Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Andyw2100]

Well, going back to regional differences, even 0-60 is "controversial".

In the U.S. we are used to the inclusion of rollout for arriving at the 0-60 spec. In Europe, rollout appears to not be accepted as much.

I think Tesla is learning, and if nothing else comes of all this, at least there is that.

I feel like the Tesla marketing department doesn't fully appreciate how good the Model S is, so to some extent uses traditional marketing tactics when they don't have to. Tesla could publish complete information on roll out, and the numbers would still be incredibly impressive, and in all likelihood about the same number of people would complete purchases. I'm in the camp opposed to doing things like working the gas savings into the price of the car and the rebate into the price of the car on the website. I think it's unnecessary, and makes Tesla look too ordinary--too much like car dealers who price their cars at $19,999. Tesla is better than that. The Model S is better than that. Tesla should embrace the high road, like what they are doing with the seatbelt recall. They should endeavor to have a reputation of excellence. A reputation of being above the fray. "We found one faulty seat belt, so we recalled 90,000 cars. That's what we do. We're Tesla." That's the attitude I want to see from the marketing department. "We're not going to show you gimmicky pricing. The car costs $70,000 - 100,000. Extras can add up to $30,000. You'll get a tax rebate of $7500 and of course significant savings from the money you won't spend on gas." Simple as that.

The Model S (and I imagine now the Model X too) are good enough to be the vehicles that sell themselves. Tesla just needs to let them.

 

[Auzie]

I can guarantee you that the information on this issue is much easier to find on this forum than to it was to find information on the missing HP on Tesla’s site at the P85D launch... The information I'm referring to are actually here (I’m still unsure if Mrs. Ausie actually was interested in more info on the Norwegian legal process) unlike info on the real horsepower on Tesla's site at that time...

:biggrin::wink:

Funny wasn’t it?

Kalllagtunet I consider my curiosity on Tesla motors power quite satisfied, thanks to some knowledgeable folks here who were willing to put the time and effort to explain in detail matters related to Tesla motors power.

Since you spoke as a person of knowledge on 'process in Norway'

You obviously do not know much of this process in Norway.

I asked about that process, as I know little about it.

I am curious to learn about it. What are the expectations?

Your response:

The process has already been described (probably several times (not by "crazystop" and the sources he refer)) in this and other threads on the subject so if you or others really are interested I think you will find relevant information on it.

It is true that 'crazystop' provided numerous informative links on the subject. I was hoping that you might be in a position to inform us all a bit more with local Norwegian knowledge and most importantly interpretation and expectations. If you decline to do so, that's fine. We will all learn, even if it is through 'crazystop' provided links.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You obviously do not know much of this process in Norway.

How so? I'm going to dig through the posts later on with links, but so far unless I am mistaken, right now the proceeding is going through the Norwegian Consumer Council.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Consumer_Council

Another poster said that this Council is not a court, but rather a consumer advocacy group and any decision it makes can be challenged in an actual court. It has also been posted numerous times that this advocacy group is biased toward the consumer (as any consumer groups should be).

Edit, below are links from where I got my impression from that what the Council decides is not the same as an actual court. Tesla is free to challenge any decision by the Council in court (in which case whatever is there would be publicly accessible and fully be based on the law), but it has not reached this step yet:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...P90L/page151?p=1240834&viewfull=1#post1240834

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show.../page54?p=1226326&highlight=court#post1226326

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...P90L/page155?p=1243006&viewfull=1#post1243006

More evidence: the Apple iTunes case is a prime example. The Norway Consumer Council decided Apple DRM was illegal in early 2006. Up until 2008 they were still threatening to take Apple to court (which implies their decision is not the same as an actual court decision). In the end, when Apple switched to DRM-free music in 2009 and the Norway Consumer Council withdrew their complaint, but the case was never actually decided in court the whole time.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2009/02/norway-we-have-no-reason-to-pursue-apple-over-drm-anymore/

 

[pdq]

I contacted Tesla here in PA. Without me reading 179 pages of posts on this, I hope it's come to everyone's attention that those HP numbers with the '*' are specific to Norway, and not the US.

pdq

 

[stopcrazypp]

I can guarantee you that the information on this issue is much easier to find on this forum than to it was to find information on the missing HP on Tesla’s site at the P85D launch... The information I'm referring to are actually here (I’m still unsure if Mrs. Ausie actually was interested in more info on the Norwegian legal process) unlike info on the real horsepower on Tesla's site at that time...

:biggrin::wink:

Funny wasn’t it?

I disagree on this. The search function is horrible on this forum. I find things faster on google by using "site:teslamotorsclub.com" than I do here (esp. true in this "horsepower" topic which spans multiple threads), although unfortunately google doesn't index everything on this forum.

If I google tesla "motor power," one of the top links is this article from October 17, 2014, a week after the dual motor launch that explains pretty clearly what "motor power" means.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ower-numbers-for-tesla-model-s-whats-the-deal

 

[P85DEE]

I disagree on this. The search function is horrible on this forum. I find things faster on google by using "site:teslamotorsclub.com" than I do here, although unfortunately google doesn't index everything on this forum.

If I google tesla "motor power," one of the top links is this article from October 17, 2014, a week after the dual motor launch that explains pretty clearly what "motor power" means.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ower-numbers-for-tesla-model-s-whats-the-deal

Interesting article.

And the date on it is even more intriguing.

 

[Andyw2100]

If I google tesla "motor power," one of the top links is this article from October 17, 2014, a week after the dual motor launch that explains pretty clearly what "motor power" means.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ower-numbers-for-tesla-model-s-whats-the-deal

Interesting article.

Yes. That's the article that includes the following:

"The company is already working on an update to the website to explain this distinction between net power and "motor power." "

 

[lolachampcar]

More telling for me is

"It corresponded to the way horsepower is traditionally measured in cars, and accurately reflected the performance of the various models.

The new horsepower number, however, is simply a measure of the maximum power that the motor itself is capable of producing. It does not take into account any limitations imposed by the particular battery and inverter that power that motor in a specific vehicle."

The first sentence refers to how Tesla used to report power levels for their cars. Note what I consider to be a simple common sense collection of words "and accurately reflected the performance of the various models". This pretty much sums up my dismay. Tesla migrated away from an understandable common sense method of communicating their product's power levels and to some BS method that speaks only to the motor(s) itself/themselves. Normally this would happen out of a need to conform to an external standard or a need to BS your customers. What I find especially interesting are the people in this thread vehemently defending the specification by excruciating examination of every word and reference to a European testing method all in an attempt to explain such an idiotic move.

 

[P85DEE]

Yes. That's the article that includes the following:

"The company is already working on an update to the website to explain this distinction between net power and "motor power." "

This statement that the company was working on an update to the website explaining the distinction, did the company state that it was doing so, or was this just the belief of the author of the article?

 

[Kalllagtunet]

I was hoping that you might be in a position to inform us all a bit more with local Norwegian knowledge and most importantly interpretation and expectations. If you decline to do so, that's fine. We will all learn, even if it is through 'crazystop' provided links.

Here you have the process in Norway explained:

This is actually what is happening at the moment in Norway. The official government funded consumer council is handling the direct dialogue with Tesla on behalf of 80+ owners, and they will _if_ they feel the need further the case towards the "Forbrukertvistutvalget" which is the final step before going to court in such cases here. A ruling in the "Forbrukertvistutvalget" is binding unless Tesla or the owners appeal the ruling and thus forces the case to go to the courts.

If it goes that far most likely one of the national automotive organisations would fund the lawyers working for the consumer side. This has happened in the past in a case against Nissan much less obvious than this one which they did lose in the end after winning the first case.

The actual meetings in the first step in the consumer counsil are not open but Tesla will give a written statement on their position that will be sent to all the involved complaintants that then will be asked for coments/more information if relevat. Tesla have asked for an extention on this and have until first of desember to argue their case in this first step before the "forbrukertvistutvalget" like explained above.

 

[lolachampcar]

On a related note, Yo Mamma (you really can not make this stuff up) has just picked up his P85DL in the Bay Area. If there is a participant on this thread with a P90DL living in the area, you could do everyone a favor by getting together with him an seeing how the P85DL stacks up against the P90DL.

Ludicrous Upgrade Scheduling? - Page 5

 

[P85DEE]

More telling for me is

"It corresponded to the way horsepower is traditionally measured in cars, and accurately reflected the performance of the various models.

The new horsepower number, however, is simply a measure of the maximum power that the motor itself is capable of producing. It does not take into account any limitations imposed by the particular battery and inverter that power that motor in a specific vehicle."

The first sentence refers to how Tesla used to report power levels for their cars. Note what I consider to be a simple common sense collection of words "and accurately reflected the performance of the various models". This pretty much sums up my dismay. Tesla migrated away from an understandable common sense method of communicating their product's power levels and to some BS method that speaks only to the motor(s) itself/themselves. Normally this would happen out of a need to conform to an external standard or a need to BS your customers. What I find especially interesting are the people in this thread vehemently defending the specification by excruciating examination of every word and reference to a European testing method all in an attempt to explain such an idiotic move.

From what I read and understand from JB's comments, they had to go this route after the dual motor models were introduced.

Tesla All Wheel Drive (Dual Motor) Power and Torque Specifications | Tesla Motors

 

[Kalllagtunet]

From what I read and understand from JB's comments, they had to go this route after the dual motor models were introduced.

Tesla All Wheel Drive (Dual Motor) Power and Torque Specifications | Tesla Motors

Strangely enough they dont have to go that route any longer... It is a mystery!

 

[P85DEE]

Strangely enough they dont have to go that route any longer... It is a mystery!

I'm looking at the comments here and they are interesting as well.

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 136

The thing that catches my eye in the translation here is in bold:

I'm sorry but I believe this thread deserves an as-good-as-possible translation of the entire statement. Please keep in mind the fact that I'm a Swede living in Norway for 10 years

This, according to me, is what the communications manager said:

"The rules have been in a gray area. And it's not hard for me to understand that to people we may seem to have been a bit too ingenious [in our way of presenting the horse power numbers]. But now we have corrected the numbers and the correction is here to stay. Some may suggest that earlier we elected to represent ourselves in the best possible light. But now we represent ourselves in the poorest of light, power wise, without someone [some authority] having asked us to do that".

And then he says:

"Our customers have been in doubt when it comes to the number of horse powers the Model S delivers at the wheels. In order to create clarity we have changed the way we communicate the number of horse powers on our website. We report, as always, the maximum output of the motors, which is in accordance with EU regulations, but to make things absolutely clear we have also added "battery limited hp". This is not a legal requirement and the resulting number of horsepowers is affected by a number of variables (state of charge, temperature etc.). But we have chosen to publish this number in order to meet the wishes of our customers."

So it seems that they were using "maximum output of the motors, which is in accordance with EU regulations, (I don't know if they were legally compelled to do so. Were they?) but now have decided to also add to their description, "battery limited hp" which they say is not a legal requirement.

The question I have is, the part in red bold. Is that a legal requirement?

 

[Hookmaker]

Sorry, then, I took it in the wrong way. I guess seeing you say my opinion is not "informed" (in bold) seemed like a rude shot against me as a non P85D owner. You could have just said you don't agree with my opinion, rather than saying it was uninformed. But I see now in your explanation no offence was intended. No hard feelings (group hug!).

In any event, I form my opinions based on facts and reason. In my opinion, most P85D owners did not buy the car based on the advertised hp. 0-to-60, yes, hp, no (my opinion). Also, my reason (and opinion) tells me that the vast majority of P85D owners are not concerned with this issue. Once again, it's just my opinion, though, nothing more. I hope it's informed but perhaps not.

I don't give much for political correctness, so i dare say that you can't possibly have an opinion about what P85D owners think or don't think. You may be entitled to an opinion on what you believe they think, but that's about it. And then for a fact I can tell you that you believe wrong! Maybe not for the States and Canada, but in Scandinavia as a whole, a growing part (and closing in on the majority) feel absolutely ********ted by Tesla. And many have chosen to take action against Tesla motors.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

Yes, it would appear that they don't have to.

But I'm looking at the comments here and they are interesting as well.

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 136

The thing that catches my eye in the translation here is in bold:



So it seems that they were using "maximum output of the motors, which is in accordance with EU regulations, but have decided to also add "battery limited hp" which is not a legal requirement.

Strangely they sold cars in the EU for a long period with info on the battery limited HP before the P85D. Go figure....

 

[Auzie]

Here you have the process in Norway explained:

The actual meetings in the first step in the consumer counsil are not open but Tesla will give a written statement on their position that will be sent to all the involved complaintants that then will be asked for coments/more information if relevat. Tesla have asked for an extention on this and have until first of desember to argue their case in this first step before the "forbrukertvistutvalget" like explained above.

Thanks gtunetKallla, much apreciated

 

[P85DEE]

I don't give much for political correctness, so i dare say that you can't possibly have an opinion about what P85D owners think or don't think. You may be entitled to an opinion on what you believe they think, but that's about it. And then for a fact I can tell you that you believe wrong! Maybe not for the States and Canada, but in Scandinavia as a whole, a growing part (and closing in on the majority) feel absolutely ********ted by Tesla. And many have chosen to take action against Tesla motors.

How many Teslas have been sold in Scandinavia as a whole?

The reason why I ask is because I was reading earlier that about 150 or so owners in Norway were involved in the legal matter.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

How many Teslas have been sold in Scandinavia as a whole?

The reason why I ask is because I was reading earlier that about 150 or so owners in Norway were involved in the legal matter.

I think approx 8000 (of them 631 of the P85D) in Norway, a couple of hundred in Sweden, don't know the numbers in Denmark but ny guestimate is between 1100 today and probably close to 2000 by year end due to the end/change of EV incentives in Denmark next Year.

 

[Krugerrand]

I can guarantee you that the information on this issue is much easier to find on this forum than to it was to find information on the missing HP on Tesla’s site at the P85D launch... The information I'm referring to are actually here (I’m still unsure if Mrs. Ausie actually was interested in more info on the Norwegian legal process) unlike info on the real horsepower on Tesla's site at that time...

:biggrin::wink:

Funny wasn’t it?

It does not matter how hard it is to find the information and that was part of the point. Auzie asked you for information and you denied her and told her if she really wanted it she could go back looking through this thread...just as if you wanted to know what motor power horsepower meant you could have investigated without Tesla's information (even though when asked Tesla produced the information).

The other point being that (to my knowledge) nobody who now has an issue with the hp number ever asked Tesla in the first place what motor power horsepower meant; you all assumed it meant the same as horsepower did if you were buying an ICE, which means you didn't even do the equivalent of what Auzie did in asking the/a source that would know - but you put all the responsibility on Auzie anyway and yet you've done the exact opposite concerning Tesla and put all the responsibility on them to tell you what it meant and none on yourselves to find out what it meant.

So yeah, my post was funny. Though I understand not everyone will see the humor in it.