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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

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Funny enough the P85D can only sustain 155mph for a short time while the S85D can do it for a much longer time.

Have you tested this? I have test driven the 85D at it also get the red numbers after 235 kph and is not able to hold 250 kph very long. I think the contactor is the weak link so the P85D and P90D with Ludicrous should be able to hold a higher speed for longer.
Just the front engine hp alone should be enough to hold 250 kph.
 
Have you tested this? I have test driven the 85D at it also get the red numbers after 235 kph and is not able to hold 250 kph very long. I think the contactor is the weak link so the P85D and P90D with Ludicrous should be able to hold a higher speed for longer.
Just the front engine hp alone should be enough to hold 250 kph.

Would be a quite interesting test indeed. By doing this we can determine if the fuse and/or contactors are part of the overheat "issue". My guess is that it is the other way round. The motor(s) and battery probably get overheated faster when more power is allowed to flow.

By the way, I have not been able to get mine to 250 km/h. It stays fluctuating between 248 and 249 at max speed. Not that it is important. :rolleyes:
 
Would be a quite interesting test indeed. By doing this we can determine if the fuse and/or contactors are part of the overheat "issue". My guess is that it is the other way round. The motor(s) and battery probably get overheated faster when more power is allowed to flow.

By the way, I have not been able to get mine to 250 km/h. It stays fluctuating between 248 and 249 at max speed. Not that it is important. :rolleyes:

I got 249 while on the dyno, so I think that is what it has to offer :)
 
The fact that it is limited to the same speed on the road and on the dyno indicates that this limit is not due to power (heat) limitation, but due to rpm (mechanical) limit. There is no air resistance to overcome during the dyno test. The above conclusion is based on assumption that Jpet tested max speed on the road.
 
I'm glad the real power that the P85D can produce when using the 85KWh battery is finally published. To those who claim the car doesn't perform any different, you are correct, it still under-performs at higher speeds as compared to expectations from a 691hp car. When I bought mine in April 2015, I noticed that the start kick was great but at higher speeds the car wasn't performing as I would expect (ok I was spoiled, my previous car was a model S as well - P85D was faster, but not as fast as I would expect with almost 2x the hp which I was told P85D had compared to my S60). I also pointed out to the sales person that the KW power meter on the instrument cluster didn't show enough power being drawn to deliver the advertised 691hp, and in response I was directed to the note in the design studio that a free OTA to improve P85D performance at high speed it coming to fully deliver the advertised power. Now that Tesla got my money, they finally come clean (ok kind of, in fine print) and it turns out that there were 2 deceptive tactics used to get my extra $20K:
1. The stated HP is not achievable, not even close (I would need an almost 50% boost over what got delivered to get to the 691hp). This made P85D look almost twice as powerful (376 to 691hp) as the 85D.
2. The 0-60 numbers were played with, P85D was using a time from which a 1ft rollout (~0.4s?) was subtracted, while the other number were not. Why not present all numbers with roll-out or all without? The only reason I can think of is to make the $20K update look more worth it.

So I bought my second MS and paid the extra $20K, giving Tesla the benefit of doubt that they will deliver the advertised power with an OTA. Then 85D upgrade happened which actually surpassed the originally advertised hp (376hp was advertised, with today's numbers the battery limited number is 417h). I thought they just needed some more time to get my P85D to the 691hp they sold me. Then Ludicrous upgrade was announced, ok, that pretty much put the final nail in the hope to get the 691hp OTA - there is no way the 85KWh battery can deliver the necessary power without the new fuse. Ok, I'm not happy at this point that it will cost extra money, but still wanting to support Tesla I put down the deposit on the Ludicrous upgrade. Then Tesla goes and changes the description that the upgrade will not after all deliver the same level of power as P90DL, but instead only a 0.2s improvement in 0-116mph and at peak 10% (so 46hp) extra power (resulting in a grand total of 509hp). Now I'm thinking, where are those guys who I thought were overreacting and wanting to sue Tesla for the $20K or a free Ludicrous upgrade? Personally I think Tesla should offer a free 90KWhr battery and Ludicrous update (which I think it's just software once you have the 90KWh battery), but lock down the available range to 85KWh. Maybe upsell unlocking the 5KWh for $3K-$4K, I would probably pay that.

This is not all about money. I'm not rich but this is not going to break me. It's about the fact that Tesla tricked me to give them the extra $20K for something they cannot deliver. To be 100% honest, if I was buying today, I would buy the 85D with the exact same options and save $20K (maybe add some solar panels on my roof and add some Tesla power walls) - 85D is only 46hp less and only about 0.7s slower 0-60mph, and it has greater efficiency and range. I drove an 85D for a day recently too. This is not buyer's remorse about buying something too expensive. This is also not a complaint that 85D got faster, I don't care if 85D's suddenly could get 1000hp and go 0-60 in 2.0s flat (heck, I might pay to "downgrade" if that happened). This is about Tesla selling me something that the sales people said they would deliver, their web page being deliberately deceiving to support it (e.g. mixing numbers with rollout and without and not stating that), and then never delivering on the advertised specs. Do I think they intended to deceive from the get-go, I don't know, I hope not - I hope they honestly thought they could deliver 691hp like they delivered (exceeded actually) the advertised 85D hp number, but then realized the hardware was not capable. This is why I was willing to give them another $5K to fix it, but now it looks like they simply cannot deliver on the original spec. And you know what the worse part is, I like Tesla products, their service is above an beyond any other car I've owned, including Porsche and Lexus, but this experience leaves me distrustful to anything they say they can deliver. It used to be only the dates had to be taken with a grain of salt in Tesla announcements, now even what they say they can deliver has to be questioned. A fiend asked whether not is a good time to put a deposit down for a Model X, I found myself saying "I would wait until you can test drive it and see whether the sales person will allow you to hook up your 6000lb boat to see if it can tow it and if so how far - I wouldn't buy the car without testing it". My friend pointed out that just a few months ago I was sure that "Model X will tow your boat no problem". Sad, things change...
 
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Disagree.
Although likely technically accurate, you miss the basic point. If you are telling me the (one) new motor allows you to pull more power from the battery below the power limit of the battery then, yes, I will agree that it is combined motor power that allows the change in performance. To confuse that with the fact that pulling more power from the battery combined with using four wheels (or two motors) instead of two (or one motor) is the ultimate reason for the car's increased performance is just plain wrong. Granted, the approach does put more emphasis on the combined motor power being controlling but it does so by completely neglecting the added two wheels being driven and the extra battery power being consumed.

A GTR has less horsepower than a 12C yet they are almost an identical match in the 1/4.

It is the area under the power curve that yields results. In Tesla's case, the extra driven wheels allows for a bulk in the increase while the extra current capability of the motors is a smaller but important factor.

None of this argument address describing a product in such a way as to invoke an image in the customers minds all the while LIKELY knowing you were pulling their leg a bit. I give Tesla a lot of credit. They had a technical pin to hang their "combined motor hp" hat on and they knew they were playing fast and loose with telling people the car had 691 ___ hp.

Thank you for taking time to read through the post explaining basics of the power/torque characteristics of the Tesla drivetrain. Understanding these basics is an absolute must before anybody can attempt the comparison based on hp rating across drivetrains with vastly different technologies (EV vs. ICE). I have explained in detail why hp per lb of car weight is a legitimate metric to use for comparison between the ICE cars, but does not work in comparison between an EV and ICE car here.

According to the Second Newton's Law, for a given object (mass) the acceleration at any speed is defined by Force (linear motion)/ Torque (rotational motion). As can be seen from the explanation of the EV curves, which are addressed in detail here, the torque curve for an EV is not uniquely identified by the max hp rating. There is a trade-off between the low and high speed acceleration. As explained in the post referenced above, acceleration within the constant torque region of the curves is defined by the angle the power curve forms with the rpm(speed) axis, i.e. by torque rating of the motor. The steeper the curve, the faster the acceleration from the stand still. The problem, however, is that the steeper the slope of the power curve (i.e. the higher the motor torque rating), the lower the rpm coordinate of the inflection point between the constant torque and constant power portions of the curves. Since the torque produced by the motor declines proportionately to rpm (speed) in the constant horsepower region of the curves (note, there is no transmission to augment this), the lower rpm coordinate of the inflection point leads to lower torque at a given rpm past the inflection point (constant horsepower portion of the curves). Simply put, based on the above, for an EV drivetrain similar to Tesla's, a design with a higher (rated) torque, i.e. torque in the constant torque region of the curve, inevitably leads to the lower torque at a given (high) rpm (speed) beyond the inflection point, on the constant power portion of the curve.

The result of the above is that comparison that technically minded unhappy owners attempted to use to arrive at their conclusion about the high speed acceleration capabilities of P85D as compared with a hypothetical ICE car was not valid. Another problem, of course, that Tesla did not market P85D using the high speed acceleration capabilities to begin with.

So here you have it, the reason for the confusion is not entirely Tesla's fault, the fault lies with the new technology which is not analogous to the old one, with the resulting confusion at any attempt for drawing any expectations based on comparison across the differing technologies.

As for what Tesla should've done, any of the proposed solutions end up with it's own hefty baggage of deficiencies. As you can see from this and other horsepower related threads, it is very difficult to communicate technical concepts required to understand the issue to a wider audience, that might not necessary have technical background, especially when it is required to do not in an engineering classroom setting, but in a one page of a Web Site/marketing materials.
 
I'm glad the real power that the P85D can produce when using the 85KWh battery is finally published. To those who claim the car doesn't perform any different, you are correct, it still under-performs at higher speeds as compared to expectations from a 691hp car. When I bought mine in April 2015, I noticed that the start kick was great but at higher speeds the car wasn't performing as I would expect (ok I was spoiled, my previous car was a model S as well - P85D was faster, but not as fast as I would expect with almost 2x the hp which I was told P85D had compared to my S60). I also pointed out to the sales person that the KW power meter on the instrument cluster didn't show enough power being drawn to deliver the advertised 691hp, and in response I was directed to the note in the design studio that a free OTA to improve P85D performance at high speed it coming to fully deliver the advertised power. Now that Tesla got my money, they finally come clean (ok kind of, in fine print) and it turns out that there were 2 deceptive tactics used to get my extra $20K:
1. The stated HP is not achievable, not even close (I would need an almost 50% boost over what got delivered to get to the 691hp). This made P85D look almost twice as powerful (376 to 691hp) as the 85D.
2. The 0-60 numbers were played with, P85D was using a time from which a 1ft rollout (~0.4s?) was subtracted, while the other number were not. Why not present all numbers with roll-out or all without? The only reason I can think of is to make the $20K update look more worth it.

So I bought my second MS and paid the extra $20K, giving Tesla the benefit of doubt that they will deliver the advertised power with an OTA. Then 85D upgrade happened which actually surpassed the originally advertised hp (376hp was advertised, with today's numbers the battery limited number is 417h). I thought they just needed some more time to get my P85D to the 691hp they sold me. Then Ludicrous upgrade was announced, ok, that pretty much put the final nail in the hope to get the 691hp OTA - there is no way the 85KWh battery can deliver the necessary power without the new fuse. Ok, I'm not happy at this point that it will cost extra money, but still wanting to support Tesla I put down the deposit on the Ludicrous upgrade. Then Tesla goes and changes the description that the upgrade will not after all deliver the same level of power as P90DL, but instead only a 0.2s improvement in 0-116mph and at peak 10% (so 46hp) extra power (resulting in a grand total of 509hp). Now I'm thinking, where are those guys who I thought were overreacting and wanting to sue Tesla for the $20K or a free Ludicrous upgrade? Personally I think Tesla should offer a free 90KWhr battery and Ludicrous update (which I think it's just software once you have the 90KWh battery), but lock down the available range to 85KWh. Maybe upsell unlocking the 5KWh for $3K-$4K, I would probably pay that.

This is not all about money. I'm not rich but this is not going to break me. It's about the fact that Tesla tricked me to give them the extra $20K for something they cannot deliver. To be 100% honest, if I was buying today, I would buy the 85D with the exact same options and save $20K (maybe add some solar panels on my roof and add some Tesla power walls) - 85D is only 46hp less and only about 0.7s slower 0-60mph, and it has greater efficiency and range. I drove an 85D for a day recently too. This is not buyer's remorse about buying something too expensive. This is also not a complaint that 85D got faster, I don't care if 85D's suddenly could get 1000hp and go 0-60 in 2.0s flat (heck, I might pay to "downgrade" if that happened). This is about Tesla selling me something that the sales people said they would deliver, their web page being deliberately deceiving to support it (e.g. mixing numbers with rollout and without and not stating that), and then never delivering on the advertised specs. Do I think they intended to deceive from the get-go, I don't know, I hope not - I hope they honestly thought they could deliver 691hp like they delivered (exceeded actually) the advertised 85D hp number, but then realized the hardware was not capable. This is why I was willing to give them another $5K to fix it, but now it looks like they simply cannot deliver on the original spec. And you know what the worse part is, I like Tesla products, their service is above an beyond any other car I've owned, including Porsche and Lexus, but this experience leaves me distrustful to anything they say they can deliver. It used to be only the dates had to be taken with a grain of salt in Tesla announcements, now even what they say they can deliver has to be questioned. A fiend asked whether not is a good time to put a deposit down for a Model X, I found myself saying "I would wait until you can test drive it and see whether the sales person will allow you to hook up your 6000lb boat to see if it can tow it and if so how far - I wouldn't buy the car without testing it". My friend pointed out that just a few months ago I was sure that "Model X will tow your boat no problem". Sad, things change...

+691 ...... This describes my experience and reaction perfectly. Thanks for writing it up more clearly than I could have.
 
"Worth it" is very subjective. If we're going to make a comparison to non-Tesla cars, 20k is like the difference between a 335i and an M3. Another way to look at it is that for the price of an M3 you can get two base 3-series. The same roughly holds true for Tesla. Maxed out performance model is roughly the price of two 70's. Is it worth it? Subjective.
 
I'm glad the real power that the P85D can produce when using the 85KWh battery is finally published. To those who claim the car doesn't perform any different, you are correct, it still under-performs at higher speeds as compared to expectations from a 691hp car. When I bought mine in April 2015, I noticed that the start kick was great but at higher speeds the car wasn't performing as I would expect (ok I was spoiled, my previous car was a model S as well - P85D was faster, but not as fast as I would expect with almost 2x the hp which I was told P85D had compared to my S60). I also pointed out to the sales person that the KW power meter on the instrument cluster didn't show enough power being drawn to deliver the advertised 691hp, and in response I was directed to the note in the design studio that a free OTA to improve P85D performance at high speed it coming to fully deliver the advertised power. Now that Tesla got my money, they finally come clean (ok kind of, in fine print) and it turns out that there were 2 deceptive tactics used to get my extra $20K:
1. The stated HP is not achievable, not even close (I would need an almost 50% boost over what got delivered to get to the 691hp). This made P85D look almost twice as powerful (376 to 691hp) as the 85D.
2. The 0-60 numbers were played with, P85D was using a time from which a 1ft rollout (~0.4s?) was subtracted, while the other number were not. Why not present all numbers with roll-out or all without? The only reason I can think of is to make the $20K update look more worth it.

So I bought my second MS and paid the extra $20K, giving Tesla the benefit of doubt that they will deliver the advertised power with an OTA. Then 85D upgrade happened which actually surpassed the originally advertised hp (376hp was advertised, with today's numbers the battery limited number is 417h). I thought they just needed some more time to get my P85D to the 691hp they sold me. Then Ludicrous upgrade was announced, ok, that pretty much put the final nail in the hope to get the 691hp OTA - there is no way the 85KWh battery can deliver the necessary power without the new fuse. Ok, I'm not happy at this point that it will cost extra money, but still wanting to support Tesla I put down the deposit on the Ludicrous upgrade. Then Tesla goes and changes the description that the upgrade will not after all deliver the same level of power as P90DL, but instead only a 0.2s improvement in 0-116mph and at peak 10% (so 46hp) extra power (resulting in a grand total of 509hp). Now I'm thinking, where are those guys who I thought were overreacting and wanting to sue Tesla for the $20K or a free Ludicrous upgrade? Personally I think Tesla should offer a free 90KWhr battery and Ludicrous update (which I think it's just software once you have the 90KWh battery), but lock down the available range to 85KWh. Maybe upsell unlocking the 5KWh for $3K-$4K, I would probably pay that.

This is not all about money. I'm not rich but this is not going to break me. It's about the fact that Tesla tricked me to give them the extra $20K for something they cannot deliver. To be 100% honest, if I was buying today, I would buy the 85D with the exact same options and save $20K (maybe add some solar panels on my roof and add some Tesla power walls) - 85D is only 46hp less and only about 0.7s slower 0-60mph, and it has greater efficiency and range. I drove an 85D for a day recently too. This is not buyer's remorse about buying something too expensive. This is also not a complaint that 85D got faster, I don't care if 85D's suddenly could get 1000hp and go 0-60 in 2.0s flat (heck, I might pay to "downgrade" if that happened). This is about Tesla selling me something that the sales people said they would deliver, their web page being deliberately deceiving to support it (e.g. mixing numbers with rollout and without and not stating that), and then never delivering on the advertised specs. Do I think they intended to deceive from the get-go, I don't know, I hope not - I hope they honestly thought they could deliver 691hp like they delivered (exceeded actually) the advertised 85D hp number, but then realized the hardware was not capable. This is why I was willing to give them another $5K to fix it, but now it looks like they simply cannot deliver on the original spec. And you know what the worse part is, I like Tesla products, their service is above an beyond any other car I've owned, including Porsche and Lexus, but this experience leaves me distrustful to anything they say they can deliver. It used to be only the dates had to be taken with a grain of salt in Tesla announcements, now even what they say they can deliver has to be questioned. A fiend asked whether not is a good time to put a deposit down for a Model X, I found myself saying "I would wait until you can test drive it and see whether the sales person will allow you to hook up your 6000lb boat to see if it can tow it and if so how far - I wouldn't buy the car without testing it". My friend pointed out that just a few months ago I was sure that "Model X will tow your boat no problem". Sad, things change...

What you're saying makes sense to me.
It's painful to feel disappointed by a party you really want to succeed. Cognitive dissonance is challenging to manage - I have a hard time with it myself.
 
"Worth it" is very subjective. If we're going to make a comparison to non-Tesla cars, 20k is like the difference between a 335i and an M3. Another way to look at it is that for the price of an M3 you can get two base 3-series. The same roughly holds true for Tesla. Maxed out performance model is roughly the price of two 70's. Is it worth it? Subjective.
Not really as there are more differences between a 335i and an m3

A better analogy would be between a 330i and a 335i - pretty much exactly the same car just a slightly different engine and about 50bhp.
 
Not really as there are more differences between a 335i and an m3

A better analogy would be between a 330i and a 335i - pretty much exactly the same car just a slightly different engine and about 50bhp.

You're overestimating the M3 and underestimating the 335i. The 0-60 difference is approximately 0.5 whether you're using this generation or the last, where the last generation was on the lower side, and that's comparing to a much higher absolute value than P85D vs 85D. Also horsepower was roughly 340 vs 414 for the last gen, so only 74HP, almost none of which was usable daily as you have to rev 6000-8400RPM to get it.

The analogy holds pretty well. We can use other cars as well, but I know this one off the top of my head.

You can argue about the real horsepower numbers for the P85D all day long but the pricing argument doesn't hold up. No product manufacturer's top model (cars, or anything) is ever "a good deal".
 
Not really as there are more differences between a 335i and an m3

A better analogy would be between a 330i and a 335i - pretty much exactly the same car just a slightly different engine and about 50bhp.

No, he has the right analogy, just the wrong class of cars. Lets look at the MB S Class (which is what Tesla keeps saying in their chief target competition)

S550 Sedan: 95,650 base | 0-60 in 4.8 | 449HP | 516lb-ft
AMG S63 Sedan: 143,250 base | 0-60 in 3.9 | 577HP | 664lb-ft

So in the span of around 50k you cut off ~1 second, and gain ~100HP and ~150 Torque
So comparing the Tesla:
70D: 75k Base | 0-60 in 5.2 | 328HP* | 387lb-ft
85D: 85k Base | 0-60 in 4.2 | 417HP* | 485lb-ft
P85D: 105k Base | 0-60 in 3.5** | 463HP* | 713lb-ft
P85D: 118k Base | 0-60 in 3.1** | 532HP* | 713lb-ft

*Battery limited maximum motor shaft power
**Times without using the rollout

So lets see here, for 10k you drop a whole second off the time, and gain ~100HP and ~100 Torque.
For 30k you drop 1.5 seconds, gain ~150HP and ~350 Torque
For ~40k you drop 2 seconds, gain ~200HP and ~350 Torque

You got better value in your upgrade even just with the P85D (not ludicrous) than what a Mercedes owner has to fork out AND you got it for cheaper overall. So, worth it? I don't know, how well does the AMG sell over the S550, and do people complain that they paid 50k and it isn't "worth it"?
 
Personally I think Tesla should offer a free 90KWhr battery and Ludicrous update (which I think it's just software once you have the 90KWh battery)

This is now the second time I have seen someone post this speculation and yet noone has dived into *why* they think this to be the case. There are physical materials that are being added to the car to enable this which includes inconel connectors and an added fuse which is battery powered and controlled. I don't know what the technical cost of doing this is, maybe it isn't much... but why would you put it on all 90kWh batteries to include cars like mine new one coming in that is just a regular 90D or those who order a RWD 90? This seems like a horrible waste of money since these cars would be completely incapable of ever drawing out that power from the pack due to other parts missing... namely, the more powerful performance drive unit.

If you have any further details on why it makes sense to add this in and "eat the cost", I am all ears.

Tesla put supercharging into all batteries because:
1: the number of people they thought who wouldn't opt for it was considerably small (and turned out to be the case) as 60s were already a small fraction of the population
2: it ensured that on the second hand market other owners could add this feature if they wanted. Or owners with buyers remorse could add this. As being geolocked is a big "disadvantage" of electric vehicles this just made sense all around to add it.

Tesla put full sensors on all cars because:
1: Safety. First and foremost this is what they care about, you cannot get the forward collision, side collision and blind spot detection without ALL of the sensors.
2: maybe a little bit of buyer's remorse mitigation? But I am still leaning heavily toward number 1 as the only real reason to eat that cost. And most likely people are going to find a way to pay out the extra 2,500 after already spending 70k+ on a car.

Where is this underlying benefit to the company... other than maybe buyers remorse/second hand market neither of which really are going to impact their mission of getting EVs to everyone. Safety and Range Anxiety are always concerns... going faster??? And again, it does nothing on the non-performance cars which are a larger segment of the population than the performance counterparts.
 
Disagree.
Although likely technically accurate, you miss the basic point. If you are telling me the (one) new motor allows you to pull more power from the battery below the power limit of the battery then, yes, I will agree that it is combined motor power that allows the change in performance. To confuse that with the fact that pulling more power from the battery combined with using four wheels (or two motors) instead of two (or one motor) is the ultimate reason for the car's increased performance is just plain wrong. Granted, the approach does put more emphasis on the combined motor power being controlling but it does so by completely neglecting the added two wheels being driven and the extra battery power being consumed.

A GTR has less horsepower than a 12C yet they are almost an identical match in the 1/4.

It is the area under the power curve that yields results. In Tesla's case, the extra driven wheels allows for a bulk in the increase while the extra current capability of the motors is a smaller but important factor.

None of this argument address describing a product in such a way as to invoke an image in the customers minds all the while LIKELY knowing you were pulling their leg a bit. I give Tesla a lot of credit. They had a technical pin to hang their "combined motor hp" hat on and they knew they were playing fast and loose with telling people the car had 691 ___ hp.
Depends on what you are using as the comparison. If P85+, it is true that AWD plays a role, but if talking about the 85D, then the rear drive unit difference plays the biggest role (only difference between P85D and 85D is rear drive unit, battery pack is the same rev E).
 
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This is now the second time I have seen someone post this speculation and yet noone has dived into *why* they think this to be the case. There are physical materials that are being added to the car to enable this which includes inconel connectors and an added fuse which is battery powered and controlled. I don't know what the technical cost of doing this is, maybe it isn't much... but why would you put it on all 90kWh batteries to include cars like mine new one coming in that is just a regular 90D or those who order a RWD 90? This seems like a horrible waste of money since these cars would be completely incapable of ever drawing out that power from the pack due to other parts missing... namely, the more powerful performance drive unit.

If you have any further details on why it makes sense to add this in and "eat the cost", I am all ears.

As of right now, Tesla is shipping all 90 packs with the updgraded fuses and contactors, as per this thread:

P90D Insane Questions

That's no guarantee that this will always be the case, but that is what is going on now.

Conjecture is that it is simpler for Tesla to manufacture the packs with one kind of fuse and contactor than with two different types, and that the incremental cost of the better fuses and contactors is not that significant.