Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[tomas]

This pretty much sums up my dismay. Tesla migrated away from an understandable common sense method of communicating their product's power levels and to some BS method that speaks only to the motor(s) itself/themselves.

I've tried to imagine the conference room discussion(s) that led to this. Here's the play I'm seeing in my brain (you are each entitled to your own theatre, of course):

The D started to come together, and Tesla management was blown away by the launch acceleration. They probably weren't sure what they could achieve until they got to practical testing and tuned the D software. They got excited! As introduction approached, they sat down to write the web-page specs. They got stuck on HP. 463 (not really different from the P85 and not much more than the 85D) just did not represent the launch performance of the PD in insane mode. They talked this over, discussed various approaches to presenting HP, and decided that showing combined motor HP was the best way to draw attention to the launch performance difference. It is possible that they rationalized this was OK due to the EU reg. Rather than using one spec approach for the D and another for the RWD cars, they decided to move all of the S lineup to this new approach.

Now, they've added back the *original HP metric. I'm sure that they are having quite different conference room discussions on this topic. I'm sad that this has turned into such a disappointment for some number of PD buyers, and such a distraction for Tesla. I keep trying to remember (and I hope you all will too) that they are a very young company, growing in leaps and bounds, bringing to market at scale something that no other car company has succeeded with - on many fronts. There have been amazingly few mis-steps. I see nothing else to indicate that they are unethical, so I don't believe they were in this case. I hope it can be resolved so that everybody is accepting the resolution, if not happy.

I'd be very curious to know: has the proportion of people ordering the PD vs. the D changed since they posted the *HP metric?

 

[Kalllagtunet]

It does not matter how hard it is to find the information and that was part of the point. Auzie asked you for information and you denied her and told her if she really wanted it she could go back looking through this thread...just as if you wanted to know what motor power horsepower meant you could have investigated without Tesla's information (even though when asked Tesla produced the information).

The other point being that (to my knowledge) nobody who now has an issue with the hp number ever asked Tesla in the first place what motor power horsepower meant; you all assumed it meant the same as horsepower did if you were buying an ICE, which means you didn't even do the equivalent of what Auzie did in asking the/a source that would know - but you put all the responsibility on Auzie anyway and yet you've done the exact opposite concerning Tesla and put all the responsibility on them to tell you what it meant and none on yourselves to find out what it meant.

So yeah, my post was funny. Though I understand not everyone will see the humor in it.

What knowledge do you have on what I or other P85D owners did or did not before we ordered.?? Wk57 had a blow out on this a couple of pages ago, please read it...

 

[kennybobby]

... What I find especially interesting are the people in this thread vehemently defending the specification by excruciating examination of every word and reference to a European testing method all in an attempt to explain such an idiotic move.

LCC comes thru again, +1, lol...

 

[P85DEE]

I think approx 8000 (of them 631 of the P85D) in Norway, a couple of hundred in Sweden, don't know the numbers in Denmark but ny guestimate is between 1100 today and probably close to 2000 by year end due to the end/change of EV incentives in Denmark next Year.

OK, so it seems that we're talking about a total of about 10,200 Model S cars, of which 631 are P85Ds and about 150 plus people involved in the legal matte, or about 1.5% of Model S owners in Scandinavia.

 

[vgrinshpun]

More telling for me is

"It corresponded to the way horsepower is traditionally measured in cars, and accurately reflected the performance of the various models.

The new horsepower number, however, is simply a measure of the maximum power that the motor itself is capable of producing. It does not take into account any limitations imposed by the particular battery and inverter that power that motor in a specific vehicle."

The first sentence refers to how Tesla used to report power levels for their cars. Note what I consider to be a simple common sense collection of words "and accurately reflected the performance of the various models". This pretty much sums up my dismay. Tesla migrated away from an understandable common sense method of communicating their product's power levels and to some BS method that speaks only to the motor(s) itself/themselves. Normally this would happen out of a need to conform to an external standard or a need to BS your customers. What I find especially interesting are the people in this thread vehemently defending the specification by excruciating examination of every word and reference to a European testing method all in an attempt to explain such an idiotic move.

I am curious if you think that Tesla move to stick motors with the combined hp rating of 691 in a car that is battery limited to 463 hp was idiotic as well?

 

[Krugerrand]

What knowledge do you have on what I or other P85D owners did or did not before we ordered.?? Wk57 had a blow out on this a couple of pages ago, please read it...

If the group of Norwegian owners had asked what motor power horsepower meant, and meant in terms of full performance metrics (including passing performance at higher speeds) prior to buying their cars then they wouldn't actually be in mediation right now. Would they? That's just common sense.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

OK, so it seems that we're talking about a total of about 10,200 Model S cars, of which 631 are P85Ds and about 150 plus people involved in the legal matte, or about 1.5% of Model S owners in Scandinavia.

A more relevant metric will be the percentage of owners affected of the case... 25% and counting of P85D owners in Norway, do not know the numers inwolved in denmark. I really do not know how the 9500 or so owners of cars not affected of the HP issue of P85D should be a part of this legal issue??? I can garantee that they will be dismissed along with owners of Leaf, VW, BMW, RR and Bugatti.... But then again you like to twist the facts.

 

[Discoducky]

Arg, I tried to figure out how the Hellcat does their horsepower marketing and hit a dead end at the Wards Auto website.

The disclaimer on the Hellcat site and PDF brochure calls out that horsepower is 707 but only says, that I can find, it is compared against other cars by Wards Auto.

Anyone know how to dig up this info? Maybe it has already been done, but I'd like to see how it can be done from the Hellcat site or at least linked somehow.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

If the group of Norwegian owners had asked what motor power horsepower meant, and meant in terms of full performance metrics (including passing performance at higher speeds) prior to buying their cars then they wouldn't actually be in mediation right now. Would they? That's just common sense.

Read WK57 blow out at least 10 times! It's deleted by him but quoted a couple of posts later.

Linked it for you, since you have trouble searcing... Replace EE with Krug when you read it...

Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L - Page 166

 

[lolachampcar]

I am curious if you think that Tesla move to stick motors with the combined hp rating of 691 in a car that is battery limited to 463 hp was idiotic as well?

Our view points are so radically different that I've tried not to antagonize you by responding to your posts.

This one is pretty easy. I was and continue to be amazed at what Tesla has done from a product and technical standpoint. I've had my issues with their business sense when it comes to dealing with customers (while continuing to be amazed at how Elon handles the financial community).

I think the concept of 691 hp combined motor horsepower is useless until such time as Tesla or someone else produces a battery that lets us use the available motor horsepower. I think Tesla's move to produce the P85D, 90D and L versions of both was a fantastic move as the performance of these cars will continue to generate press and make Tesla an urban legend. The idiotic part was the way they chose to talk about horsepower when all they had to do was base their comments on reality which was more than impressive enough.

 

[LetsGoFast]

We report, as always, the maximum output of the motors, which is in accordance with EU regulations, but to make things absolutely clear we have also added "battery limited hp". This is not a legal requirement and the resulting number of horsepowers is affected by a number of variables (state of charge, temperature etc.). But we have chosen to publish this number in order to meet the wishes of our customers.

This is pretty amusing, actually. As noted in the GreenCarReports, the practice of reporting the HP as the maximum output of the motors was not "as always." They started doing it at the time of the dual motors launch. Prior to that date, they had always used "battery limited hp" so that sentence seems pretty much demonstrably false.

I think the concept of 691 hp combined motor horsepower is useless until such time as Tesla or someone else produces a battery that lets us use the available motor horsepower. I think Tesla's move to produce the P85D, 90D and L versions of both was a fantastic move as the performance of these cars will continue to generate press and make Tesla an urban legend. The idiotic part was the way they chose to talk about horsepower when all they had to do was base their comments on reality which was more than impressive enough.

Exactly! I've yet to see anything from the apologists that couldn't have been accurately represented by providing battery-limited HP, torque and weight -- as performance cars have been measured forever. The crazy HP numbers don't detract from the fact that the car is amazing, its just disappointing that they did it and clung to that marketing method for so long.

 

[P85DEE]

This is pretty amusing, actually. As noted in the GreenCarReports, the practice of reporting the HP as the maximum output of the motors was not "as always." They started doing it at the time of the dual motors launch. Prior to that date, they had always used "battery limited hp" so that sentence seems pretty much demonstrably false.




Exactly! I've yet to see anything from the apologists that couldn't have been accurately represented by providing battery-limited HP, torque and weight -- as performance cars have been measured forever. The crazy HP numbers don't detract from the fact that the car is amazing, its just disappointing that they did it and clung to that marketing method for so long.

So what do you think will become of all of this LetsGoFast?

 

[vgrinshpun]

Our view points are so radically different that I've tried not to antagonize you by responding to your posts.

This one is pretty easy. I was and continue to be amazed at what Tesla has done from a product and technical standpoint. I've had my issues with their business sense when it comes to dealing with customers (while continuing to be amazed at how Elon handles the financial community).

I think the concept of 691 hp combined motor horsepower is useless until such time as Tesla or someone else produces a battery that lets us use the available motor horsepower. I think Tesla's move to produce the P85D, 90D and L versions of both was a fantastic move as the performance of these cars will continue to generate press and make Tesla an urban legend. The idiotic part was the way they chose to talk about horsepower when all they had to do was base their comments on reality which was more than impressive enough.

I am not sure how it can be claimed that the concept of 691 hp combined motor horsepower is useless if it allows P85D to significantly improve 0 to 60 mph, without much improvement to the power that can be drawn (from the same) battery? I am not sure why do you say that? This is exactly what is responsible for "performance of these cars will continue to generate press and make Tesla and urban legend". I think it is pretty clear (or should be clear) by now that this combined rating is exactly what allows to increase the torque, or the speed of the power ramp-up from 0 rpm. So I am genuinely puzzled by your rejection of Tesla right to present these cars in a way that emphasizes the technical solution they came up with to enable "fantastic move" to introduce these cars.

I think that it is easy to second guess it in hindsight, but if anything the horsepower threads demonstrate, is that there really were no good way to communicate what Tesla did to the public at large (which by definition does not have sufficient technical background) the technical characteristics of this car.

Mentioning 691 motor hp did not do it.

Mentioning 463hp does not cut it either, as it does not reflect the additional cost and engineering Tesla did to provide the 3.2s 0 to 60 acceleration. And it is clear that exactly this extra engineering and cost that they put in this car is responsible for the serious improvement in acceleration, compared to the car that is limited to 463hp by the battery and have motors with the combined rating that just matching the battery limit, i.e. 463hp.

Mentioning the 691 motor hp with an asterisk indicating that it is subject ot the battery power limitation (463hp) clearly does not work - all you have to do to undersand this is to read through the posts on this thread which talk about "real" 463hp. Once again, if a customer is dismissing 691 motor rating, you end up with the gross misrepresentation of P85D as 463hp car (with the matching combined motor hp rating), as described above.

When in the past I mentioned that Tesla did not handle the representation of this issue well, I thought that they should have mentioned both 691 motor hp and the limitation of the battery, but now I understand that this wouldn't have worked without mandating that every prospective owner takes 10-hour engineering course and passes a test on the subject...

 

[Canuck]

I don't give much for political correctness, so i dare say that you can't possibly have an opinion about what P85D owners think or don't think. You may be entitled to an opinion on what you believe they think, but that's about it. And then for a fact I can tell you that you believe wrong!

I don't mind you me telling that "I can't possibly have an opinion about what P85D owners think or don't think" because I don't own one. I bet I could buy more P85D's cash than you can but who cares? Your comment makes you look foolish not only for trying to act superior to me by owing one (which I take is your political correctness reference) but for your complete ignorance on how informed opinions are derived.

The most informed opinions on issues (not beliefs!) are based on objective and not subjective data. Owning one is subjective data.

Maybe not for the States and Canada, but in Scandinavia as a whole, a growing part (and closing in on the majority) feel absolutely ********ted by Tesla. And many have chosen to take action against Tesla motors.

The objective data currently available says it's less than 25% of P85D owners in Denmark. Sorry, but your informed opinion by owning ones doesn't correlate to the actual data currently available. We will have to wait for more data to see who is right but I reiterate my informed opinion that it is less than the majority of owners.

And then for a fact I can tell you that you believe wrong!

Now you're just being silly and making stuff up. If you can tell me for a "fact" then show me the data. If not, then it's just your opinion. And I know for a fact that you won't have any data to support what you claim to know as a fact.

 

[Auzie]

I fully support VG's excellent post above. I am not as knowledgeable on motor's theory as VG is, but lets say that thousands of motors have passed through my hands, I have seen what they can do in various complex set ups, and I speak from such experience.

To say that Tesla misrepresented their car by claiming 691 motor hp is simply incorrect. The first thing that I look at when looking at a complex system that has few inbuilt motors that make such system perform any work, is to look at motors spec. That spec is one of the most informative metrics of the system, as it determines the system performance in various scenarios. In the same way that P85D 691hp motors metric determine car's superb acceleration, akin to a 'launch from a carrier deck'.

It is just so unfortunate that Tesla is in this position. It is no one's fault, and all people claiming being misinformed, it is not Tesla's fault that you feel that way.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I fully support VG's excellent post above. I am not as knowledgeable on motor's theory as VG is, but lets say that thousands of motors have passed through my hands, I have seen what they can do in various complex set ups, and I speak from such experience.

To say that Tesla misrepresented their car by claiming 691 motor hp is simply incorrect. The first thing that I look at when looking at a complex system that has few inbuilt motors that make such system perform any work, is to look at motors spec. That spec is one of the most informative metrics of the system, as it determines the system performance in various scenarios. In the same way that P85D 691hp motors metric determine car's superb acceleration, akin to a 'launch from a carrier deck'.

It is just so unfortunate that Tesla is in this position. It is no one's fault, and all people claiming being misinformed, it is not Tesla's fault that you feel that way.

It almost seems like a punishment for the innovation.

Tesla would not be in this position if they just went the safe and proven way, and just tuck front motor to every car in their previous line-up, selecting the motors in such a way that they just've maintained the existing acceleration metrics. With the introduction of the Dual Motor Drive in such a way they would still have sold as many cars as they can produce, without all the trouble.

 

[yak-55]

I am not sure how it can be claimed that the concept of 691 hp combined motor horsepower is useless if it allows P85D to significantly improve 0 to 60 mph, without much improvement to the power that can be drawn (from the same) battery? I am not sure why do you say that? This is exactly what is responsible for "performance of these cars will continue to generate press and make Tesla and urban legend". I think it is pretty clear (or should be clear) by now that this combined rating is exactly what allows to increase the torque, or the speed of the power ramp-up from 0 rpm.

This is absolutely wrong. The motor power rating has nothing to do with the 0-60 performance. The actual power produced by the motors during the 0-60 run is what is responsible. At no time during 0-60 do the motors produce anything close to their "rated power". Please stop with this FUD.

If you want to be accurate, it is superior high torque at low speed, excellent traction control, and 4WD that makes the Tesla Model S perform better from 0-60 than other cars you may be thinking of that are rated at/near 463hp.

 

[tomas]

This is absolutely wrong. The motor power rating has nothing to do with the 0-60 performance. The actual power produced by the motors during the 0-60 run is what is responsible. At no time during 0-60 do the motors produce anything close to their "rated power". Please stop with this FUD.

If you want to be accurate, it is superior high torque at low speed, excellent traction control, and 4WD that makes the Tesla Model S perform better from 0-60 than other cars you may be thinking of that are rated at/near 463hp.

aw cmon, let's not go over this again. From whence do you think the torque comes. Most of the deceived group here acknowledge that, and feel wronged in high speed performance, not launch.

 

[vgrinshpun]

This is absolutely wrong. The motor power rating has nothing to do with the 0-60 performance. The actual power produced by the motors during the 0-60 run is what is responsible. At no time during 0-60 do the motors produce anything close to their "rated power". Please stop with this FUD.

If you want to be accurate, it is superior high torque at low speed, excellent traction control, and 4WD that makes the Tesla Model S perform better from 0-60 than other cars you may be thinking of that are rated at/near 463hp.

It is not wrong. The explanation is here.

The P85D with motors rated 463hp will be slower 0 to 60 than 85D that has motors with combined rating of 518hp

 

[LetsGoFast]

So what do you think will become of all of this LetsGoFast?

Besides another several thousand message board posts? I don't expect much else to happen. I suppose that it will have a very small downward effect on Tesla's sales due to a lessening of the word-of-mouth benefit they will get from some customers, a somewhat larger but still very minor effect if either the Scandi actions garner widespread press attention or if someone files suit in the US and it attracts significant attention in the automotive press. I don't think there is any scenario where this drama has a significant effect on their brand, nor do I think there should be.

I do think that Tesla could probably eliminate even that small downward effect on their brand with some kind of customer outreach, but I've become skeptical that they will do so. If they intended to offer some token to affected customers I'd have expected them to do so already.

The less tangible effect is that now many people are less willing to assume the best about them. If, for instance, no customer car ever achieves the performance advertised for the P90D, I think that people will react much worse than they might have previously.