Tesla belatedly tries to make their connector a North American standard

[terranx]

They only have a CCS inlet, but they can still talk the Supercharger protocol, CAN, over it when hooked to an old V2 Supercharger.

This is not true. They only speak CCS. The charge ECU on Euro 3/Ys does not have the hardware to speak CAN, only PLC.

 

[MP3Mike]

And you get that information from where? Is there some printed statement about CCS and Teslas?

What information? That old Model S/Xs aren't capable of CCS? I think that is wide knowledge. That they can use V3 with an adapter? Yeah, Tesla had pages about that. (And they can be retrofitted with an additional ECU inline with the charge port so that they can talk CCS, but some people didn't care so they only bought the adapter so they could use V3 chargers.)

The page now only mentions the CCS Combo 2 upgrade, but that is probably because they dropped the price. (It used to be ~$250 for the adapter or ~$500 for the CCS retrofit, but at some point, if I recall correctly, they dropped the price of the retrofit to $250.)

Can all Tesla owners use the Supercharger network in Europe?

Yes, the Supercharger network is available to all Tesla owners.

All V3 Superchargers in Europe feature single-cable CCS technology that is compatible with every Model 3, Model Y and Model S or Model X from May 2019 onwards. To access V3 Supercharging with a pre-May 2019 Model S or Model X vehicle, please request a CCS Combo 2 Upgrade quote from your local Service Center.

All V2 Superchargers in Europe feature dual-cable posts to accommodate both DC Type 2 and CCS Combo 2 charge-ports.

It even has a little bit about V4:

What is V4 Supercharging?

We opened our first V4 Supercharger location in Harderwijk, the Netherlands in March 2023 and we will open more V4 sites in the second half of this year. All V4 Superchargers are equipped with a longer cable, providing easy access for all EVs. V4 currently supports peak rates of up to 250kW per car and is future-proofed to allow for updates and new features.

 

[srs5694]

FYI, the Model 3 supported CCS2 from factory in Europe since 2019 and launched a retrofit program in 2020 for Model S/Y.
CCS2 Retrofit For Older Tesla Model S/X In Europe Now Cheaper

So Tesla had CCS compatible cars a long while back.

Note the main difference is CAN vs PLC communication. It's also possible Tesla has a proprietary PLC communication too instead of CCS for the V3.

This is all true, and I was aware of it, but it's also irrelevant to the point I was making: That Tesla cannot be currently using the CCS protocol exclusively at any Superchargers in North America, as @TunaBug speculated (although it's not clear if @TunaBug meant "exclusively," or just some vehicles at some sites), since some Teslas don't support CCS. My own 2019 Model 3 is among those that is not CCS-enabled. What's happening in Europe isn't relevant to either my own point or @TunaBug's speculation.

 

[cdub]

People on the Rivian forums are having an argument and they're convinced that having a AC and DC on the same cables is a huge safety risk. I pointed out that if that was a problem we would've definitely heard about it as NACS is in use by millions of cars and has been on the road for 13 years. If they were smart Rivian should def switch over.

 

[mspohr]

People on the Rivian forums are having an argument and they're convinced that having a AC and DC on the same cables is a huge safety risk. I pointed out that if that was a problem we would've definitely heard about it as NACS is in use by millions of cars and has been on the road for 13 years. If they were smart Rivian should def switch over.

I've been following that thread on the Rivian forum and there are a few crazy people there who are adamant that the NACS is pure evil.
Reminds me of some of the crazy people we occasionally see here.
If you want to waste some time

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/ford-tesla-deal-access-to-superchargers-adapter-coming-future-evs-will-have-nacs-tesla-port.15525/unread?new=1

 

[israndy]

That was a waste of time. Most of the contributions were by the same guys saying the same things over and over. The Tesla fanboys didn't come off too well either, yelling "Do your homework" but not actually posting links with the data they were espousing. If someone ASKS you the facts you can say "google it" but if you are arguing that you have the facts you should offer to show them, otherwise you can be shouted down as it's just a shouting match at that point.

The most significant post kept coming up "Rivian is not a market leader they will have to follow the winner"

 

[terranx]

And if anyone is really curious, this PDF gives an overview of how to do the AC/DC sharing safely. It's not terribly complicated. I'm not registered on the Rivian forums, and I don't think I'd want to dive into that *sugar* slinging fest anyway

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/IPBML2_North_American_Charging_Standard_AC_DC_Pin_Sharing_Appendix_O3AG95.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22North-American-Charging-Standard-AC-DC-Pin-Sharing-Appendix.pdf%22

 

[MP3Mike]

I've been following that thread on the Rivian forum and there are a few crazy people there who are adamant that the NACS is pure evil.
Reminds me of some of the crazy people we occasionally see here.
If you want to waste some time

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/ford-tesla-deal-access-to-superchargers-adapter-coming-future-evs-will-have-nacs-tesla-port.15525/unread?new=1

A lot of misinformation over there, but I'm not going to create an account on that forum to correct them. But just like TMC there are some posters over there that are positive they are correct, when they aren't, and just keep hammering on it...

 

[stopcrazypp]

People on the Rivian forums are having an argument and they're convinced that having a AC and DC on the same cables is a huge safety risk. I pointed out that if that was a problem we would've definitely heard about it as NACS is in use by millions of cars and has been on the road for 13 years. If they were smart Rivian should def switch over.

You can throw this little tidbit in there: any DC plug standard will need to have a way to de-energize the pins anyways, how much harder is it to have a switch to switch the connection to AC instead?

I remember also Aptera had a video (might be with Munro) where they described the parts for CCS vs Tesla's standard. From memory, I believe they said Tesla's design was actually simpler.

 

[srs5694]

I remember also Aptera had a video (might be with Munro) where they described the parts for CCS vs Tesla's standard. From memory, I believe they said Tesla's design was actually simpler.

This is probably not the video you're thinking of, but it is a Munro video that compares NACS to CCS, and describes some of the ways that Tesla's implementation is simpler and less expensive than CCS:

That said, much of what they say has more to do with Tesla's implementation than with inherent strengths of NACS or weaknesses of CCS. For instance, they point out that matching the paint color on CCS port covers can be troublesome (and therefore costly), whereas Tesla's port cover is part of the rear light/reflector assembly. There's no law that says that Ford, Aptera, or whoever, must implement NACS in the same way, though; they might put the port in a part of the car that needs color-matching to the rest of the car's paint, as most CCS port covers do today. My takeaway is that the potential for cost savings exists in NACS vs. CCS, but whether that's realized depends on the implementation. Tesla seems to be pretty aggressive about minimizing costs (sometimes too much so, as in removing radar). We'll have to wait and see what Ford does with its own NACS implementation.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is probably not the video you're thinking of, but it is a Munro video that compares NACS to CCS, and describes some of the ways that Tesla's implementation is simpler and less expensive than CCS:

That said, much of what they say has more to do with Tesla's implementation than with inherent strengths of NACS or weaknesses of CCS. For instance, they point out that matching the paint color on CCS port covers can be troublesome (and therefore costly), whereas Tesla's port cover is part of the rear light/reflector assembly. There's no law that says that Ford, Aptera, or whoever, must implement NACS in the same way, though; they might put the port in a part of the car that needs color-matching to the rest of the car's paint, as most CCS port covers do today. My takeaway is that the potential for cost savings exists in NACS vs. CCS, but whether that's realized depends on the implementation. Tesla seems to be pretty aggressive about minimizing costs (sometimes too much so, as in removing radar). We'll have to wait and see what Ford does with its own NACS implementation.

The other aspect the video mentioned is that the Tesla design means there are only two conductors vs 4 (albeit the AC cables can be much thinner). You are right that it's theoretically possible to work around the CCS1 size and have same colored panels, but it's harder.

I think the video might be this one. The reasons put are very similar to the Ford one. The size of the Tesla connector allowed them to easily package it into the car. CCS1 meant they would have to design an access panel somewhere and they paused development as they didn't see a way to do that.

And it seemed fairly easy how they could add DC to the Tesla connector, just a busbar and a contactor.

As a side note, another thing I noted they mentioned was weather sealing. The Ford CCS1 example uses extensive weather sealing around the port cover. Tesla doesn't. I wonder if the difference has to do with the tapered shape of the inlet, were it might naturally resist intrusion of water and debris.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I've been following that thread on the Rivian forum and there are a few crazy people there who are adamant that the NACS is pure evil.
Reminds me of some of the crazy people we occasionally see here.
If you want to waste some time

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/ford-tesla-deal-access-to-superchargers-adapter-coming-future-evs-will-have-nacs-tesla-port.15525/unread?new=1

The general opposition view I got was a few posters repeatedly saying they want an open, non-proprietary charging standard, over which a single company does not have any controlling rights. CCS is that, NACS isn't that (yet).

 

[TunaBug]

This is all true, and I was aware of it, but it's also irrelevant to the point I was making: That Tesla cannot be currently using the CCS protocol exclusively at any Superchargers in North America, as @TunaBug speculated (although it's not clear if @TunaBug meant "exclusively," or just some vehicles at some sites), since some Teslas don't support CCS. My own 2019 Model 3 is among those that is not CCS-enabled. What's happening in Europe isn't relevant to either my own point or @TunaBug's speculation.

Actually, I was speculating that those of us with CCS enabled Teslas might be using CCS at Superchargers.

I don't think we know anything about this, so it's ALL speculation. Yes we know CCS is supported in the EU at stations open to other cars, but do Teslas there use CCS for communications? Do non-Magic Dock Superchargers stateside support CCS? Is there a difference between Urban, V2, and V3 CCS support?

I don't think there is ANY information on these points outside of Tesla.

Yes I agree it is all speculation. The physical connector is not the same thing as the wire protocol even though many assume they are the same. For example, NACS demonstrates this by marrying the formerly proprietary physical Tesla connector with the CCS wire protocol. Unless somebody has hung an analyzer on there while charging to demonstrate what actually happens, it's speculation.

 

[mongo]

The general opposition view I got was a few posters repeatedly saying they want an open, non-proprietary charging standard, over which a single company does not have any controlling rights. CCS is that, NACS isn't that (yet).

What rights as regards NACS is Tesla holding onto?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

What rights as regards NACS is Tesla holding onto?

Have they irrevocably opened it up and released any patents on it? They've been open-with-strings for a long time.

 

[MP3Mike]

The general opposition view I got was a few posters repeatedly saying they want an open, non-proprietary charging standard, over which a single company does not have any controlling rights. CCS is that, NACS isn't that (yet).

I think that is just something they are calling out as a "reasonable" excuse, when really they just don't want anything to do with Elon/Tesla.

The NACS specifications are freely available for anyone to use. What they say they are worried about is Elon/Tesla deciding to change the specs and break Rivians in the process. Which is true, since Tesla currently controls the specs they could. But if they change the physical format to break Rivian they would also break every current Tesla on the road. They could change the communication protocol, which Tesla could update on their fleet, but given the protocol is an open standard controlled by a standards body I doubt Tesla would do that.

And Tesla has said that they are working to get a standards body to be involved, which would remove their argument completely.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think that is just something they are calling out as a "reasonable" excuse, when really they just don't want anything to do with Elon/Tesla.

The NACS specifications are freely available for anyone to use. What they say they are worried about is Elon/Tesla deciding to change the specs and break Rivian's in the process. Which is true, since Tesla currently controls the specs they could. But if they change the physical format to break Rivian they would also break every current Tesla on the road. They could change the communication protocol, which Tesla could update on their fleet, but given the protocol is an open standard controlled by a standards body I doubt Tesla would do that.

And Tesla has said that they are working to get a standards body to be involved, which would remove their argument completely.

Well, we'll see when it's actually a standard. It shouldn't take long, since Tesla has the definition.

I'm looking forward to see what happens. It seems like Tesla said it before they were really ready. When we start seeing NACS cables on new NEVI chargers alongside CCS, then we'll know the strategy has been a complete success.

 

[mongo]

Have they irrevocably opened it up and released any patents on it? They've been open-with-strings for a long time.

Are you conflating NACS (the design/ specification of a connector) with Tesla's Superchargers?

In pursuit of our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy, today we are opening our EV connector design to the world. We invite charging network operators and vehicle manufacturers to put the Tesla charging connector and charge port, now called the North American Charging Standard (NACS), on their equipment and vehicles.

As a purely electrical and mechanical interface agnostic to use case and communication protocol, NACS is straightforward to adopt. The design and specification files are available for download, and we are actively working with relevant standards bodies to codify Tesla’s charging connector as a public standard. Enjoy.

Although, it does call out PLC:

4.5.1 For DC charging, communication between the EV and EVSE shall be power line communication over the control pilot line as depicted in DIN 70121

 

[mspohr]

Have they irrevocably opened it up and released any patents on it? They've been open-with-strings for a long time.

I'm not aware of any strings with their patents. AFAIK they have just said anyone can use them and they don't even need to notify Tesla.

 

[israndy]

One thing I haven't heard much talk about is non-Tesla Superchargers. Elon said that they would open the Tesla API for Ford so they could plug in and charge. But if Ford puts NACS chargers at a dealership are they Tesla Superchargers? Will they talk to Teslas via the CANbus standard for Plug&Charge? If not then Teslas that are NOT CCS ready will not be able to change from them. Would be interesting if letting the standard go free ends up causing Tesla owners more confusion.

Would be nice to see ChargePoint come to the table with their version of NACS charger. They would certainly NOT support Tesla's CANbus protocol if all they were doing was putting NACS connectors on a CCS charger, so how would P&C work on those chargers for a Tesla? Is there just one CCS standard for P&C? Seems like I can plug in thru a CCS adapter at EVgo after registering my car with them and it will start charging w/o using a card or a phone app. Not true at ChargePoint or EA, so there must be more than one standard for automatic billing at CCS stations...