Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[nativewolf]

Ford probably came to the conclusion that not only is Tesla ahead of everyone in the charging world by sheer numbers, but Tesla's tech is also better tech and easier to use connectors.

Those CCS fast charging connectors are pretty large. Someone who is smaller might struggle to maneuver that thing. A relatively small kid can handle a Tesla charging plug quite easily and the charging plug is universal to application, it's the same for both DC and AC chargers.

Someone in another thread or possibly this one posted a video made by Edmunds where they did a tow test between a Ford F150 Lightning and a Rivian over a route from the suburbs of Los Angeles, over the Grapevine, out to Mojave, and back. They talked about the roulette you have to play with CCS charges working or not. That's much less of a problem with Tesla chargers. I have run into some superchargers with problems, but it's much rarer with superchargers than with CCS.

CCS is also way behind with very fast chargers. There are a lot of 50KW CCS chargers around, but the high power chargers are few and far between. It also require some digging to find out whether the CCS charger you're headed to is high power or not. It's a lot of work that takes someone with some skill to sort out. With Tesla, you can know for sure that the slowest chargers are still three times the power of the slower CCS chargers and you can almost be certain that there will be some stalls working fine when you get there. You may have to wait, but at least you know when you plug in you're probably not going to be stuck there for 2-3 hours waiting to get enough to get to the next charger.

I have never used a non-Tesla fast charger, but I have seen videos and read articles from people who have and the experience difference is night and day. No worries about entering your credit card information, worries about which network the charger is on, worries about the speed of the charger, worries about whether the chargers are all down, or whether the two chargers available at the location are in use with a line. There are some small supercharger locations, the smallest I've seen is 5, but all of those locations now have alternatives with a large number of chargers fairly close by. Unless you pull in with 1% state of charge, you can make it to the larger location nearby.

Ease of use is not that different IMO, between tesla and others. Not enough to make a difference. The difference to me is the gaps in the EA coverages for long road trips. Tesla has built the supercharger network out to enable trips and longer distance trips and on my trips it would have made some legs much easier. Also there are lots of Teslas charging on EA stations in certain areas because they are a few cents/kwh cheaper. Noticed that in Alabama and TX and TN. At least in my mind it just makes Ford EVs a more practical choice for longer trips. Ford's trying.

 

[navguy12]

Ease of use is not that different IMO, between tesla and others. Not enough to make a difference. The difference to me is the gaps in the EA coverages for long road trips. Tesla has built the supercharger network out to enable trips and longer distance trips and on my trips it would have made some legs much easier. Also there are lots of Teslas charging on EA stations in certain areas because they are a few cents/kwh cheaper. Noticed that in Alabama and TX and TN. At least in my mind it just makes Ford EVs a more practical choice for longer trips. Ford's trying.

My wife is very petite and she cannot manhandle the CCS plug for her Kona EV. She has no issues using the supercharger plug for my TM3.

 

[KJD]

Ford probably came to the conclusion that not only is Tesla ahead of everyone in the charging world by sheer numbers, but Tesla's tech is also better tech and easier to use connectors.

Yes I agree the numbers are compelling. Ford with this one agreement more than doubled the number of charge stations that will be available to their them.

I would also point out that Ford has been really frustrated with the hit and miss reliability of the CCS networks. I think after a year of trying to pressure EA and the others to do better they just finally gave up and decided to go another route. Gutsy move by Jim Farley and one that will pay huge dividends for the company and Ford EV owners alike.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

There is understandable confusion from that picture @Gauss Guzzler posted.
If the device existed as listed in the image text, it would be a Tesla SpC to CCS1 adapter (note CCS connector has the latch, so it is not a CCS charger to Tesla vehicle adapter).
However, the watermarked website does not sell such an item. The image is from their page discussing the Magic Dock and is a rendering of what a Tesla->CCS1 adapter might look like, when/ if it exists.Magic Dock & Tesla to CCS Adapter • Charge non-Tesla at Supercharger • Ultimate Guide
The device pictured looks like a tweaked image of a CCS1 cable connector with a black clamp.
As found on Ebay:
View attachment 941885

Right. I know the theory, since I do have a NACS->J1772 adapter myself, but I was having difficulty with Gauss Guzzler's assertion that charging at a supercharger was "simply a software unlock". I was under the impression that coordination with Tesla was required as well, which is why such an adapter hasn't "EXISTED" yet.

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla superchargers are already available to anyone, anywhere, worldwide, with the exception of some American stations which have not *yet* been software unlocked.

Another bit of information to show how wrong this is:

Minister Wilkinson Provides Spring Update on Support for Canadian EV Economy, Announces Nearly 3,000 New Chargers in Ontario - Canada.ca

Electric vehicles (EVs) are not only helping keep our air clean, they are helping Canadians save money — from cheaper refuelling to lower maintenance costs. The widespread shift to EVs is also a tremendous economic opportunity as manufacturing jobs are being created across the country to meet...

www.canada.ca

As part of this collaborative effort, Tesla will open a portion of its existing Canadian Supercharger network to non-Tesla electric vehicles, wherever site hosts allow. Later this year, an open Supercharging route will be piloted for EV drivers between Sudbury and Ottawa. Then, by the end of 2025, 750 charging connectors in public locations will be made available to non-Tesla EV drivers, through a combination of retrofits and new construction, of which at least 350 will be 250kW Superchargers. The open chargers will be distributed across Canada, and the route will include the Trans-Canada Highway from Ottawa to Calgary.

So again, Tesla is only going to open a portion of their Superchargers in Canda. But currently none of them are available for use by non-Teslas.

A couple interesting things in that announcement:

• They mentioned they would be opening some where "site hosts allow." Does that mean some site hosts don't want non-Teslas charging there?
• While they are going to open 750 stalls, they are only committing that 350 of them will be 250kW/V3 stalls. (So it sounds like V2s will support CCS.)

 

[mongo]

Another bit of information to show how wrong this is:

Minister Wilkinson Provides Spring Update on Support for Canadian EV Economy, Announces Nearly 3,000 New Chargers in Ontario - Canada.ca

Electric vehicles (EVs) are not only helping keep our air clean, they are helping Canadians save money — from cheaper refuelling to lower maintenance costs. The widespread shift to EVs is also a tremendous economic opportunity as manufacturing jobs are being created across the country to meet...

www.canada.ca

So again, Tesla is only going to open a portion of their Superchargers in Canda. But currently none of them are available for use by non-Teslas.

A couple interesting things in that announcement:

• They mentioned they would be opening some where "site hosts allow." Does that mean some site hosts don't want non-Teslas charging there?
• While they are going to open 750 stalls, they are only committing that 350 of them will be 250kW/V3 stalls. (So it sounds like V2s will support CCS.)

Maybe including destination chargers?
Are urban SpC on V3 another possible category?

 

[Doggydogworld]

Also, I couldn't find any adapter for CCS users to be able to use Tesla superchargers. Can you provide an example of one?

Magic Dock is the only one. Tesla will provide similar adapters to Ford next year which customers can keep in their car. A 3rd party could engineer an adapter, but it'd be useless unless they worked out a deal with Tesla.

I would also point out that Ford has been really frustrated with the hit and miss reliability of the CCS networks. I think after a year of trying to pressure EA and the others to do better they just finally gave up and decided to go another route.

Exactly. Farley has a clear vision - every car works with every charger. Charger networks compete against each other based on price/location/convenience just like gas stations do. If Shell station pumps were out of order half the time Ford owners just go to Chevron or whoever. Why should chargers be different?

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I was having difficulty with Gauss Guzzler's assertion that charging at a supercharger was "simply a software unlock". I was under the impression that coordination with Tesla was required as well, which is why such an adapter hasn't "EXISTED" yet.

Exactly. That's the "software unlock" I referred to. Some intern at Tesla has to press a button and then all the Superchargers will just instantly work for all cars. The code and capability are already there which is how they're able to do it at the touch of a button outside NA. The charger doesn't care what it's connected to, it just sends DC power and simple handshake communications like any other charger, and in NA that can all be passed thru an adapter without the Supercharger even knowing. Surely one could imagine an adapter whose serial number is associated with a Tesla account for billing, for example.

And you guys are fooling yourselves if you think Tesla is going to keep their network private forever, or even worse, keep part of their network private - how frustrating would that be?!! Remember, Tesla only sells you 1 or 2 cars per decade, but Supercharger revenues come in all day, every day, and are essentially "free money". Just like a gas station, all they do is slap a few stalls on a slab of concrete and then profit for eternity by marking up the energy that flows thru. There's a reason Exxon is 10X richer than GM.

 

[MP3Mike]

Exactly. That's the "software unlock" I referred to. Some intern at Tesla has to press a button and then all the Superchargers will just instantly work for all cars. The code and capability are already there which is how they're able to do it at the touch of a button outside NA.

Do you know that for a fact? It very well could be, and likely is, that V2 Superchargers would need a hardware retrofit to be able to talk CCS. (After all they were made from the same chargers that were put into original Model S vehicles, and they can't talk CCS. They talk CAN and not the PLC that CCS uses, that requires different hardware. The older Model S/X vehicles have to have a wiring harness and ECU added to them to support CCS.)

So no, it isn't something an intern can just press a button to enable.

And you guys are fooling yourselves if you think Tesla is going to keep their network private forever, or even worse, keep part of their network private - how frustrating would that be?!

You mean like they are already doing in Europe? Where they have opened the majority but not all of the Supercharger sites. I fully expect Tesla to continue that everywhere. They aren't going to open the already crowded sites to more vehicles, that wouldn't make any sense.

The deal with the US government? To only open a select ~3,500 stalls. (Likely all V3.)
The deal with Canada? To only open a pathway, ~350 250kW, i.e. V3, stalls.
The deal with Ford? To only allow access to V3 Superchargers.

Notice something in common? They all only allow access to V3 stalls.

 

[RobStark]

 

[RobStark]

And you guys are fooling yourselves if you think Tesla is going to keep their network private forever, or even worse, keep part of their network private - how frustrating would that be?!! Remember, Tesla only sells you 1 or 2 cars per decade, but Supercharger revenues come in all day, every day, and are essentially "free money". Just like a gas station, all they do is slap a few stalls on a slab of concrete and then profit for eternity by marking up the energy that flows thru. There's a reason Exxon is 10X richer than GM.

Exxon isn't 10x richer than GM because they retail gasoline.

Supercharger network is not a profit center. It is a demand lever.

 

[wdolson]

Exxon isn't 10x richer than GM because they retail gasoline.

Supercharger network is not a profit center. It is a demand lever.

Yup, Exxon has a larger market than GM and Exxon has a hand in everything from finding the oil, producing it, and all the way to the pump. Plus a petrochemical business beyond gasoline. Retail is a small part of their business, the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

I don't have the numbers handy, but I think Tesla mostly breaks even on superchargers. Even if they do make a small profit, I agree it's a demand lever. I am not in the market for a car now, but if I was Elon Musk's antics the last year would give me pause about Tesla. And Tesla can be difficult to contact a human when you need one, but the fact that I have access to the supercharger network is a big tick in Tesla's favor.

Ford would definitely be considered if I was in the market because the only car dealership less than 30 minutes away is a Ford dealership. It would make service easy. Though they would have to make a vehicle I want. It would depend on what was in production and available when I was shopping. We'll see what they come out with in the next few years.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Exxon isn't 10x richer than GM because they retail gasoline.

Supercharger network is not a profit center. It is a demand lever.

As discussed in another thread, Tesla absolutely makes money on SCs. According to Elon, they make 10% profit with all costs included.

 

[RobStark]

A couple of years ago Elon said Supercharger Network is not a profit center.

I googled "elon musk 10% profit supercharger network"

Elon didn't say Supercharger Network is profitable. But that they aim for profitability.

Average US Supercharger price for electricity is $0.25 per kWh.

Average retail price for US electricity is $0.23 per kWh.

I know that is not exactly what Tesla pays. They get discounts in situations and may have demand charges on top of kWh price.

I still find it hard to believe Supercharger Network is ~10% profitable all cost included.

 

[uscbucsfan]

A couple of years ago Elon said Supercharger Network is not a profit center.

I googled "elon musk 10% profit supercharger network"

View attachment 942802

Elon didn't say Supercharger Network is profitable. But that they aim for profitability.

Average US Supercharger price for electricity is $0.25 per kWh.

Average retail price for US electricity is $0.23 per kWh.

I know that is not exactly what Tesla pays. They get discounts in situations and may have demand charges on top of kWh price.

I still find it hard to believe Supercharger Network is ~10% profitable all cost included.

He said it again at the investor meeting. They aim to make profits on SC, because of course they do.

Believe it or not, that's Teslas goal.

The average is dumb, they get deals on power from some providers. My power company charges .05c a kwh, Tesla charges 31c for SC.

 

[RobStark]

He said it again at the investor meeting. They aim to make profits on SC, because of course they do.

Believe it or not, that's Teslas goal.

I don't find it hard to believe that is Tesla's goal.

I find it hard to believe it is achievable. Tesla has to compete with home charging, other charging networks, and gasoline/diesel networks.

Tesla's goal is also a massively profitable robotaxi network.

 

[uscbucsfan]

I don't find it hard to believe that is Tesla's goal.

I find it hard to believe it is achievable. Tesla has to compete with home charging, other charging networks, and gasoline/diesel networks.

Tesla's goal is also a massively profitable robotaxi network.

Robotaxi is a long ways off.

Again, .05c kwh, charging .31c, how is it difficult to fathom?

 

[khorton]

Robotaxi is a long ways off.

Again, .05c kwh, charging .31c, how is it difficult to fathom?

But, it must cost a fair bit to put in new SC sites. Plus money must be spent to maintain the existing sites, run and maintain the backend software, etc.

 

[uscbucsfan]

But, it must cost a fair bit to put in new SC sites. Plus money must be spent to maintain the existing sites, run and maintain the backend software, etc.

Right, but 10% isn't out of reach and Elon has reiterated that is their goal when they factor in sites.

 

[RobStark]

Robotaxi is a long ways off.

Again, .05c kwh, charging .31c, how is it difficult to fathom?

Average .05c kWh over the network is a fantasy.

At best 10% profitability on Supercharging is a long ways off. If ever.