We've several threads, this one alone is 174 pages long, because tesla did this. How wrong can you be?
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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
We've several threads, this one alone is 174 pages long, because tesla did this. How wrong can you be?
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Seriously? You have to ask a question as if Tesla did the ultimate wrong? Well, I'll answer it for you and it only takes two letters: VW. That's how wrong you can be.
Or to quote Tom Waits “The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.”
The problem and source of so much grief being the lack of even fine print, until very recently.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
The issue is not the number of P85D cars sold. The issue is the number of people that bought the vehicle based on the advertised hp number. That's an extremely small number.
This is also a completely different issue to the VW fiasco. No one wants a vehicle that is secretly engineered to cheat on pollution tests. In my opinion, the vast majority of P85D owners don't care about this hp issue at all.
Sorry Andy, not ignoring your question, just sleeping.
I would be very surprised if general public correctly understands the power and the units of measure of power. Power is a complex concept, derived from other more basic concepts, like energy and time. Most people understand time. Energy - probably less so.
People are likely to have some vague ideas of what power is. Based on such vague idea, they may form concepts about hp and what it means in different contexts. Further mental constructs/interpretations will relate to car hp or car motor hp. Without a clear understanding of the initial concept of power, all higher order concepts are likely to be even less understood.
Tesla can not possibly be held responsible for the general public level of understanding of physics or its concepts. It is not Tesla's job or obligation to educate the public in the aspects of product technology, but it is likely in their interest to attempt to do so.
I think that Tesla marketing of P85D was technically correct but not understood by many. Most people who do not understand certain things either just write them off as not worthy of putting the required time and effort to educate themselves or they might elect to put some time and effort in educating themselves on the matter - if they have the time for such endeavours.
Many car buyers do not care that much about car power simply because their understanding of car power is vague and their life is perfectly in order with such understanding. They know well what they want from their car and they get that without the clear understanding of complex concepts. They elect to put their time and attention into concepts that are more relevant to them.
Unfortunately, there were few people who understood the marketing message incorrectly and they tend to assign blame to Tesla for their mis understanding.
I also think that it might be an idea for me to refrain from telling Tesla what to do, it is pathetic, especially when coming from someone who gets bombarded on a daily basis with great ideas on what needs doing by someone else. When people bombard me with bright shiny ideas on how I need to handle a particular problem with no obvious solution and with zillions of constraints, my one liner response is: Great idea, go for it. What is stopping you?
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Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
In my opinion you can't possibly have an informed opinion about what the majority of P85D owners care or don't care about.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Why? Because I don't own one? Please just say that if that's what you are insinuating.
Also, I don't mind being attacked but please do so properly. I never provided any opinion "about what the majority of P85D owners care or don't care about." I provided an opinion on whether the majority of P85D owners care about this hp issue.
If you think my opinion on this issue in not informed, then I will cite you a source:
Tesla is now in mediation with 150 Model S owners in Norway over horsepower claims | Electrek
"Norway’s Consumer Council is now acting as a mediator between Tesla and over 150 Model S owners or about 25% of the ~600 Dual Motor Model S owners in the country."
There's a lot of talk in this thread about the rudeness of people who support Tesla on this issue (not that I do -- in fact, I feel that people who bought the vehicle based on hp ratings should be compensated) but in my opinion there is a lot rudeness on both sides. Just because you own a P85D and I don't (which you make clear), and your constant need to have people here prove they own one, says a whole lot about you.
There are a lot more VW owners who don't care than Tesla owners who don't. As for % of owners.. intuitively the owners who are short changed of 200+hp may be more annoyed those who have slightly more polluting cars. Irrespective, two wrongs don't make a right. Tesla had a change of heart after the VW news broke.. Before then JBS and his blog waffled on about how it's all not relevant and then an auto maker gets hit for something the car actually could do and Tesla suddenly feel it necessary to publish proper horse power numbers.
Though I own one, I don't see how it should matter one way or the other who else in this discussion does or does not.
Whether you are or are not an owner Canuck, I've appreciated reading your personal opinions as you do have a legal background.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort, and I wasn't being rude. I also can't provide an informed opinion about what the majority of P85D owners care or don't care about, since I don't know or have contact with a majority of the P85D owners. None of us do. THAT was my point!
I guess I don't see the distinction. If you are providing your opinion that they don't care about this HP issue you are, in fact, providing an opinion on issues they care or don't care about, and it is your opinion that the HP issue is one that they don't care about.
I am well aware of that source. We've discussed it before. I believe I pointed out that it took just a matter of a few weeks for that number to reach 25% from the eight or ten owners that began the process, once people started hearing about what was going on.
There are several problems with the conclusion you are trying to draw from that number. The first is that the fact that others have not signed on to the actual mediation does not mean that they do not care. They may care, but be waiting to see what happens. Additionally there may still be many owners in Norway who are unaware of the issue. I did not think that when you made your statement that in your opinion the "majority of P85D owners don't care" you were including those that don't even yet know an issue exists, because if someone doesn't know about an issue how could he possibly care about it? The assumption was "Of the owners that know about the issue..."
I do not believe I was in any way rude to you. You inferred something that was in no way implied by my comment, and are reaching a conclusion that I was rude based on that.
Before this I believe in the entire discussion, which has been going on for months, in all threads, I have questioned exactly one person as to whether or not they owned a P85D, and that was quite recently, and that was because that person, for a number of reasons which many here agree with, did not appear to be posting as a typical owner would post. Unless I am mistaken in hundreds of posts on this topic that was the only time I raised the issue.
There have been people on my side of this argument who have been rude. There's no question about that. I honestly do not believe that I have been one of them.
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Canuck
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I have a classic Model S without even auto pilot! To some, that seems to mean I don't get a vote on this issue. I never mind being challenged. In fact, I like it. But to tell me I "can't possibly have an informed opinion" without providing a reason seems odd to me.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
See above.
I could have been clearer.
My point is that without doing some sort of surveying, NONE OF US can have an INFORMED opinion about whether or not the MAJORITY of P85D owners care about this issue, because we don't have contact with enough of them. Essentially I was saying that the universe of P85D owners that we are in contact with here, on TMC is both too small, and not representative.
I could have spelled it out more.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Sorry, then, I took it in the wrong way. I guess seeing you say my opinion is not "informed" (in bold) seemed like a rude shot against me as a non P85D owner. You could have just said you don't agree with my opinion, rather than saying it was uninformed. But I see now in your explanation no offence was intended. No hard feelings (group hug!).
In any event, I form my opinions based on facts and reason. In my opinion, most P85D owners did not buy the car based on the advertised hp. 0-to-60, yes, hp, no (my opinion). Also, my reason (and opinion) tells me that the vast majority of P85D owners are not concerned with this issue. Once again, it's just my opinion, though, nothing more. I hope it's informed but perhaps not.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I appreciate that. Apology accepted.
I think there is a very good chance you are right about that. I can say that because the car has so many great features, and HP is but one of them. I have said many, many times that I am someone who most definitely did not purchase the car based on the HP.
All I'm saying is that we're both really just guessing on this. My guess, though, is that owners will care, even if HP was not the main reason that they purchased the car, because like me, they will feel that they did not get all that they paid for.
And on that last point we can agree to disagree.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
My guess, though, is that owners will care, even if HP was not the main reason that they purchased the car, because like me, they will feel that they did not get all that they paid for. And on that last point we can agree to disagree.
I don't think we disagree on this issue except if you say that a person who bought the car, without paying attention to the hp rating, "did not get all that they paid for". I'm of the opinion that in order for there to be a misrepresentation (innocent or otherwise) there must first be reliance. Without reliance, there can be no misrepresentation (or, more properly, a successful action based on misrepresentation). It is essential that there is some connection between a misrepresentation and a claimant's entry into the contract.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Well, in my case I knew (correctly or otherwise) that I was supposed to be getting 691 HP. I didn't know exactly what that meant, I wouldn't have known what that felt like, but I did know how it compared to the P85 (roughly 50% more.) So even though it wasn't close to the main reason I was buying the car, it was definitely a feature I wanted and was expecting.
To illustrate this even further, I have posts on here from long before any discussion of the HP issue started, talking about how I was first attracted to the P85D because it was the top of the line, and had the maximum HP. I talked about how at one point, when Tesla was saying it would not be available with 19" wheels, I had resigned myself to getting an 85D, because I realized that 21" wheels would not make sense for the area in which I live, after having done a little research. But I was, in my mind, "settling." I knew I didn't "need" 691 HP, but I knew that if I was going to spend so much more on a car than I ever had, I wanted the very best.
My point is that the HP was a factor, though not in the same way as it would have been for a guy like lola or wk057.
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