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On today's TMC Podcast, we ask the question "What is the Tesla Cybercab?". Join us on YouTube live at 1PM and participate in the chat.
Yeah, I am not sure this point was understood by all. As you make the conductive wire thinner and thinner, there would be more resistance, and so more energy wasted as heat, reducing overall charging efficiency. I suppose keeping the wire cooler helps somewhat... If you circulated liquid helium and turned it into a superconductor you could probably use hair thin wire.... I assume the new SCs just take away excessive heat, but don't try to cool the wire below ambient temps. (In others words, no air-conditioning compressor / chiller inside.) I don't know the resistance difference between the new cooler/thinner wire, and the old fatter/hotter wire. Also, we don't know if the materials are the same. For instance, if the old wire was aluminum, and the new wire was silver you could get away with thinner wire and have the same resistance. (But, I am just assuming both old and new are copper, but who knows - metallurgy could be part of this change.)
Anyways, I find this whole effort to be somewhat exciting and intriguing. Tesla (in general) is never satisfied with their current products and is always working on ways to make improvements. I don't think we (as general consumers) were seeing this possibility or making noise asking for it, but Tesla cooked up some magic in their R&D and now we get to see if it pushes the whole industry forward. The previous generation charging infrastructure from the 1990s ("Avcon" & "Paddle") were not properly maintained and generally fell into states of disrepair since most sites had no champion to keep them maintained. Tesla has a growing base of SC equipment that will require a continued level of maintenance to keep the whole system running. I think the overall reliability (say for instance if it was 3 years MTBF instead of 8 years MTBF) is really incidental compared to having staff available to go out and fix things when they go wrong. I think gasoline pumps are more complex, and a lot of mechanical things to go wrong, but you generally don't see gas stations with many broken pumps. They fix problems right away when something goes wrong. I think a critical factor is that Tesla owns and maintains (nearly) all of the SCs. If they just gave them away and expected others to maintain them, I think we would have a lot less hope that they will be reliably maintained.
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In terms of what I underlined in No2D's comment, JB Straubel said about two years ago that Tesla is looking to get SuperCharging down to 5-10 minutes. He did say it was quite challenging, and not something we would see near term, but it was clear Tesla aspires to make this happen.
fwiw, I agree, this is very exciting. Too those of us at TMC it's pretty clear that EVs like Tesla's are better than ICE, but I suspect getting SuperCharging under 15 minutes will make this pretty clear to the bulk of the general public. All ICE cars will have left as a selling point will be the roar of the engine that some people like (I'm assuming by the time SuperCharging is that fast, you'll be able to buy Tesla's with ~400 miles of range).
It's not going to happen with the current cells. They won't suck up juice at those rates and get very very hot when they take in what they can (~1.6C most I've seen in testing).
I plan to do some more testing on this when I have time and can do so safely (like, inside a well fire proofed enclosure).
I plan to do some more testing on this when I have time and can do so safely (like, inside a well fire proofed enclosure).
Makes sense. It wont be too long until there are new cells... no guarantee that a particular new iteration will be able to take higher charging rates, but something they undoubtably consider. fwiw, I think we're on the cusp of a new cell with GF production about to start within a year (some think the 70D already has it), and based on a couple of different clues from Tesla I'd guess the next new cell will be used beginning about 2019-2020.
Really?
You don't have automated, unmanned gas stations where you live?
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In addition to the 70D, there is also the upcoming Model X reveal. It could include a new battery with new cells. Or it could not.
The closest we get are some stations that allow at-pump credit card payments to use them after hours. And generally these ones are wired to the brim with security cameras and such. For the most part the stations are manned.
In NJ it is actually illegal to pump your own gasoline and you must let an attendant do it for you.
Thank you for sharing.
This is one part I really love about TMC, getting to share on a global scale and hearing different perspectives.
FWIW, I've visited unmanned, fully automated gas stations in several European countries. They actually look a bit like those Superchargers with roofs. There is usually no other building, just the tanks under a roof.
Here is a photo of a UK one. It is an urban location, but they can be in non-urban surroundings as well.
Filling station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've seen unmanned gas stations in Kansas (along I-70) and regular gas stations often were open but unmanned at night in Colorado...at least before 2001.
I love seeing this quote from this particular author.
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I don't remember the exact wording but I think it was something like "refueling". My recollection is that this was answered by swapping not by faster charging.
Hmm... I see the irony.
Henceforth instead of "over-engineered" we can say something "looks like wk057's idea of fun".
Here's some real world data from a Renault Zoe showing it pulling 42kW continuous from 8% to 72% SOC. It has a 22kWh battery.
The highest real-world example I could find for a Nissan Leaf is 44kW DC from a CHAdeMO point. It has a 24kWh battery.
Both of these represent considerably higher C rates than the Model S permits.
I love seeing this quote from this particular author.
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I don't remember the exact wording but I think it was something like "refueling". My recollection is that this was answered by swapping not by faster charging.
Nope, it was clearly SuperCharging not swap.
Tesla CTO JB Straubel Says His Company Can Charge Electric Vehicles, With No Battery Swapping, in Five Minutes | MIT Technology Review
I happen to think even getting it to under 15 minutes would be a very big lever in building demand for Tesla caliber EVs.
No doubt. I think there's likely to be a new battery chemistry just about now... I'd be happy if that could get to 80% charge in under a half hour. As to JB's 5-10 minutes, I'd be happy if that ends up being 80-90% in under 15 minutes with the following chemistry, which given a few comments, it seems they are targeting for 4-5 years from now.
If Tesla gets the charging under 10 minutes on a 400 mile range car (something else some Musk comments suggest they are looking to hit in 4-5 years), it basically leaves things like nationalism, quite intense brand loyalty, possibly lack of access to home charging, and a love of the sound of an ICE as the only reasons to prefer a gasoline car. It's not that I think Tesla needs this to have enough demand, it's that I think this will put demand over 50% of the market (obviously way more demand than Tesla could supply) and act as part of Elon's spur to get incumbent automakers to transition to EVs. I'd still expect it to take decades.
That's the discussion I recall seeing some time ago as well.
Obviously a future implementation that requires changes in battery chemistry, DC fast chargers, supply wire gauges, perhaps BMS systems, etc...
IOW: An entirely new platform.
JER
Member
IIRC, graphene foam negative electrodes are a feature of several high power density battery designs (typically at the lab press release state of readiness - i.e. not ready.) Better intercalation of ions, durability and conductivity apparently make existing chemistries work better and currently impractical ones (like lithium sulphur) actually work.
We might see some very compelling advances in charging time if someone manages to work out mass production of electrodes with this material. With Elon's strategy of putting design and production staff together, the Gigafactory might be a good place to try doing this.
Tesla's integrated approach - cell, pack, charger, etc. - is looking very clever indeed to me right now.
We might see some very compelling advances in charging time if someone manages to work out mass production of electrodes with this material. With Elon's strategy of putting design and production staff together, the Gigafactory might be a good place to try doing this.
Tesla's integrated approach - cell, pack, charger, etc. - is looking very clever indeed to me right now.
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