Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[stopcrazypp]

With two consumer watchdogs investigating, possible lawsuits pending and all the negative media coverage, you would think people would agree this is not great for Tesla and mistakes were made

You are talking as if those matters are resolved already. It'll be interesting to see the results, but we don't know yet what those groups will decide and how applicable the results will be in the region and across the globe (that the consumer group operates in a closed fashion doesn't help either: we don't even know how the official complaint is worded). In the US at least, despite the multiple long threads about this on this forum, there haven't been media attention about this proportional to it.

What matters is whether they fix these quick enough. Tesla used to have misleading prices on the order page (prices were shown after gas savings). They fixed that.

Actually they didn't. Elon is adamant gas savings must stay and their order page still has the price with gas savings subtracted at the top:
http://my.teslamotors.com/models/design

In a recent interview Elon said Tesla made lots of mistakes.

Elon may be referring to the contentious history he had with the other Tesla founder and CEO at the time, Martin Eberhard. I would rather not open up the old wounds on that.

 

[AWDtsla]

You are talking as if those matters are resolved already. It'll be interesting to see the results, but we don't know yet what those groups will decide and how applicable the results will be in the region and across the globe (that the consumer group operates in a closed fashion doesn't help either; we don't even know how the official complaint is worded). In the US at least, despite the multiple long threads about this on this forum, there haven't been media attention about this proportional to it.

Because gigantic threads with car people arguing about their power their cars make is pretty normal... It is not comprehensible to a journalist that a car that is as fast a Tesla with Insane (or better) mode could have a shortage of horsepower. That last "news" article this thing got was viewed by everyone else as a bunch of entitled whiny rich people whining. That's not me, that's how it was perceived.

Actually they didn't. Elon is adamant gas savings must stay and their order page still has the price with gas savings subtracted at the top:
http://my.teslamotors.com/models/design

Call me a fanatic but I never had a problem with this. It's underestimating the savings in my case by thousands. Like people that are paying 70k-140k don't know how to read or do math? People paying cash don't notice that the final bill comes out to 20k more?? People that can't scroll down 400 pixels to the purchase price?

 

[Auzie]

Most likely people on both sides of the arguments are not in the extreme positions. It might sometimes come across that way when arguing a particular point. It may be too laborious to keep responding to each inaccurate assumption about personal positions when arguing a specific point.



This situation is not good for Tesla. There is some bad will created with some loyal customers. Imho Tesla was lucky to dodge much worse public bashing over this. Not that I think it is deserved in this case.



The complexity of new technology and a general (public) unfamiliarity with electric power train and its performance characteristics makes the discussion of the issue in the public arena heavily skewed against Tesla.



It is effortless to read that Tesla hyped up hp to increase sales. Most readers can understand such claims. It is much harder and not many would attempt to delve into complex explanations that hp is just a unit of measure, that motor hp is relevant metric for electric powertrain and for the car's performance and to understand the physics behind that relevance.



Some customers felt misled after purchasing P85D. Tesla could have done a better job in being more clear with their specifications and forward explanations of the advertised parameters, especially in the context of selling new technology. Customers could have been more responsible in learning a bit about performance cars, especially electric cars, before buying one.



The situation now is such that the customers that demand some compensation from Tesla are in a position to use the publicity leverage to inflict disproportionate damage to Tesla. Some are not hesitant to use that power to inflict as much damage as required until they get their 'win'. It is easy for such situations to spin out of control. The only leverage Tesla might have is a corporate policy of not having a business relationship with litigants. That likely means offering a refund for the purchase minus depreciation.

 

[Andyw2100]

The only leverage Tesla might have is a corporate policy of not having a business relationship with litigants. That likely means offering a refund for the purchase minus depreciation.

So under these conditions Tesla would be forced to purchase the cars back at...wait for it...market value? And the "wronged" customers would, for their trouble, be forced to give up their cars, in exchange for...wait for it again...market value?

Sounds like a pretty good deal for Tesla!

 

[P85DEE]

Because gigantic threads with car people arguing about their power their cars make is pretty normal... It is not comprehensible to a journalist that a car that is as fast a Tesla with Insane (or better) mode could have a shortage of horsepower. That last "news" article this thing got was viewed by everyone else as a bunch of entitled whiny rich people whining. That's not me, that's how it was perceived.

And that's how it is likely to continue to be perceived. And really, I wouldn't even call these "gigantic threads". The total population in here, is comparatively minuscule when you look at some of the other car fora. I'm talking about makes and models which have been on the market for decades. Some of these big GM and Ford forums dwarf this one. LS1 Tech, for example, has over 250,000 members. And I don't now for a fact, but probably some of the Porsche fora dwarf this one as well. So the numbers in here are comparatively small.

Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum Statistics

Threads 47,186 Posts 1,219,858 Members 30,930 Active Members 5,599



Those are not a big numbers as big numbers go. And of the 5,599 "Active Members" you have maybe about a dozen or so, go ahead and call it two dozen, but that's probably very generous, who would fall into the category of both " highly vocal" and disgruntled on the horsepower matter.

And of that two dozen, most of them likely aren't in any position to do much more about this matter than they are already doing. And that's come in here and voice their opinions on the matter. They're probably not in much position to take it much further than that.

But you just stated why the hp issue will have a difficult time gaining any traction in the U.S.

The general American public is not going to shed a tear for an elite group of people who are able to afford a $120K+ car, a few of which are complaining about not getting 700 horsepower, so that they can walk down and stalk down most anything else on the highway from an 80 mph roll, when much of that same public is struggling to afford that Kia, or that Hyundai parked on the street in front of their apartments.

That's part of why I get a kick out of those who think this matter is going to adversely impact Tesla, or that this matter is going to grow legs. A Tesla is a luxury item that most of the population will never be able to achieve.

The median wage in the United States is $26,695.00 The median household income is $50,500.00

Any mainstream press the P85D horsepower matter gets will be perceived as a few spoiled rich people who got what they deserved. And that's for the 24hrs it even stays buried in the B section of the largest newspapers, before the next professional athlete does something else stupid to knock it out of the news altogether.

Call me a fanatic but I never had a problem with this. It's underestimating the savings in my case by thousands. Like people that are paying 70k-140k don't know how to read or do math? People paying cash don't notice that the final bill comes out to 20k more?? People that can't scroll down 400 pixels to the purchase price?

Agreed. And neither have I.

 

[Auzie]

So under these conditions Tesla would be forced to purchase the cars back at...wait for it...market value? And the "wronged" customers would, for their trouble, be forced to give up their cars, in exchange for...wait for it again...market value?

Sounds like a pretty good deal for Tesla!

That is my speculation and expectation, based on personal experience, not with cars but with other products.

Tesla might elect to do otherwise, but I doubt it.

Imho there is shared responsibility for misunderstanding in this (hp) situation, the potential resolution needs to reflect that.

My understanding is that Tesla already made some concessions to P85D customers with lowering the price for L upgrade.

 

[Andyw2100]

That's part of why I get a kick out of those who think this matter is going to adversely impact Tesla, or that this matter is going to grow legs. A Tesla is a luxury item that most of the population will never be able to achieve.

Any mainstream press the P85D horsepower matter gets will be perceived as a few spoiled rich people who got what they deserved.

Most of the population may never be able to afford a Model S, but many of them enjoy imagining that one day they will. And they won't enjoy imagining what it would feel like to feel ripped off. I think they will be sympathetic to "the spoiled rich people" because they are hoping to one day join us. They know they'll never be Elon Musk rich. The "spoiled rich" Tesla owners are still the little guy in the fight against Elon Musk. I predict the public sides with the underdog.

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That is my speculation and expectation, based on personal experience, not with cars but with other products.

Tesla might elect to do otherwise, but I doubt it.

Imho there is shared responsibility for misunderstanding in this (hp) situation, the potential resolution needs to reflect that.

My understanding is that Tesla already made some concessions to P85D customers with lowering the price for L upgrade.

My point was that if people just want to get market value for their cars, they don't need to involve Tesla. They can just sell their cars for market value.

Your post made it sound like you thought if Tesla lost in some legal venue, the resolution of the lost case would be they would be forced to purchase the cars back at market value. I'm suggesting if Tesla were to lose, a market value buy back would not result in any sort of real loss for Tesla or any sort of benefit for P85D owners selling, since they could sell at market value to anyone, so a market value buy back is unlikely to be the resolution of a lost legal case.

 

[Auzie]

My point was that if people just want to get market value for their cars, they don't need to involve Tesla. They can just sell their cars for market value.

Your post made it sound like you thought if Tesla lost in some legal venue, the resolution of the lost case would be they would be forced to purchase the cars back at market value. I'm suggesting if Tesla were to lose, a market value buy back would not result in any sort of real loss for Tesla or any sort of benefit for P85D owners selling, since they could sell at market value to anyone, so a market value buy back is unlikely to be the resolution of a lost legal case.

Being forced to purchase a car back at market value is a loss for Tesla that is proportionate to the offence, if they do lose in court, imho. They also lose a customer, that is a loss.

Opportunity to give a car back is a benefit to a customer that feels misled about the car's performance. Customer needs to bear depreciation cost because customer benefited from using the car. Nobody forced customer to wait all this time to request a refund for a product that he felt misled about.

 

[P85DEE]

Most of the population may never be able to afford a Model S, but many of them enjoy imagining that one day they will.

Well, to be fair, most people will never hit the Powerball. But many enjoy imagining the day that they will. And hearing of previous Powerball winners going broke doesn't seem to deter very many from playing it.

And they won't enjoy imagining what it would feel like to feel ripped off. I think they will be sympathetic to "the spoiled rich people" because they are hoping to one day join us. They know they'll never be Elon Musk rich. The "spoiled rich" Tesla owners are still the little guy in the fight against Elon Musk. I predict the public sides with the underdog.

Well, you and I see this quite differently.

In a nutshell, you have plenty of people out there who dislike Tesla, and feel that it would not exist if not for government handouts, and also dislike people who drive Teslas.

Privileged people fighting other privileged people usually results in apathy from onlookers.

Class envy in this country, is alive and well. The general attitude is that; you are "rich", if you have more than I have and if you make more than I make.

And if you have more than I have, well then I am hardly sympathetic to your being "ripped off", as I'm envious of you having it anyway. In fact, I get some degree of pleasure out of seeing you get ripped off......because you don't pay any taxes anyway...... And don't get me started on your $7,500.00 tax credit either. Also, don't get me started on Tesla getting government money that they aren't supposed to have.

So if they ripped you off on your horsepower, well then it serves you right for doing business with those freeloaders taking "gubment money" anyway. If they conned you on your horsepower, well then you had it coming for doing business with them.

Elon Musk and Tesla ripped the taxpayers off, and now they've ripped you off. Deal with it.

You don't have to be Elon Musk rich for me to be envious of you and to take pleasure in your being put to a disadvantage and taken down a peg or two.

Now, those are not my opinions, but they are some of the opinions of many of those who are yet to accept EVs. And some of us don't yet realize just how much both our owners and our cars are NOT wanted. Bunch of rich green peace vegans who got what they deserved, is how this will be evaluated. If they wanted horsepower, well then it's known that "there's no replacement got displacement" is how this will likely play out.

On a more direct, or personal note, and I'm speaking my own opinion now, I am extremely doubtful of the P85D horsepower discussion finding anything which could even be confused for a sympathetic ear among a significant section of the American populace, and American vehicle owners.

Sympathy, won't be the reaction from other vehicle owners, especially performance ICE vehicles, and those who dislike Teslas to begin with. More likely the reaction will be ridicule.

There are a few dynamics at work here which lead me to believe that a sympathetic public opinion on this matter, will not be so easy to come by. Especially as long as the cars perform well and solidify their reputations on the road. If the cars were sluggish and had a reputation for being dogs that couldn't get out of their own way, maybe....But not weighing in at nearly 2 tons, seating seven, and running well into the 11s.

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[Andyw2100]

Being forced to purchase a car back at market value is a loss for Tesla that is proportionate to the offence, if they do lose in court, imho. They also lose a customer, that is a loss.

Opportunity to give a car back is a benefit to a customer that feels misled about the car's performance. Customer needs to bear depreciation cost because customer benefited from using the car. Nobody forced customer to wait all this time to request a refund for a product that he felt misled about.

Well, now that you've clarified this, I guess it is just one more thing we're just not going to agree on, as I do not agree that a court case won by P85D owners would see them giving up their cars and getting market value for them. So we just disagree on this.

 

[Auzie]

Well, now that you've clarified this, I guess it is just one more thing we're just not going to agree on, as I do not agree that a court case won by P85D owners would see them giving up their cars and getting market value for them. So we just disagree on this.

Agree to disagree on the potential outcome. Not so sure that anyone is game to go to court over this, so the potential outcome may never be clarified one way or the other.

Tesla has such great leverage over its customers - they all love the car and it may only be 'pried from their dead fingers' as someone said here.

 

[Andyw2100]

Agree to disagree on the potential outcome. Not so sure that anyone is game to go to court over this, so the potential outcome may never be clarified one way or the other.

Tesla has such great leverage over its customers - they all love the car and it may only be 'pried from their dead fingers' as someone said here.

And I'm still hoping no one has to go to court because Tesla comes around, and comes up with something that works for most people. I'm an optimist.

 

[Auzie]

And I'm still hoping no one has to go to court because Tesla comes around, and comes up with something that works for most people. I'm an optimist.

Hey, I am happy that we found some common ground, I am an optimist as well.

Tesla has already come around in some ways for P85D customers

Imho Tesla people are likely on TMC, talking directly with customers, no need to go to court to talk

 

[EarlyAdopter]

These threads go on without end, so apologies if this has already been brought up, but these concerns have everything to do with gears and nothing to do with reported horsepower.

To wit, perform the following simple thought exercise: Imagine the Model S had a two-speed gear box. What would its 60-100 times look like then? 1/4 mile?

Now, imagine a Hellcat or RS7 with only a single gear. What would its 60-100 and 1/4 mile times look like then?

Ergo, the problem you really have is with the lack of gears in the Model S, not horsepower.

 

[Rupe]

The car is not horsepower limited--it is RPM limited. Who cares what the HP numbers are as long as the performance is there? Besides HP and torque vary depending upon the charge and warmth of the batteries. Thus the numbers are not fixed, just as they are not in an ICE car.

 

[lolachampcar]

Early and Rupe,
l've found I'm best served by looking at MS as a black box without regard for how energy is manipulated. I look at how much energy is being pulled from the battery and converted to kinetic energy. It is here that you can see how Tesla reduces energy draw during an acceleration run all the time while wind resistance is increasing. This approach eliminates the need to understand gearing and such which I think is only a distraction (based in ICEland).

 

[sorka]

You assume that SLS Electric accelerates faster throughout the 1/4 mile run because it has higher acceleration rate at every point in the race than that of a **floored** Black Series. This is simply not true. As was pointed out the fact that SLS Electric progressively outaccelerates the Black Series up to (and beyond) 100kph, while manufacturer rates Black Series .3s faster to 100kph than SLS Electric, means that Black Series was NOT operated at its maximum capability. This fact alone invalidates all your horsepower calculations because they are based on the assumption that the Black Series was operated at it's maximum capability during the race.

Um, yea because they were intentionally driving the Black at less than maximum acceleration in order to fix the race and let the Electric win. This coming from a show that has been very predominantly anti Electric. Between 70 and 100 MPH, do you really think they weren't flooring both cars? Really? If you have to believe the test was fixed, then fine. Believe what you want. And believing that is the *only* way around the fact that a 4700 lb electric car out accelerated a 3400 ICE car with 630 hp above 60 MPH.

Hurdle #2

The weight to power ratio does not uniquely define performance of an EV. The power/torque speed curve does. You either do not understand or choosing to ignore this, but I've outlined the way power/torque characteristics work for Tesla - you can go to my posts in this thread and review them. I do not have time to go into more details now, but I am going to prove it to you graphically, hopefully by the end of this weekend.

The peak power to weight ratio does not, but the power put down under a curve, not torque, from one speed to another does exactly defines how fast a car accelerates from one speed to another.

It's very likely that the Electric is limited in torque at lower speeds but not in power at higher speeds. We have a perfect example of this in the P85D itself. If you turn Insane mode off, the P85D still accelerates from 70-90 exactly the same and outputs the same power curve between those two speeds and outputs the same peak power.

Here's a P85D at 68% SOC in sport mode:

0-60 MPH 4.209 seconds.

70-90 MPH = 3.08 seconds

Torque peaks around 470.

Same car same stretch 1 minute later same SOC displayed but now set to insane.

0-60 MPH 3.421 seconds (remember we're only at 68% SOC)

70-90 MPH 3.07 seconds

Torque peaks around 720.

Drastically different torque characteristics between sport and insane mode. Insane mode makes 53% higher peak torque vs sport. As a result, insane is 8 tenths of a second faster than sport but 70-90 is identical. Heck even 50-90 is 5.17 vs 5.19 is practically identical.


I say house of cards because the SLS Electric was one of your two key lynch pin arguments as to why Tesla was valid and correct in simply adding up motor powers in a single combined number for a car that can never produced that number as it is shipped. You've pointed out multiple times that it was OK for Tesla to do what they did because Mercedes did the same yet there is 0 evidence that they did that. Is the video proof? No but it is highly suspect, as others have also pointed out, and certain key elements of that video make it very likely that maximum power in the SLS Electric is well above the claimed 740 hp. Mercedes claims 740 hp on the motors combined and 600KW (805 hp) from the battery. There is no evidence that they didn't achieve this. The fact that the overall capacity of the battery being 60 KWh does not make it unlikely that they could have achieved their claims.

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For the record, every time I've mentioned it (doubt that it was 485 times) I was right about the essence of this particular issue.

I have a list of reasons why that is entirely untrue. I'd be happy to post them for you

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In October 2014 on Tesla's website, with regard to the 691 HP number, if there was a link to ECE R85, or even a mention of it in the smallest print possible anywhere at all, then it would be relevant and I guarantee this conversation wouldn't even be taking place. The *fact* is that there was no mention of ECE R85 anywhere in any specs that a prospective customer could have reasonably obtained prior to ordering. Therefore ECE R85 is in fact irrelevant to the conversation. It doesn't matter what metric Tesla used to come up with the 691 HP number if that method was unknown at the time by customers and Tesla staff and was touted as the power produced by the vehicle by them and others at the time.

Edit: Actually, the earliest mention of ECE R85 I can find relating to Tesla is from stopcrazypp in August 2015, a full 10 months after the P85D was announced, and not from Tesla themselves.

A fact he continues to ignore.

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Being forced to purchase a car back at market value is a loss for Tesla that is proportionate to the offence, if they do lose in court, imho. They also lose a customer, that is a loss.

Opportunity to give a car back is a benefit to a customer that feels misled about the car's performance. Customer needs to bear depreciation cost because customer benefited from using the car. Nobody forced customer to wait all this time to request a refund for a product that he felt misled about.

Song-Beverly or Magnuson-Moss buybacks are at full original price paid, taxes, registration fees, and attorney fees.... essentially undoing the deal and making the customer whole. They don't take into account that the customer got to use the car. A market value buyback while the car is so new means the customer realizes a level of depreciation they never would have had to had they kept the car. Having to lose that much early and then buy another new car for the same price means they now experience that level of depreciation twice. I had a Corvette bought back as a lemon. This is exactly the reason my lawyer gave me when I asked why buybacks don't take depreciation into account.

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These threads go on without end, so apologies if this has already been brought up, but these concerns have everything to do with gears and nothing to do with reported horsepower.

To wit, perform the following simple thought exercise: Imagine the Model S had a two-speed gear box. What would its 60-100 times look like then? 1/4 mile?

Now, imagine a Hellcat or RS7 with only a single gear. What would its 60-100 and 1/4 mile times look like then?

Ergo, the problem you really have is with the lack of gears in the Model S, not horsepower.

More of the P85Ds 463 hp makes it to the wheels than ANY ice that also has 463 hp. This is true at any speed up to 120 MPH where the efficiency loss at higher RPMs starts to factor in. A second gear would have an impact at autobahn speeds in Europe but you'd have more drivetrain losses at speeds below 100 MPH. The P85D at 90% takes about 3 seconds to go from 70-90 MPH which is what you'd expect or even a tiny bit better than an ICE car with the power to weight ratio.

 

[sorka]

Top 15 posters out of 5436 posts:

    348 sorka
    294 stopcrazypp
    292 Andyw2100
    240 wk057
    217 vgrinshpun
    201 dsm363
    173 rns-e
    156 darthy001
    144 brianman
    128 lolachampcar
    126 P85DEE
     96 krisg81
     95 WarpedOne
     83 thegruf
     78 smac

I wonder what that would look like as a proportion of posts on this issue over total posts on all issues.

 

[wk057]

I wonder what that would look like as a proportion of posts on this issue over total posts on all issues.

Using data from the same pages saved the other day:

68.65 % - rns-e (173 / 252)
58.06 % - P85DEE (126 / 217)
31.07 % - krisg81 (96 / 309)
25.85 % - sorka (348 / 1346)
24.26 % - darthy001 (156 / 643)
17.47 % - thegruf (83 / 475)
11.70 % - vgrinshpun (217 / 1855)
9.76 % - smac (78 / 799)
7.94 % - Andyw2100 (292 / 3679)
6.55 % - wk057 (240 / 3666)
5.89 % - stopcrazypp (294 / 4993)
4.40 % - WarpedOne (95 / 2157)
3.79 % - lolachampcar (128 / 3374)
1.15 % - dsm363 (201 / 17414)
1.02 % - brianman (144 / 14152)

Edit:

That list above is just for the same top15 posters. A more interesting stat is out of all of the posters in all of the threads, percentage of posts on this topic:

100.00 % - Zetopan (6 / 6)
100.00 % - Wilcino (3 / 3)
100.00 % - Vivek (1 / 1)
100.00 % - Skeel (1 / 1)
100.00 % - Saturn-V (1 / 1)
100.00 % - RabidYak (1 / 1)
100.00 % - ITp85D (1 / 1)
100.00 % - Henrik_DK (1 / 1)
89.66 % - p85dk (26 / 29)
68.65 % - rns-e (173 / 252)
63.64 % - SDRick (28 / 44)
60.00 % - stilgar (3 / 5)
58.06 % - P85DEE (126 / 217)
55.93 % - Laserbrain (33 / 59)
55.56 % - Torben_E (20 / 36)
53.85 % - JonG (35 / 65)
50.00 % - SCI (1 / 2)
50.00 % - Gimlet (1 / 2)
50.00 % - Donsch (1 / 2)
50.00 % - adastra (1 / 2)
50.00 % - 691 (1 / 2)
47.06 % - Dwu0212 (16 / 34)
45.28 % - Hookmaker (24 / 53)
44.44 % - Kalllagtunet (8 / 18)
44.00 % - gavinwang (11 / 25)
42.86 % - legislator (15 / 35)
42.86 % - Lauz (3 / 7)
40.00 % - Theo (2 / 5)
35.71 % - whitex (5 / 14)
35.29 % - jarym (6 / 17)
33.33 % - YouShan (1 / 3)
33.33 % - PhysTom (1 / 3)
33.33 % - Nicksontou (1 / 3)
31.19 % - Dennis87 (68 / 218)
31.07 % - krisg81 (96 / 309)
30.93 % - eclipxe (30 / 97)
28.45 % - yak-55 (33 / 116)
28.38 % - DoctorJJ (21 / 74)
26.42 % - loco (28 / 106)
25.85 % - sorka (348 / 1346)
25.81 % - ProSkeptic (16 / 62)
25.64 % - falconeer (10 / 39)
25.00 % - whitebred510 (1 / 4)
25.00 % - idaten (1 / 4)
24.26 % - darthy001 (156 / 643)
22.96 % - WestCoastP85D (31 / 135)
21.84 % - Sad (19 / 87)
20.24 % - ERP (17 / 84)
20.00 % - lklundin (2 / 10)
19.57 % - JER (36 / 184)
18.75 % - duncanduncan (3 / 16)
18.49 % - Caligula (22 / 119)
18.29 % - Luclyluciano (30 / 164)
18.18 % - peteyswift (16 / 88)
18.18 % - mlindner (2 / 11)
17.47 % - thegruf (83 / 475)
17.24 % - ExhilR8 (5 / 29)
16.67 % - ThirdMartini (5 / 30)
16.67 % - MartinScorpio (2 / 12)
16.35 % - sillydriver (26 / 159)
15.38 % - mtco (2 / 13)
15.15 % - faughtz (5 / 33)
15.00 % - Mattias (3 / 20)
14.81 % - lphe (16 / 108)
14.29 % - _TTT_ (1 / 7)
14.29 % - EK123 (1 / 7)
13.56 % - mkspeedr (16 / 118)
13.33 % - hdsm (2 / 15)
13.33 % - DanKeen (2 / 15)
13.09 % - AWDtsla (75 / 573)
12.79 % - electrish (22 / 172)
12.50 % - EatMoarToads (1 / 8)
11.76 % - KyP85D (2 / 17)
11.70 % - vgrinshpun (217 / 1855)
11.35 % - Danal (48 / 423)
11.11 % - MSM (1 / 9)
11.11 % - BobV (1 / 9)
10.84 % - cynix (44 / 406)
10.00 % - Lanber (1 / 10)
9.93 % - kennybobby (29 / 292)
9.76 % - smac (78 / 799)
9.47 % - hpham007 (16 / 169)
9.38 % - Ldub22 (3 / 32)
9.09 % - Vuvision (3 / 33)
9.09 % - Rashomon (2 / 22)
8.97 % - gordo (14 / 156)
8.79 % - rainman50 (8 / 91)
8.30 % - Alipapa (19 / 229)
8.08 % - X-Wing (8 / 99)
7.94 % - Andyw2100 (292 / 3679)
7.69 % - P85DPB (1 / 13)
7.45 % - qwertzy (7 / 94)
7.30 % - Matias (78 / 1068)
7.14 % - tidalsails (1 / 14)
7.14 % - P85 (2 / 28)
7.14 % - JBourke (1 / 14)
6.93 % - Freudianly (7 / 101)
6.90 % - Niclas (6 / 87)
6.85 % - maddog1762 (5 / 73)
6.67 % - shrspeedblade (1 / 15)
6.55 % - wk057 (240 / 3666)
6.45 % - DillyBop (2 / 31)
6.44 % - LetsGoFast (63 / 978)
6.28 % - tezzla (23 / 366)
6.25 % - sowbug (1 / 16)
6.25 % - rjt65 (1 / 16)
6.25 % - Pete85D (1 / 16)
6.25 % - Kilowatt (2 / 32)
6.25 % - jcoverton (1 / 16)
6.18 % - Stoneymonster (73 / 1182)
6.10 % - kseitzberg (5 / 82)
6.04 % - bp1000 (9 / 149)
6.02 % - jimmyjohn (5 / 83)
5.89 % - stopcrazypp (294 / 4993)
5.80 % - P85_DA (4 / 69)
5.56 % - Eugene (1 / 18)
5.49 % - gnxs (5 / 91)
5.41 % - MikeBur (14 / 259)
5.41 % - jkn (2 / 37)
5.26 % - Trustno1 (1 / 19)
5.26 % - JBrown4390 (1 / 19)
5.26 % - jasonjax (2 / 38)
5.00 % - perkiset (12 / 240)
4.76 % - thimel (2 / 42)
4.76 % - dan-l (1 / 21)
4.65 % - SomeJoe7777 (4 / 86)
4.55 % - beun (1 / 22)
4.46 % - Chasedrgc1223 (5 / 112)
4.40 % - WarpedOne (95 / 2157)
4.37 % - llavalle (17 / 389)
4.35 % - ethune (1 / 23)
4.17 % - ch_model_s (1 / 24)
4.00 % - JohnSnowNW (20 / 500)
3.85 % - Juanmax (1 / 26)
3.85 % - CombatChuk (1 / 26)
3.79 % - lolachampcar (128 / 3374)
3.63 % - supratachophobia (21 / 579)
3.61 % - mspisars (11 / 305)
3.59 % - 3mp_kwh (20 / 557)
3.57 % - ReversePolarity (1 / 28)
3.45 % - kirkp (2 / 58)
3.43 % - jerjozwik (15 / 437)
3.30 % - joer00 (9 / 273)
3.21 % - eloder (15 / 468)
3.15 % - RAW84 (7 / 222)
3.12 % - ggenge (1 / 32)
3.03 % - Eclectic (4 / 132)
3.01 % - omarsultan (22 / 732)
2.94 % - LVSP85D (1 / 34)
2.94 % - Lintrix (1 / 34)
2.94 % - EV_Steve (1 / 34)
2.94 % - dogphlap (1 / 34)
2.86 % - Solarwind (1 / 35)
2.82 % - patrick42h (2 / 71)
2.80 % - freeewilly (4 / 143)
2.74 % - sandpiper (20 / 729)
2.70 % - jdbob (2 / 74)
2.70 % - cassiri (1 / 37)
2.67 % - aus (2 / 75)
2.63 % - 4us2bev (1 / 38)
2.58 % - Vitold (4 / 155)
2.54 % - Troy (3 / 118)
2.54 % - RobinF (3 / 118)
2.52 % - skilly (10 / 397)
2.50 % - Kingside (1 / 40)
2.48 % - scottf200 (20 / 807)
2.44 % - jdw (1 / 41)
2.44 % - CraZ8 (1 / 41)
2.38 % - rays427 (2 / 84)
2.27 % - clarkbariowa (2 / 88)
2.26 % - Auzie (35 / 1551)
2.13 % - Realist (6 / 282)
2.13 % - Rafik (1 / 47)
2.11 % - SherSlick (2 / 95)
2.10 % - Krugerrand (59 / 2809)
2.01 % - Soolim (10 / 498)
2.00 % - gvands (1 / 50)
2.00 % - fadkar (3 / 150)
1.96 % - Perfect_Flaw (3 / 153)
1.96 % - Dbitter1 (3 / 153)
1.92 % - pmppk (1 / 52)
1.91 % - PatD (4 / 209)
1.90 % - NorCalSJ (2 / 105)
1.88 % - McMuggets (4 / 213)
1.85 % - tcampos (1 / 54)
1.85 % - JunesongProvisn (1 / 54)
1.84 % - jpet (38 / 2069)
1.82 % - Brit4864 (6 / 330)
1.79 % - president_ltd (1 / 56)
1.79 % - marcad80 (1 / 56)
1.78 % - AmpedRealtor (69 / 3875)
1.77 % - heems (2 / 113)
1.76 % - fiksegts (9 / 512)
1.73 % - Olle (4 / 231)
1.73 % - Douglas (9 / 520)
1.72 % - EarlyAdopter (38 / 2205)
1.71 % - ScepticMatt (7 / 410)
1.70 % - 30seconds (11 / 647)
1.69 % - vvanders (2 / 118)
1.65 % - mobe (2 / 121)
1.62 % - jcaspar (9 / 556)
1.59 % - EnIgmA_BE (1 / 63)
1.54 % - Terra117 (1 / 65)
1.54 % - calisnow (1 / 65)
1.52 % - MacroP (1 / 66)
1.49 % - Pete90D (7 / 471)
1.49 % - Oil4AsphaultOnly (1 / 67)
1.43 % - OConnorStP (1 / 70)
1.32 % - brantse (2 / 152)
1.30 % - bhzmark (4 / 308)
1.28 % - LargeHamCollider (2 / 156)
1.27 % - Rice390 (1 / 79)
1.26 % - No2DinosaurFuel (4 / 317)
1.25 % - Xenoilphobe (8 / 638)
1.23 % - Zybane (1 / 81)
1.23 % - tomas (18 / 1468)
1.20 % - Kalud (9 / 750)
1.18 % - Rebel44 (1 / 85)
1.15 % - dsm363 (201 / 17414)
1.14 % - yoyo (1 / 88)
1.12 % - okashira (1 / 89)
1.10 % - DFiveK2 (1 / 91)
1.08 % - BrianC (1 / 93)
1.07 % - Wolfke (3 / 280)
1.02 % - brianman (144 / 14152)

Long list down to 1%

33 people on that list have over 1/3rd of their posts on the forum on this topic.
21 people over half.

Few one-post-wonders in there, but still.

@sorka - thanks for the idea

 

[Auzie]

Yes.
this is what this thread is about - religious war on tesla.