reported no matter how small since it might turn into something big. Others disagree. Please feel free to contribute to other areas of the forum. You seem laser focused on simply trying to get people to report things.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I suppose this is related, but it shows how quickly the media gets hold of NHTSA complaints (even just a single one):
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/09/25/tesla-model-s-involved-in-unintended-acceleration-incident/
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/09/25/tesla-model-s-involved-in-unintended-acceleration-incident/
NigelM
Recovering Member
Sure, but NTHSA complaints are made all the time for all makes and models. Do all of them or even a small set of them trigger media coverage?
We obviously aren't 100% certain that (yet?) that the above was an actual safety defect or driver error. Are you implying that the given the person involved seemed pretty certain that it wasn't driver error shouldn't have reported it to NHTSA?
There are definitely some cases where it's impossible or difficult to get an automaker to resolve an issue (e.g. car totaled, driver died, rental car, loaner car, etc.)
BTW, I spotted this in the news today: Nissan, Mazda recall cars - Sep. 29, 2013
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Since my original reply was to a windshield wiper failure (Scary not great PR, BUT extraordinary service - Page 2) and my assertion that it should've been reported as a safety complaint to NHTSA, as it is a safety defect and there have been plenty of other windshield wiper failure recalls, here's a current one:
Toyota | Toyota Announces Voluntary Recall to Replace Wiper Switches
Toyota | Toyota Announces Voluntary Recall to Replace Wiper Switches
I believe that they all get converted to all caps.
I plan to start a separate informational thread on tin whiskers and drivability problems as a result of them that have affected Camrys and a related issue on Gen 1 Priuses (NHW11).
See Accelerator Rebuild - lessons learned | PriusChat. Especially interesting were slides 8 and 13 of http://web.archive.org/web/20130601050821/http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/tech_papers/2011-NASA-GSFC-whisker-failure-app-sensor.pdf.
I'm not saying this has anything to do w/this incident but it was real interesting to me.
On the Gen 2 Prius (NHW20, aka 04-09 model year), AFAIK, their going to Hall effect sensors eliminated the issue w/the NHW11.
edit: New thread at Tin whiskers in accelerator pedal mechanisms - MIL or drivability problems.
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Yep, or legal reasons, in general.
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sp4rk
Banned
What makes an owner file an NHTSA complaint?
I would never do that unless all avenues at Tesla had been exhausted.
I would never do that unless all avenues at Tesla had been exhausted.
It's possible the insurance company is requiring him to report it, sort of like having to file a police report to get insurance to pay for a stolen car.
If it is a real unintended acceleration issue, it's not his fault. In "No Fault" insurance states that might not matter, but in some states his rates will go up if it was his error.
If everyone had your attitude, then a LOT of safety defects would go unreported, which is not a good thing, in my book.
I don't know of any place on NHTSA's site/safercar.gov that says to only report safety defects to them if they remain unresolved.
If I experienced a legitimate safety defect, I'd report to NHTSA after the automaker has resolved the issue and indicated the cause. There are some cases in which resolution is impossible or highly inconvenient (e.g. rental car, loaner car, car totaled in accident as a result, etc.)
I'd previously posted that someone w/a windshield wiper failure should report to NHTSA and some of my posts and the responses got moved to When to report NHTSA issues?.
I'm somewhat of a fan of Toyota and Nissan (have both vehicles, currently, had other Toyotas and Nissans in the past, as well). If I hit a legit safety defect with either of them, I'd report it to NHTSA. When my dad's 02 Rav4 (crappy vehicle, IMHO) leaked fuel, it turned out to be some sort of loose connection at the fuel rail, per the dealer who fixed it. After the repair, I told him to file a safety complaint w/NHTSA.
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Ridiculous behavior on the part of those who downrated them!
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[Mod Note: this post and resulting discussion moved here from - Stranded-Feeling-like-George-Clooney]
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So, OP, are you going to file a safety complaint w/NHTSA now that Tesla theoretically resolved your issue?
Same goes for anyone else who had theirs shutdown and lose power while driving.
As I've pointed out, million of cars have been recalled before and will continue to be for "losing power"/"stalling".
In fact, here's this right now: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/toyota-recall-idUST9N0KP02J20140212 (One of my cars is a Gen 2 Prius, which isn't affected by this).
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So, OP, are you going to file a safety complaint w/NHTSA now that Tesla theoretically resolved your issue?
Same goes for anyone else who had theirs shutdown and lose power while driving.
As I've pointed out, million of cars have been recalled before and will continue to be for "losing power"/"stalling".
In fact, here's this right now: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/toyota-recall-idUST9N0KP02J20140212 (One of my cars is a Gen 2 Prius, which isn't affected by this).
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And how does someone experiencing the failure know that it's a "random failure" vs. "systematic"?
I didn't say there should be a recall. I merely strongly suggest those who have experienced a legitimate safety defect (not user error) should file a safety complaint w/NHTSA, and it'd be better to do it once the issue has been resolved so that it's known what was down to remedy/attempt to remedy it, if anything.
If NHTSA believes there is a systemic issue, they might initiate an investigation which might lead to a recall. And, if there's a recall, that means a free repair to improve the safety of the affected vehicles, possibly yours. Often investigations are never begun and sometimes investigations are closed.
Have you looked at my post at Main Battery and 12V battery failure in the middle of the intersection. - Page 3 on this and examples of documentation I posted at Right front door popped open while driving. Here's another for a different recall, http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM439269/RCDNN-13V235-2333.pdf.
They came from field reports of failures! If nobody reports...
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Kraken
Member
So, he gets a warning and has enough time to nearly get home, and you think it's nhtsa worthy? That's the point of a warning. Nothing is going to have a zero failure rate. If you are looking for a zero failure rate out of products, god forbid you ever touch a mechanical pencil.... Guess what the lead breaks. I've had an alternator die on me in the middle of an intersection leaving me stuck pushing the car to the curb to get out of the way. warning light came on, but I pressed to test (like the op, who tried to get home). Should I have phoned the nhtsa? Sorry, I didn't. All you've proved is you have no common sense and also routinely post asking people to beg for a recall.
The OP's and your safety defect were both worth of reporting to NHTSA.
He didn't make it home and his distance from home makes virtually no difference about whether it should be reported.
Why is it that if he lost power 1/4 mile from home it shouldn't be reported? What if he was 1/4 mile away from home at highway speeds in the fast lane or middle lane? What if he were trying to merge onto a speeding highway when he lost power?
I'm not begging for a recall. I'm simply strongly encouraging ANYONE who experiences a legitimate safety defect w/their vehicle not due to user error or non-conformance w/FMVSS report it to NHTSA. It'd be better to wait until the manufacturer has attempted to resolve the issue, but that's no always possible (e.g. rental car, not your car, car severely damaged or totaled in resulting accident, etc.)
See my earlier stance on it. I'm somewhat of a fan of Toyota and Nissan and I'd have no hesitation in reporting a safety defect if I experienced it in my Toyota or Nissan after an attempts at resolution and repair were made, so that at least we know what they fixed/tried to fix.
Should reporting a safety defect to NHTSA be the first thing he did? No. But not doing it at all??? Think bigger picture people!
AMPd
Well-Known Member
Do you work for NHTSA?
Seems like every one of your posts is about NHTSA and how we should all report everything to them, its as if youre getting fired for lack of reports coming in!
Kraken
Member
lol. Seriously man, as a pilot, I'm begging you to never step foot on a plane ever again. We have all sorts of warning annunciators that let us know when something breaks. Sometimes we even are able to takeoff with a warning annunciator lit for degraded equipment, because we can still get the job done. Sometimes (actually, more than 50% of the time from what I've seen) warning annunciators come on in flight, and we limp the plane to whatever the most reasonable destination is. Guess what, almost none of the time is any of that actually noteworthy to the FAA and thus isn't reported.
I'm not sure what utopia you live in, but here on Earth "stuff" happens and things break. That's where warning annunciators come in. They let you know "stuff" happened and it is time to get to safety and have the issue looked at. In that case, the car worked exactly as prescribed and it would be a waste of time and money to involve a government agency. Both my and and the ops situation do not require govt intervention unless they were systematic issues and the warning was not working properly.
Speaking of waste, this response is probably wasted effort. Based on your considering my alternator issue nhtsa worthy, I'm pretty certain that every car ever built would have an issue at some point that you would feel needs to be reported to the nhtsa. At some point in any vehicles life, the alternator is going to fail or some other similar loss of performance will occur.
think bigger picture. Govt agencies only have the resources to really focus on the most prudent of issues. Why do you think this govt has had such trouble staying afloat financially?
Well, to me it sure seems like crying "the sky is falling" way too early, and dragging the NHTSA immediately into it when the car gave decent warning time just doesn't make sense IMO. Sounds like someone who is trying to drum up negative headlines. Not an accusation -- that's what it sounds like.
