Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[redox]

"Worth it" is very subjective. If we're going to make a comparison to non-Tesla cars, 20k is like the difference between a 335i and an M3. Another way to look at it is that for the price of an M3 you can get two base 3-series. The same roughly holds true for Tesla. Maxed out performance model is roughly the price of two 70's. Is it worth it? Subjective.

Not sure about others, but comparing with another car is irrelevant to me: I wasn't hesitating between a Tesla and a BMW or any other car. I knew I wanted a Model S: what would have mattered to me is the value of the different options/upgrades in the Model S product line.
I don't know if I would have done things differently, had I known what I know now, but I can't deny that my perceived value has decreased significantly in light of the revelations made since my P85D purchase.

 

[JonG]

We could have lots of fun - there's nothing different between the cars other than the motors and unlike the examples you are all quoting but let's dwell on the maths
X is small motor
Y is big motor
the difference between an 85D and an 85 is 2 less small, add a large and get 5k back (uk figure)
thats 2X = Y +5

the difference between an 85D and a P85D is one less small one extra large +20k
Y = X +20

therefore
2X = (X +20) + 5
X = 25
therefore Y = 45
therefore a P85D has 70k in nothing but motors. That's not true by any stretch so the uplift is way disproportionate to the cost.

this whole thread is a pointless load of rubbish by people who refuse to compare apples with apples and countered by easy logical rebuttals.

An M3 is made in a different factory, has a different body, a different suspension, a limited slip differential, different seats and extra leather... And more..

The bigger merc has about 20k of options as standard over the lower car

The Audi RS7 is made in a different factory to the S7 by differently skilled mechanics

Tesla bolt a different motor in the back. That's it.

 

[chickensevil]

As of right now, Tesla is shipping all 90 packs with the updgraded fuses and contactors, as per this thread:

P90D Insane Questions

That's no guarantee that this will always be the case, but that is what is going on now.

Conjecture is that it is simpler for Tesla to manufacture the packs with one kind of fuse and contactor than with two different types, and that the incremental cost of the better fuses and contactors is not that significant.

Thanks, I'll take the discussion there. This was what I was looking for and just couldn't seem to find it. I knew it didn't come from nothing

 

[jpet]

Tesla bolt a different motor in the back. That's it.

Jon, we also received red brake calipers!

 

[gsxdsm]

We could have lots of fun - there's nothing different between the cars other than the motors
---
Tesla bolt a different motor in the back. That's it.

If it's so easy, then why don't you get an 85D and just swap the back motor.

The other thing people forget that is baked into the cost ("why is JUST a motor $20k??") is the warranty reserve needed - I can guarantee you that P model motors, fuses, and batteries will need warranty replacement sooner/more often than non P models. Part of the cost you're paying is supporting your future warranty replacements. The entire notion of the P line is that you are pushing the car at its limits and will put stress on motors, battery, fuses, and other components. That future cost is factored into the price.

 

[lolachampcar]

This is a no problem problem....
People will vote with their wallets and, if they feel the dinky change in motor is not sufficient to warrant the uncharge, they will not buy it and the option will go away. Anyone want to bet Tesla has no problem selling all those worthless P90Ds or, for that matter, all those even more worthless DLs that do not even get the benefit of a motor change?

 

[chickensevil]

We could have lots of fun - there's nothing different between the cars other than the motors and unlike the examples you are all quoting but let's dwell on the maths
X is small motor
Y is big motor
the difference between an 85D and an 85 is 2 less small, add a large and get 5k back (uk figure)
thats 2X = Y +5

the difference between an 85D and a P85D is one less small one extra large +20k
Y = X +20

therefore
2X = (X +20) + 5
X = 25
therefore Y = 45
therefore a P85D has 70k in nothing but motors. That's not true by any stretch so the uplift is way disproportionate to the cost.

this whole thread is a pointless load of rubbish by people who refuse to compare apples with apples and countered by easy logical rebuttals.

An M3 is made in a different factory, has a different body, a different suspension, a limited slip differential, different seats and extra leather... And more..

The bigger merc has about 20k of options as standard over the lower car

The Audi RS7 is made in a different factory to the S7 by differently skilled mechanics

Tesla bolt a different motor in the back. That's it.

Oh you mean 20k of options that isn't necessary to achieve the performance jump you are talking about? Ok, cool. So we are still talking about a 30k price jump to go from 4.8 to 3.9 and add on ~100HP and ~150 Torque.

On the Model S you are paying 30k to drop ~1.5 seconds and gain ~150HP and ~350 Torque

Still, a better deal... and cheaper car overall.

And those must be some "expensive" options...
Differences between the two mercedes (that I can tell other than performance related changes)
20" wheels instead of 18" (you could argue if you need those for performance or not... I'll judge fairly against Tesla and say, not) which including the "sport" package (again I'll argue that in the favor of MB again, that this isn't "necessary") comes to 6650$
The "Premium Package" is another 4,500 which looks to be standard in the AMG

Best I can tell, that is actually it... Even if the spoiler is included (which from the pictures I see no spoiler) that is only another 500$.

So you are effectively paying 11,650 in forced options on the AMG. So, where is the other 10k? Not that it matters, because as I show above, the price difference doesn't matter anyway.

From the P85 days, assuming you are still getting the same/similar parts, what you were paying 20k for in the past to go from the 85 to P85 was not just a changed motor, but also a changed inverter, both of which had to be beefed up to support the higher power draw off the pack. I am going to guess this is still the case since the normal 85 has a "382 HP and 325lb-ft" motor in it, and the Rear Performance motor is "503HP" and likely 470.5 ft-lb (485 ft-lb for 85D / 2 and subtract that value from 713) because they all share the same front motor. What is the cost of this beefier motor and inverter? Well according to Tesla it is worth 20k to them.

So you complaining that they just "bolt a different motor in the back" is like saying, well all Mercedes does is just bolt in a new engine/transmission up front, "that's it". The only difference between a lambo and a honda is that engine/transmission, "that's it".

 

[JonG]

You do realise that when they ship to Europe they take the motors out and pop them back in again when they're here? I'd be surprised if they didn't fit really easily. I recon the upgrade is easier than the ludicrous one.

 

[vgrinshpun]

You do realise that when they ship to Europe they take the motors out and pop them back in again when they're here? I'd be surprised if they didn't fit really easily. I recon the upgrade is easier than the ludicrous one.

Not motors - drive units - if you want to be bothered with details...

 

[gsxdsm]

You do realise that when they ship to Europe they take the motors out and pop them back in again when they're here? I'd be surprised if they didn't fit really easily. I recon the upgrade is easier than the ludicrous one.

Now Tesla is penalized for having an elegant and simple design. Would the 20k be more palatable if it was harder to swap the drive unit?

 

[tomas]

Now that the L upgrade performance facts are becoming known, it must be getting really hard for SOME of the people who feel wronged and want compensation to resist taking the plunge for $5k. Maybe 85D to P85D doesn't seem worth $20k, but 85D to P85DL worth $25k? Hmmm.... And remember, you have to own the P to get the L... you can't upgrade your car to L from 85D. For those who remain too irate to be tempted, please notice I said SOME! :biggrin:

 

[P85DEE]

Now that the L upgrade performance facts are becoming known, it must be getting really hard for SOME of the people who feel wronged and want compensation to resist taking the plunge for $5k. Maybe 85D to P85D doesn't seem worth $20k, but 85D to P85DL worth $25k? Hmmm.... And remember, you have to own the P to get the L... you can't upgrade your car to L from 85D. For those who remain too irate to be tempted, please notice I said SOME! :biggrin:

I broached this same thing earlier, and asked how some who felt conned in the first place, could turn right back around and go running straight back to the same con man who had lied to them, lied to their faces and treated them like jerks before, and had ripped them off earlier, how they could then go back with 5 grand more of their money in their fists to hand him, but I decided to leave it alone, and perhaps better it be left alone.

Why?

Because these are good times for us and whether you feel conned or whether you feel that you got your money's worth from the get go, we are a charmed group of owners.

We own one of the quickest cars in the world, and for just 5k, it can be made even quicker than it is already, and in warranty, while increasing its value.

Find me another manufacturer which will allow you to do that in a car that they already sold you. They'd require you to buy a brand new car and take a loss in your old one.

 

[lolachampcar]

Amazingly argumentative point of view and completely dismissive of those with well thought out and articulated positions.....................

 

[chickensevil]

You do realise that when they ship to Europe they take the motors out and pop them back in again when they're here? I'd be surprised if they didn't fit really easily. I recon the upgrade is easier than the ludicrous one.

Not sure I was suggesting the cost here was in the implementation... If I was, then I'm sorry. So to clear that one up. Let's assume that it is just as easy to swap an engine in an ICE... Drop out the rear (or front) axle, put on the new unit, raise it back into place. Done.

Now, back to my comment: So you complaining that they just "bolt a different motor in the back" is like saying, well all Mercedes does is just bolt in a new engine/transmission up front, "that's it". The only difference between a lambo and a honda is that engine/transmission, "that's it".

Because I am sure from an initial installation point of view, installing the AMG engine vs the standard engine is no more complex, or maybe only slightly so. What costs so much money is the engine itself (and likely the assembly of said engine, which is actually very likely where most of the cost difference is on the AMG since it claims to be "hand built" whatever that is supposed to mean... just like Tesla used to claim that their stators on the motors for the sport Roadster were "hand spun" and charged quite a penny for it). What costs so much on the Tesla side? Not sure, higher quality components? Bigger unit? Even their tiny motors are not cheap... Just because something is small (EV Motor vs ICE Engine // Laptop vs Desktop vs Smart Phone) doesn't mean it is cheap especially if it is pulling similar performance as what used to fit in a much larger packaging.

 

[Andyw2100]

I heard that even the new 85 kWh batteries now contain the new gen contactors and fuse. This was confirmed by someone working at a SeC.
This hardware is probably more reliable (MTBF) and, if available in volume, is probably cheaper to use in all batteries.

Very interesting information that the new hardware is now also in 85s. It makes sense, though.

Your point about reliability is one I failed to make when posting quickly earlier, but not one that I failed to make the very first time I tried to sell my wife on why the ludicrous upgrade might be a good idea when I first read about it in July. I told her that leaving aside the speed improvements, etc., the better fuse and better contactors were almost certainly going to decrease the chances of some sort of catastrophic failure on the road. So I'm sure you are correct about that, and reliability being another reason Tesla is using the new fuses and contactors instead of the older ones.

 

[P85DEE]

It's hard to have your argument that you've been ripped off of your hard earned money, and that you didn't have delivered to you that which was promised in the first place, taken seriously, when you turn right back around and hand the entity which you claim ripped you off, still even more of your money..... and all the while knowing that even this extra money "still" won't get you what you claim that you were entitled to, paid for, but did not get in the first place.

How do I pay you, argue that based upon xyz that you didn't give me what I paid for, and then pay you some more, all the time knowing that this additional payment, still won't get me what you originally owed me from the first payment to begin with?

You "don't" give me 691hp the first time I paid you. But I bring you more money, all the time knowing that even after I give you that, I still won't have 691 horsepower?

The Ludicrous upgrade and those of us who opt for it, may actually do more to put this matter to bed than perhaps anything else.

 

[whitex]

It's hard to have your argument that you've been ripped off of your hard earned money, and that you didn't have delivered to you that which was promised in the first place, taken seriously, when you turn right back around and hand the entity which you claim ripped you off, still even more of your money..... and all the while knowing that even this extra money "still" won't get you what you claim that you were entitled to but didn't get in the first place.

The Ludicrous upgrade and those of us who opt for it, may actually do more to put this matter to bed than perhaps anything else.

OR, maybe those who pay the extra $5K treating it as a temporary fix for the car (as in, the car it's broken since it delivers only 2/3 of the advertised power). If you bought a new car and the transmission went out and you couldn't get the manufacturer to fix it as part of warranty, you might consider paying for a new transmission so you have something to drive while you figure out what your options are to get compensated, no? ;-)

You are partially correct that Ludicrous could help Tesla put it to bed. They could settle it by offering to upgrade people who bought based on Tesla's own 691hp advertising the full Ludicrous (including 90KWh battery) - so you still don't get 691hp but you get 532hp (the most any Model S can put out) and an extra 5KWh battery capacity to compensate for the missing 159hp. Probably not everyone would go for it, but I suspect most would.

 

[gsxdsm]

Tesla is not going to give anyone a free upgrade to Ludicrous IMO.

They might offer to buy back some vehicles in Norway but if they were going to offer free Ludicrous upgrades they would have done it by now. That ship has sailed.

And frankly as a shareholder I'm glad they aren't. I'd rather the company part ways with owners that feel unhappy and litigious and focus on more important matters.


My question - for the owners that feel taken advantage of and upset, would you feel satisfied if Tesla refunded your purchase amount in exchange for your vehicle back and the inability to purchase Tesla vehicles in the future? I'd honestly like to know if this is the outcome some are seeking. Let's assume any sort of freebies and handouts are off the table (which they are), how do you feel Tesla can make you whole and at what cost to future buying opportunities?

 

[P85DEE]

OR, maybe those who pay the extra $5K treating it as a temporary fix for the car (as in, the car it's broken since it delivers only 2/3 of the advertised power). If you bought a new car and the transmission went out and you couldn't get the manufacturer to fix it as part of warranty, you might consider paying for a new transmission so you have something to drive while you figure out what your options are to get compensated, no? ;-)

In your example, you're talking about my having been sold a car which ends up with a broken transmission, an issue which can be made right, or whole, by putting a new transmission in it.

In my example, I'm talking about a car which was sold to me, and said to have XYZ horsepower, and I'm claiming that it actually doesn't, and nothing practical can be done to make it have that amount of horsepower.

Well that analogy won't quite work, because we're talking about goods which were "never delivered", i.e. 691hp, vs disputably "defective goods" which were indeed delivered, but which failed while under the warranty period.

I would in fact consider paying for a new transmission until I could fight the manufacturer, if there were a dispute about the warranty, and whether or not I was within the warranty agreement and had operated the car under the stipulations of the warranty.

I will have paid for a new transmission, but at least I'm made whole until I can have the issue mediated, ...even though I had to step up and open my own wallet to do it.

At the end of the day, I'd have a car with a perfect "new" transmission in it, which is what I was supposed to have had in the first place. I'd then take the matter to a higher level.

However that is an entirely different matter from paying for goods which I'm arguing that I never, ever, ever received, namely 691 horsepower, and then opening up my wallet and pulling up more money, knowing that even after that additional money, I still won't receive the goods (691 horses) that I'm arguing that I had originally paid for and was entitled to, but did not get.

So in effect, I'm walking into a situation knowing that after all the smoke clears, after I open my wallet yet again, I still won't be whole,.... still won't have my 691 horsepower, even after spending the extra money.

But I'm going to do that anyway? Especially if part of my argument is that I was deceived to begin with?

You are partially correct that Ludicrous could help Tesla put it to bed. They could settle it by offering to upgrade people who bought based on Tesla's own 691hp advertising the full Ludicrous (including 90KWh battery) - so you still don't get 691hp but you get 532hp (the most any Model S can put out) and an extra 5KWh battery capacity to compensate for the missing 159hp. Probably not everyone would go for it, but I suspect most would.

And what of the ones who went ahead and paid?

Should they then come back and argue that they had to pay for what Tesla gave to others for free? Others who were in the same boat as they?

 

[Andyw2100]

It's hard to have your argument that you've been ripped off of your hard earned money, and that you didn't have delivered to you that which was promised in the first place, taken seriously, when you turn right back around and hand the entity which you claim ripped you off, still even more of your money..... and all the while knowing that even this extra money "still" won't get you what you claim that you were entitled to, paid for, but did not get in the first place.

How do I pay you, argue that based upon xyz that you didn't give me what I paid for, and then pay you some more, all the time knowing that this additional payment, still won't get me what you originally owed me from the first payment to begin with?

You "don't" give me 691hp the first time I paid you. But I bring you more money, all the time knowing that even after I give you that, I still won't have 691 horsepower?

People may be choosing to reluctantly pay the extra $5000 because it's the better option. Not paying it might be viewed as cutting off your nose to spite your face. People opting to pay it might be very annoyed that it is not being given to them at no charge, but if they don't want to take Tesla to court for whatever their reason may be, and do want the additional power they had expected in the first place, their only option is to pay the $5000 to receive it. If they are planning on living with their six-figure investment for quite some time, the $5000 additional cost adds a fair amount of value. Additionally it may increase resale value by more than $5,000.

In my opinion there is nothing at all inconsistent with someone being upset with Tesla over the horsepower issue, and still opting to pay the $5000 for the Ludicrous upgrade.