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Long Term Battery Costs, Fears, and Serviceability

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Skotty

2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
Jun 27, 2013
2,686
2,272
Kansas City, MO
Some thoughts after 10 years of me driving and living with EVs. They do pretty much everything we need them to do (save for fully support pull through towing). We still need better infrastructure, but that's coming. Purchase cost is still an issue. But I think there is really just one major issue that hasn't been dealt with or that doesn't have a clear solution yet.

The primary issues with EVs I think is concerns over how long the expensive batteries will last. If you think you will have to replace a $20K battery every 5 to 10 years, or if you really do, that's a huge problem for the long term prospects of EVs.

What do we know about the batteries at this point?

There is battery degradation, but it's reasonable. As long as you get a battery that is maybe 20%-30% more than you need, it will be sufficient long term.

Occasionally, a battery pack can fail, requiring a battery replacement. This is where the real problem is. Not degradation. But what are the frequency of failures, and how does that frequency change over time? Are the failures typically one cell that goes bad, or are all of the cells going bad just at different rates? These things we don't quite know (do we?).

What are acceptable long term maintenance costs?

We are off to a good start in that most EVs today come with 8 yr warranties on the battery systems. This gets us past paying off loans, after which we should be capable of affording expensive service if needed (or you can switch cars before the 8 yrs is up).

But I don't think it's good enough. It's still a major sore spot for EV value and adoption.

In general, I would think you would probably want a vehicle battery pack to last a confident 20 years. But thinking about this more deeply, we can come up with a metric. If a $20K pack should last 20 years, you could instead say long term maintenance costs on the battery systems should be less than or equal to maybe $1K per year. Is that reasonable? Or is that still too high? Should it be $500 per year? Coming up with this type of metric can help us figure out what solutions are acceptable for future EVs.

Achieving an acceptable service profile for EV batteries I think can go any number of ways.

1) Battery packs that are reliably lasting long enough to meet the service cost criteria.
2) Battery packs that are more modular and serviceable in way where battery costs will typically be smaller service or module replacements that cost a lot less than entire battery replacements. If a battery has a bad cell and is serviceable, you get that one cell or module replaced and get the vehicle back on the road, replacing only the parts that have actually failed. A lot of the cells in a bad pack are probably still fine.
3) Battery packs that are treated as separate products from the actual vehicle. This would open up options like being able to buy the car but lease the battery, or longer term service contracts for batteries (instead of a Tesla 8 yr 100K mile battery warranty, it could be a 20 yr unlimited mile service contract)

Furthermore, it would be a good idea to build battery architecture in a way where DIYers are generally sufficiently safe and capable of doing their own battery service. With some diagnostics assistance from software or readers, a DIYer should be able to determine what cell or module is bad, order a new one, disengage the contactors for the battery and the bad module, and replace that module themselves. This would put it on par with gas car repairs, and would probably make service visits cheaper too when having someone else do it.

I feel like we are headed more towards an option 1, but I would probably prefer option 2 or 3, as option 1 still comes with the bad luck lottery where some folks will have batteries that fail early.

Where do you think we need to be?
 
You shouldn’t have to micro manage a battery, 0% SoC shouldn’t matter and 100% SoC shouldn’t matter

How old a battery is shouldn’t matter only miles/charge cycles should matter

I think that’s a big difference between batteries and ICE, your battery can degrade and go bad just by being old and never driving the car but a ice engine could last 50 years or longer if you only drove the car 1,000 - 2,000 miles per year

If you drove an ev only 1,000 - 2,000 miles per year the battery would still go bad in 10-20 years just from calendar aging, that shouldn’t happen if it wants to be exactly the same as ICE, a battery that’s 50 years old but with only 30k miles should still have 95% of its capacity

When buying used cars you have to look at both the age and mileage of an EV, when buying a used ICE you mostly just look at the miles

If that can’t be solved then battery replacement costs need to be reduced to 5,000 - 7,000 then it wouldn’t be big deal
 
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Definitely want batteries to be replaceable and just cheaper. There's a lot of work to be done to make this possible due to how the battery packs are becoming highly integrated with the EV's themselves structurally and the need for battery replacements that aren't fly by night in terms of quality, but this seems like the way forward.

A bit of a side tangent, but I fiddle with handheld electronics a lot, and AA powered stuff is just so much less of a headache than dealing with integrated battery failures and replacements.
 
Definitely want batteries to be replaceable and just cheaper. There's a lot of work to be done to make this possible due to how the battery packs are becoming highly integrated with the EV's themselves structurally and the need for battery replacements that aren't fly by night in terms of quality, but this seems like the way forward.

A bit of a side tangent, but I fiddle with handheld electronics a lot, and AA powered stuff is just so much less of a headache than dealing with integrated battery failures and replacements.
Yea how does Tesla replace a battery under warranty if it’s integrated into the cars body? Isn’t the model y like this?
 
Battery packs are similar to the risks of ICE power trains.
After 10 years or 100,000 miles, the risks of a gas motor needing expensive service are similar.
Some simple ICE engines can go much longer, but those with the power output of a typical Tesla are at similar risk of needing replacement or rebuilding. These costs are also similar to battery replacement costs.

Good news is that battery technology and recycling abilitity are getting better over time. Battery degradation is better controlled, and battery packs are lasting longer.

It is envisioned that degraded battery packs will be able to be cost efficively recycled for raw materials, and many will be repurposed as home/commercial battery backups. When
no longer providing acceptable range, they will be totally sufficient as a home backup power supply.

Currently Tesla warranties their batteries for 8 years against excessive degradation or failure.

I do not worry about battery failures any more than I did for my ICE engines previously.
 
Yea how does Tesla replace a battery under warranty if it’s integrated into the cars body? Isn’t the model y like this?
The word ”structural” had been misinterpreted during long time now.

Structural means that the pack is part of the car body/chassis taking up forces.
It does not mean that it can not be taken out of the car.

The windscreen is a structural part on most new cars, actually been likevthis the last ~ 40 years or so. They can be changed ;)
 
Battery packs are similar to the risks of ICE power trains.
After 10 years or 100,000 miles, the risks of a gas motor needing expensive service are similar.
Yes, tell me about it.

I still have a Audi A5 Sportback.
177K km, so i made the bigger 180K km service.
I have banked this car witj frekvent oil changes with the best oil.

Still, the timing chaim tensioner broke.
With the hearts in the pit of the throat I found the vavles etc to most probably had survived. The standard is that the valves brakes off and the engine is generally broken.
Fixing it myself for ~ 500 usd/Euro but if the valves had hit the pistons, it would probably be a even race to a new refurbished battery in a 3…
 
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Battery packs are similar to the risks of ICE power trains.
After 10 years or 100,000 miles, the risks of a gas motor needing expensive service are similar.
Some simple ICE engines can go much longer, but those with the power output of a typical Tesla are at similar risk of needing replacement or rebuilding. These costs are also similar to battery replacement costs.

Good news is that battery technology and recycling abilitity are getting better over time. Battery degradation is better controlled, and battery packs are lasting longer.

It is envisioned that degraded battery packs will be able to be cost efficively recycled for raw materials, and many will be repurposed as home/commercial battery backups. When
no longer providing acceptable range, they will be totally sufficient as a home backup power supply.

Currently Tesla warranties their batteries for 8 years against excessive degradation or failure.

I do not worry about battery failures any more than I did for my ICE engines previously.
I'm not sure I would agree. Maybe things are harder and more expensive now for gas engines, but the first half of my life I was poor and was always content in knowing that I could repair my gas engine cars and have it be within my budget. I even rebuilt a couple of engines down to their core, using a machine shop to clean the block, replace all the block plugs, hone the cylinders, and through the parts catalog they could also provide new piston rings, cam parts, and other necessary parts so I could rebuild the engine.

You can't do anything remotely similar to that with EVs right now. Maybe you can't as easily do it with newer ICE vehicles either, I have to admit, I don't know for sure about that. But I'm concerned that less well to do people are really starting to get screwed over in the modern era, and EVs, while helping to solve emissions and pollution issues, are not helping out the little guys and gals right now.

Maybe I'm unique. I've mostly had to rely on myself, and spent a good part of my life close to broke. I'm well to do now, but I haven't forgotten about where I came from or what I had to do to survive a cruel world that likes to kick people when they are down.
 
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I am hoping that replacement battery costs come down in the future so that when my current battery is reduced in range to a point where it is no longer all that practical for longer trips, it would be a reasonable option to replace it. Ideally the old battery could still do service in a solar installation or the like. The battery of my Model 3 LR is still doing pretty well after almost 4 years, but I can see a point maybe in another 4 years or so where I might want to replace it with a new one if the rest of the car is in good shape. My understanding is that the chassis and other basic components of Tesla vehicles are made to last for many, many years - and mine has been pretty much flawless so far - so it would be nice to hang on to it, but with, eventually, a fresh battery.

So far battery replacement costs are, I believe, too high for the above option to be all that realistic, but that could change over time. Perhaps there will be reputable 3rd-party providers that will fill the gap, if Tesla does not. Certainly a market for replacement batteries would be out there given the sheer number of Model 3/Y vehicles now on the road for which owners eventually will want to contemplate the possibility of eventual battery replacements. Also, there has been some talk of improved battery chemistry that soon may be coming that could someday make this a non-issue, as improved, long-life batteries will hopefully last the life of future vehicles without the degree of degradation that would make replacement an issue in most circumstances.
 
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I am hoping that replacement battery costs come down in the future so that when my current battery is reduced in range to a point where it is no longer all that practical for longer trips, it would be a reasonable option to replace it. Ideally the old battery could still do service in a solar installation or the like. The battery of my Model 3 LR is still doing pretty well after almost 4 years, but I can see a point maybe in another 4 years or so where I might want to replace it with a new one if the rest of the car is in good shape. My understanding is that the chassis and other basic components of Tesla vehicles are made to last for many, many years - and mine has been pretty much flawless so far - so it would be nice to hang on to it, but with, eventually, a fresh battery.

So far battery replacement costs are, I believe, too high for the above option to be all that realistic, but that could change over time. Perhaps there will be reputable 3rd-party providers that will fill the gap, if Tesla does not. Certainly a market for replacement batteries would be out there given the sheer number of Model 3/Y vehicles now on the road for which owners eventually will want to contemplate the possibility of eventual battery replacements. Also, there has been some talk of improved battery chemistry that soon may be coming that could someday make this a non-issue, as improved, long-life batteries will hopefully last the life of future vehicles without the degree of degradation that would make replacement an issue in most circumstances.
At some point, Tesla may not provide replacement batteries for older cars, so replacements may rely on third party re-manufacturers. The cost may, or may not, be higher. But, beyond warranty replacements, Tesla is not obligated to supply replacement parts indefinitely. However, as far as using the car as the daily driver, ordinary battery degradation should not prevent the car from being serviceable. The issue is if (when?) the pack suffers a critical failure that requires replacement.

My feeling it that, once past the warranty, it's probably best to trade the car off while the battery is still functional. By that point, there will be newer features in the car anyway that makes a new one desirable.
 
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At some point, Tesla may not provide replacement batteries for older cars, so replacements may rely on third party re-manufacturers. The cost may, or may not, be higher. But, beyond warranty replacements, Tesla is not obligated to supply replacement parts indefinitely. However, as far as using the car as the daily driver, ordinary battery degradation should not prevent the car from being serviceable. The issue is if (when?) the pack suffers a critical failure that requires replacement.

My feeling it that, once past the warranty, it's probably best to trade the car off while the battery is still functional. By that point, there will be newer features in the car anyway that makes a new one desirable.
If I traded in after the warranty expired I would be buying a new car every 5 years, I need high mileage, I usually go 12-14 years before replacing my vehicles
 
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Maybe things are harder and more expensive now for gas engines, but the first half of my life I was poor and was always content in knowing that I could repair my gas engine cars and have it be within my budget. I even rebuilt a couple of engines down to their core, using a machine shop to clean the block, replace all the block plugs, hone the cylinders, and through the parts catalog they could also provide new piston rings, cam parts, and other necessary parts so I could rebuild the engine.
The best things were horses. You could just tie them up by the side of the road and they'd feed themselves. You didn't have to buy anything for them and they just kept going . . .

If you had a mare, it would even produce full replacements, maybe even spares to sell, if you left it in a pasture with a stallion for a while :)

Seriously though:
One can piece together new batteries from wrecked ones where a few sheets are bad but others are good. Just as ICE shade tree mechanics can scrounge through junkyards and pull old parts for very cheap, the same can be done with batteries if one has more time than $$$.

Maybe I'm unique. I've mostly had to rely on myself, and spent a good part of my life close to broke. I'm well to do now, but I haven't forgotten about where I came from or what I had to do to survive a cruel world that likes to kick people when they are down.
Don't forget, however, that, while you may be able to fix your ICE when you're down on cash, you do and always will have to pay someone for the fuel to be able to drive it. If you buy an EV and solar when you are able to scrape a few $$$ together, you'll be set for a long time.

Overall, though, I envision that the batteries on new EVs won't fail catastrophically, but will gradually lose max range until the original owner trades them in for a new battery with longer, more convenient range, possibly at the 10 - 15 year point. That old battery will still have good life in it for stationary storage, helping subsidize the original owner's new battery cost. Once that original battery is not really worth it for stationary storage, it can be sold as raw materials to a wholesale battery recycler (eg. Redwood Materials) who will pay reasonable money since it is semi-refined materials are cheaper than buying the raw materials from a mining company. The cycle repeats.

As you see, there are many viable, likely, economical options down the road for EVs. There just aren't very many of them yet to enable this secondary market to exist. Just because the same trick you used in the past to save money may no longer work, clever folks such as yourself, will undoubtedly find ways with EVs too.
 
If I traded in after the warranty expired I would be buying a new car every 5 years, I need high mileage, I usually go 12-14 years before replacing my vehicles
I had my first new Audi for 21 years.
Sold it when I got the first Tesla.
My second new Audi I had for 12 years, still have.

The savings from driving an EV compare ti a ICE car are so high (at least now) that its possible to count in a battery change if you have the car for long time.
And I guess there will be more companys fixing batteries. Mostly not the cells that go bad but other issues like the electronic boards and connections, so I guess its possible to make it cheaper in the future.
 
I expect that the inevitable battery capacity loss may convince you to replace your Tesla sooner than that. A road warrior may not like having to stop to charge more and more.
As long as I don’t lose more than 25% I’m fine until then

Is there some data that says it won’t last 13 years and 300k miles with 25% loss?
 
I had my first new Audi for 21 years.
Sold it when I got the first Tesla.
My second new Audi I had for 12 years, still have.

The savings from driving an EV compare ti a ICE car are so high (at least now) that its possible to count in a battery change if you have the car for long time.
And I guess there will be more companys fixing batteries. Mostly not the cells that go bad but other issues like the electronic boards and connections, so I guess its possible to make it cheaper in the future.
If I can get 300k miles and 13 years before I lose 25% capacity then I won’t need a battery change, I would get just a new vehicle at that point, unless you don’t think that’s possible

Like I’m not going to buy a 12-14k battery on a car that has 300k miles lol, the battery would cost more than the car is worth at that point
 
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