Tesla belatedly tries to make their connector a North American standard

[Earl]

A hotel we stayed at in Oxnard still has an AVCON charging station, next to their J1772 station. Lots of mentions of it on PlugShare.

Sorry to go off-topic with details:
Actually, the old AVCON at the Courtyard Marriot in Oxnard, CA was replaced with a J-1772 some time ago. The AVCON was an inductive connector. The nearly obsolete station that is still there is an old TAL-brand SPI (Small Paddle Inductive) charger. There are a few 1999 RAV4EVs still in the area that could theoretically use it. For the most part, it is just an archaic relic of history.
In the past, I used both that SPI (with my LPI adapter) for our EV1 and, later, used the AVCON with my AVCON to 14-50 adapter with our Roadster.

 

[israndy]

Yeah, if you don't think charging standards are being orphaned check out the federal legislation that is ramping billions of dollars in DC Fast Chargers. It specifically calls out this as the LAST year any of those dollars can go to CHAdeMO. Do you think all the Leafs in the world (and my wife's I-Miev) will not need to charge in public in 6 years (about how long chargers go w/o breaking down all the time).

EVs don't have maintenance issues and as long as we periodically drive them the batteries should stay in good health...

 

[henderrj]

I do wonder who will be next. I think Daimler is a very good chance, as they've done so much with Tesla in the past. And there's really no reason for them not to take it on. I would think any of the Japanese manufacturers would jump at the chance. None of them have very many EVS on the market yet, and they might as well make it easy to get in. Toyota anyone?

All of this means, that if more than three or four other manufacturers go in on tesla, everyone will have to. At least with an adapter. Tesla may have won this one after all! Apparently this was not a belated effort.

 

[wws]

I do wonder who will be next. I think Daimler is a very good chance, as they've done so much with Tesla in the past. And there's really no reason for them not to take it on. I would think any of the Japanese manufacturers would jump at the chance. None of them have very many EVS on the market yet, and they might as well make it easy to get in. Toyota anyone?

All of this means, that if more than three or four other manufacturers go in on tesla, everyone will have to. At least with an adapter. Tesla may have won this one after all! Apparently this was not a belated effort.

If I were running Hyundai/Kia/Genesis, I'd be knocking on Elons door ASAP.

 

[israndy]

Except their cars are now 800v, kinda suck on 400v Superchargers. This also limits Porsche and Lucid from switching to NACS anytime soon

 

[mspohr]

Ford’s Deal To Use Tesla Charging Connector And Superchargers Could Kill CCS

Ford Motor company has announced that starting next year, Fords will get access to Tesla’s supercharger network via an adapter, and later, new Fords will be made with ...

www.forbes.com

 

[MP3Mike]

Except their cars are now 800v, kinda suck on 400v Superchargers. This also limits Porsche and Lucid from switching to NACS anytime soon

It isn't so bad for Hyundai/Kia as they can still get 150kW. As can Porsche with the optional add-on. Lucid on the other hand limited themselves to 50kW, but they could certainly change that at the same time they went NACS if they wanted to.

 

[srs5694]

One thing this topic has made me wonder: with V3 supporting CCS, and many of us driving Tesla cars supporting CCS, I wonder if we’ve been (unbeknownst to us) using CCS protocol instead of CANbus at V3 chargers to help Tesla quietly beta & debug their CCS support.

That seems unlikely, at least as a universal. Teslas made before the fall of 2020 (IIRC; or maybe it was 2021?) don't support CCS at all, and so would not be able to use CCS at V3 stations, even if Tesla wanted to roll that out as a test for some cars and stations. I can't rule out the possibility that Tesla has implemented dual-protocol support, and in a way that favors CCS at some stations; but given that the Supercharger protocol is better-tested, and the CCS protocol is reportedly more complex and klunky, it seems unlikely to me that Tesla would be favoring the CCS protocol, except perhaps in a small test at a few stations.

 

[israndy]

I don't think we know anything about this, so it's ALL speculation. Yes we know CCS is supported in the EU at stations open to other cars, but do Teslas there use CCS for communications? Do non-Magic Dock Superchargers stateside support CCS? Is there a difference between Urban, V2, and V3 CCS support?

I don't think there is ANY information on these points outside of Tesla.

 

[GSP]

Except their cars are now 800v, kinda suck on 400v Superchargers. This also limits Porsche and Lucid from switching to NACS anytime soon

@MP3Mike helpfully points out that 150 kW is avilable on the Porsche. I would not buy one without that option. Lucid's 50 kW only support was a big mistake, IMO.

Also, I have been wondering how Tesla intends to support the Cybertruck. IIRC, Tesla execs have stated that it will use 800 V (or higher) power electronics. Will Tesla include a high power DC-DC like Porsche, Lucid, and Hyundai? I doubt that, since Tesla will want to support 250 kW or more, and they really avoid adding extra parts if there is a more cost effective solution. My guess? I expect that all of the V3 superchargers are actually capable of 1000 V (or more), despite nameplate ratings of 500 V. Tesla could issue an OTA software update to all the V3 superchargers, and instantly have a large network to support the Cybertruck.

I just can't imagine Tesla approaching this any other way.

GSP

 

[stopcrazypp]

That seems unlikely, at least as a universal. Teslas made before the fall of 2020 (IIRC; or maybe it was 2021?) don't support CCS at all, and so would not be able to use CCS at V3 stations, even if Tesla wanted to roll that out as a test for some cars and stations. I can't rule out the possibility that Tesla has implemented dual-protocol support, and in a way that favors CCS at some stations; but given that the Supercharger protocol is better-tested, and the CCS protocol is reportedly more complex and klunky, it seems unlikely to me that Tesla would be favoring the CCS protocol, except perhaps in a small test at a few stations.

FYI, the Model 3 supported CCS2 from factory in Europe since 2019 and launched a retrofit program in 2020 for Model S/Y.
CCS2 Retrofit For Older Tesla Model S/X In Europe Now Cheaper

So Tesla had CCS compatible cars a long while back.

Note the main difference is CAN vs PLC communication. It's also possible Tesla has a proprietary PLC communication too instead of CCS for the V3.

 

[VT_EE]

@MP3Mike helpfully points out that 150 kW is avilable on the Porsche. I would not buy one without that option. Lucid's 50 kW only support was a big mistake, IMO.

Also, I have been wondering how Tesla intends to support the Cybertruck. IIRC, Tesla execs have stated that it will use 800 V (or higher) power electronics. Will Tesla include a high power DC-DC like Porsche, Lucid, and Hyundai? I doubt that, since Tesla will want to support 250 kW or more, and they really avoid adding extra parts if there is a more cost effective solution. My guess? I expect that all of the V3 superchargers are actually capable of 1000 V (or more), despite nameplate ratings of 500 V. Tesla could issue an OTA software update to all the V3 superchargers, and instantly have a large network to support the Cybertruck.

I just can't imagine Tesla approaching this any other way.

GSP

I suspect you are correct. I would be shocked if V3 Superchargers can’t do 1000V with an update.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

@MP3Mike helpfully points out that 150 kW is avilable on the Porsche. I would not buy one without that option. Lucid's 50 kW only support was a big mistake, IMO.

Also, I have been wondering how Tesla intends to support the Cybertruck. IIRC, Tesla execs have stated that it will use 800 V (or higher) power electronics. Will Tesla include a high power DC-DC like Porsche, Lucid, and Hyundai? I doubt that, since Tesla will want to support 250 kW or more, and they really avoid adding extra parts if there is a more cost effective solution. My guess? I expect that all of the V3 superchargers are actually capable of 1000 V (or more), despite nameplate ratings of 500 V. Tesla could issue an OTA software update to all the V3 superchargers, and instantly have a large network to support the Cybertruck.

I just can't imagine Tesla approaching this any other way.

GSP

Hyundai/Kia uses the the motor-inverter to support 400V charging.

 

[mspohr]

FYI, the Model 3 supported CCS2 from factory in Europe since 2019 and launched a retrofit program in 2020 for Model S/Y.
CCS2 Retrofit For Older Tesla Model S/X In Europe Now Cheaper

So Tesla had CCS compatible cars a long while back.

Note the main difference is CAN vs PLC communication. It's also possible Tesla has a proprietary PLC communication too instead of CCS for the V3.

CCS1 and CCS2 are very different. CCS1 is a poorly designed kludge.

 

[stopcrazypp]

CCS1 and CCS2 are very different. CCS1 is a poorly designed kludge.

AFAIK CCS1 vs CCS2 are the same when operating in DC mode (they both use PLC). The difference is the connector for AC: J1772 vs Type 2. As it relates to Tesla's proprietary supercharger protocol, neither uses CAN.

 

[israndy]

Hyundai/Kia uses the the motor-inverter to support 400V charging.

It's very clever and uses almost no new parts. I wonder if it's smarter than using a pack split like the 800v GMs use. Certainly you get more current outta the split, but could have trouble keeping all the batts synced compared to a fixed pack.

 

[terranx]

I don't think we know anything about this, so it's ALL speculation. Yes we know CCS is supported in the EU at stations open to other cars, but do Teslas there use CCS for communications? Do non-Magic Dock Superchargers stateside support CCS? Is there a difference between Urban, V2, and V3 CCS support?

I don't think there is ANY information on these points outside of Tesla.

They do. In fact the model 3 / y over there can *only* use CCS.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes we know CCS is supported in the EU at stations open to other cars, but do Teslas there use CCS for communications?

Some may, but not all. Pre-May 2019, Model S/X aren't capable of PLC/CCS communications, but they can still use all of the Superchargers there. (They do require a physical adapter from CCS Type 2 to Tesla Type 2 to use V3 Superchargers.)

They do. In fact the model 3 / y over there can *only* use CCS.

They only have a CCS inlet, but they can still talk the Supercharger protocol, CAN, over it when hooked to an old V2 Supercharger.

 

[israndy]

And you get that information from where? Is there some printed statement about CCS and Teslas?

 

[MP3Mike]

I expect that all of the V3 superchargers are actually capable of 1000 V (or more), despite nameplate ratings of 500 V. Tesla could issue an OTA software update to all the V3 superchargers, and instantly have a large network to support the Cybertruck.

It is possible that the hardware is capable, but I don't think the wiring between the cabinets and stalls has insulation rated for 1000v, so an OTA software update likely isn't going to do it.

And even in Europe where they have a V3.5 Supercharger installation, V4 posts (rated to 1000v) hooked to V3 charger cabinets (rated to 500v), an 800v vehicle can still only charge up to ~450v. We will have to see what they do.