Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Potentially, the downsizing of the fuel cell stack and supporting systems would make the space for the bigger battery just like it makes the money available. The charger is neither big nor expensive in the grand scheme of things.

Interesting article, I'd somehow missed that. The original concept from a couple years ago was the lone example I'd mentioned before; none of the articles I saw then suggested it was even a candidate for production. I'm still not sure it makes sense overall - but it makes much more sense than any other FCEV.

You probably missed it because people don't care much about HFCV any more. Eyes are on PEV.

You can only downsize the fuell-cell stack so much and you can't downsize the hydrogen tanks. Maybe it gets there. But if it'd work on cost, it implies cheap batteries. And cheap batteries implies BEV.

Fun facts: Clarity FCV curb weight is 4,134lb, Mirai 4,075lb. Clarity PHEV curb weight is 4,052lb. Can't even point to a weight advantage over PHEVs and long-range BEVs at the moment.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Reforming and catalyzed electrolysis are both relatively efficient. 65-75% and 70%. Then you need compression and use.

You're missing the purification step after reforming, and distribution after (or before) compression. Unfortunately, reforming natural gas doesn't get you to the 99.99% purity required for use in an FCEV, and most H2 isn't produced at the stations themselves.

The other issue with utilizing H2 is the high cost of maintaining the equipment, which is often ignored in conversations comparing H2 with electricity generation.

 

[mspohr]

Fuel cells are horribly inefficient

 

[ggr]

Methane does that too... why Hydrogen? That's what I don't understand... Methane is cheaper, safer and easier to transport.

... but not zero emissions.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

... but not zero emissions.

Shifting the emissions from the tailpipe doesn't really make it zero emissions. This argument has been used against BEVs, of course, but the difference is that BEVs have far more control over where their energy comes from, and they're considerably more efficient at using said energy. As it stands now 95% of H2 comes from NG, and that's not going to change anytime soon. California has mandated that 1/3 of H2 must come from RE sources, but the rest of the country/world has no such stipulation, and even the California mandate has a loophole that would allow a station operator to ignore it.

Heck, Japan is now purchasing brown coal derived H2 from Australia. So, not only was it made from the absolute dirtiest form of coal, it is then put on one of the most polluting means of transportation for delivery.

Victoria turns coal to hydrogen for Japan

On the other hand, California's grid mix is 70% non-GGE, with electricity rates that are considerably cheaper than H2. And they don't even have close to the cleanest grid (but they do buy FAR more BEVs than anyone else (outside of China))

FCEVs will never be cheap to run, the stations will never be cheap to operate, and we're simply delaying making real progress at tackling AGW by not outright rejecting the technology.

I realize this may have come across as a bit preachy, but I'm over HFC nonsense.

 

[DanCar]

Though I understand the sentiment, I disagree with the conclusion. I expect hydrogen car fires to get the same level of over exposure as Tesla battery fires have gotten. For one, I expect them to be spectacular, and in today's news world, hydrogen fire spectacular is going to get a lot of coverage.

And a hydrogen explosion, car or station, is going to be ... big coverage. I expect the first explosion to be just about the end of hydrogen fueled vehicles.

Not seeing the big coverage:

1. Eksplosjon på hydrogenstasjon i Sandvika: – Svært overrasket
2. Hydrogen refueling station explodes in Norway; Toyota, Hyundai halt FCV sales - LeftLaneNews

 

[mspohr]

Fire sale on the Mirai
Toyota Mirai gets deepest discount yet—amid hydrogen shortage
The two modest fuel-cell models you can currently purchase (versus lease) both carry luxury-vehicle prices: a base $59,430 for the 2019 Toyota Mirai and a base $59,345 for the eco-focused Hyundai Nexo Blue. Trade-in or resale value remains an unknown. And at the last time we filled with hydrogen, last October, it cost $17.49 per kilogram—potentially up to a $75 fill for the 312-mile Mirai or a $110 fill for the 380-mile Nexo B

CarsDirect crunched the numbers and found that for the savings (for a narrow subset of shoppers, admittedly) could add up to more than $42,000.

 

[ralph142]

Fire sale on the Mirai
Toyota Mirai gets deepest discount yet—amid hydrogen shortage
The two modest fuel-cell models you can currently purchase (versus lease) both carry luxury-vehicle prices: a base $59,430 for the 2019 Toyota Mirai and a base $59,345 for the eco-focused Hyundai Nexo Blue. Trade-in or resale value remains an unknown. And at the last time we filled with hydrogen, last October, it cost $17.49 per kilogram—potentially up to a $75 fill for the 312-mile Mirai or a $110 fill for the 380-mile Nexo B

CarsDirect crunched the numbers and found that for the savings (for a narrow subset of shoppers, admittedly) could add up to more than $42,000.

$.24 a mile is saving ? compared to what ? tesla model 3, $ .023 a mile here. honda accord, 30 mpg, $.13 a mile.

 

[RiverBrick]

Trade-in or resale value remains an unknown

Up in the thread, someone already showed how they're asking as low as $14,500 for the originally $59k '16 Mirai. I wonder what they actually sell for after negotiation.

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...088&rd=99999&searchSource=QUICK_FORM&zc=94513

 

[CarlK]

Hydrogen fuel station explosion. You don't hear that from main stream media. Few would car anyway.

Hydrogen Fueling Station Explodes: Toyota & Hyundai Halt Fuel Cell Car Sales

 

[BluestarE3]

Hydrogen fuel station explosion. You don't hear that from main stream media. Few would car anyway.

Hydrogen Fueling Station Explodes: Toyota & Hyundai Halt Fuel Cell Car Sales

And this one a week earlier in Santa Clara:
Bay Area experiences hydrogen shortage after explosion

 

[FlatSix911]

The end is near... Hydrogen station explodes, Toyota halts sales of fuel cell cars, is this the end? - Electrek

 

[GoBlue88]

The end of fuel cell vehicles was so predictable. And I still laugh every time I see a Mirai on the road, which is surprisingly often around here.

Toyota's attitude re: fuel cells vs. BEVs has been so, so dumb.

 

[Ed Hart]

A watershed moment next year?

 

[CarlK]

Wow...that's a real deep hole to get out. Japanese are the most stubborn and insistent people in the world. More so than even the Germans. That sometimes enabled them to reach outcomes otherwise wouldn't be possible but other times it has just the opposite effect. It's definitely the later in this case.

 

[GoBlue88]

A watershed moment next year?

View attachment 419861

Having a hydrogen pipeline completely surrounding and weaving through the athlete's village seems like a really bad idea.

 

[renim]

Having a hydrogen pipeline completely surrounding and weaving through the athlete's village seems like a really bad idea.

on an energy delivery basis, its probably similar to a natural gas pipe, more explosive but quicker dissipating. Just requires understanding of the differences and design accordingly.

 

[renim]

There is a direct thermal way to obtain hydrogen, which must be attractive for the Japanese. (can add to nuclear plant)

long term, its only a single boost step up for a geothermal deposit output to go from 250 Celsius to 500 Celsius. Effectively this is also a planetary wide option for many nations, just drill with skill

 

[mspohr]

Di

There is a direct thermal way to obtain hydrogen, which must be attractive for the Japanese. (can add to nuclear plant)
View attachment 420425

long term, its only a single boost step up for a geothermal deposit output to go from 250 Celsius to 500 Celsius. Effectively this is also a planetary wide option for many nations, just drill with skill

Direct thermal plus electricity.
Simple, except it's not.
Efficiency?

 

[mblakele]

There is a direct thermal way to obtain hydrogen, which must be attractive for the Japanese. (can add to nuclear plant)
View attachment 420425

long term, its only a single boost step up for a geothermal deposit output to go from 250 Celsius to 500 Celsius. Effectively this is also a planetary wide option for many nations, just drill with skill

Copper–chlorine cycle - Wikipedia

Seems to be big with the nuclear crowd, who are looking for ways to ensure their future. Drawbacks seems to include:

• working fluids are corrosive, which may increase long-term costs
• high energy requirements: a 2005 study predicts ~30% efficiency; a 2011 study predicts 45%
• unproven technology: many studies, simulations, even lab-scale reactors — but I couldn't find a pilot plant

If it works out, which sounds like it's probably 10 years out, you'd have a decent source of hydrogen that doesn't depend on fossil fuels. However there's still very little infrastructure out there to store and distribute hydrogen, and it's challenging stuff to work with.

So if and when this Cu-Cl cycle works out, I'd favor setting it up close to an industrial source of CO2, maybe a cement plant. Use that CO2 to turn H2 into CH4 (which generates some waste heat to feed back into the Cu-Cl cycle), then store the CH4 in any nearby natural gas storage field — we have lots of those. Whenever the sun isn't shining, we can burn this green CH4 in an efficient combined-cycle turbine, generating electricity and feeding CO2 back into the cycle.

I definitely wouldn't fuel a car with H2. That's what batteries are for.