Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Andyw2100]

View attachment 101063

I must say, Auzie, I like Sorka's chances in the artwork, the way you labeled these. (I'm guessing it may have been accidental, or at least arbitrary, knowing where you stand on the issues. )

Sorka seems to be wearing full battle armor, while VG appears somewhat under-dressed for battle, and also very possibly under-nourished!

 

[Auzie]

I must say, Auzie, I like Sorka's chances in the artwork, the way you labeled these. (I'm guessing it may have been accidental, or at least arbitrary, knowing where you stand on the issues. )

Sorka seems to be wearing full battle armor, while VG appears somewhat under-dressed for battle, and also very possibly under-nourished!

But there is a bigger crowd behind VG...

VG promised some graphs, I waited whole weekend in vain, no sign of VG here....

The weight to power ratio does not uniquely define performance of an EV. The power/torque speed curve does. You either do not understand or choosing to ignore this, but I've outlined the way power/torque characteristics work for Tesla - you can go to my posts in this thread and review them. I do not have time to go into more details now, but I am going to prove it to you graphically, hopefully by the end of this weekend.

 

[wk057]

View attachment 101063

I must say, Auzie, I like Sorka's chances in the artwork, the way you labeled these. (I'm guessing it may have been accidental, or at least arbitrary, knowing where you stand on the issues. )

Sorka seems to be wearing full battle armor, while VG appears somewhat under-dressed for battle, and also very possibly under-nourished!

Hah!

On a side note, I keep ending up back peeking at this thread even though I keep unsubscribing since it's almost *always* in the first page of "New Posts".

 

[Auzie]

Hah!

On a side note, I keep ending up back peeking at this thread even though I keep unsubscribing since it's almost *always* in the first page of "New Posts".

Who can resist watching a great fight

 

[sorka]

And 485 of those were by vgrinshpun.

 

[lolachampcar]

Speaking of fights, thanks for Holms Auzie!

 

[P85DEE]

The numbers are interesting, if nothing else.

5,439 posts were made in those identified threads, which are among the largest threads in here covering this subject matter.

According to the stats for this entire forum, there have been 1,220,774 posts made on this forum. 0.45% of the posts on this forum, came from those threads.

Only a handful of posters are accounting for the bulk of the posts on the topic and this small group of posters can be divided into two "sides" on this matter and so the 0.45% of posts on this forum covering this subject matter, cannot be claimed by one "side" or the other.

There are 30,955 members on this forum, just 5,552 are what are referred to as "active members" and there is a top 15 of posters who have made the 5439 posts with the leader having made 348 of those posts, and the #15 member having made 78 of the 5439 posts.

So only about a one half of one percent of all posts in here are on this subject matter, and no camp can lay claim to the entire half of one percent.

With somewhere around 90,000 units out there now, and probably less than 10% of those being P85D's, it will be interesting to see how this matter ultimately pans out on a global level.

 

[Matias]

Has there been any new development in Danish or Norwegian cases?

 

[Andyw2100]

With somewhere around 90,000 units out there now, and probably less than 10% of those being P85D's, it will be interesting to see how this matter ultimately pans out on a global level.

I think you disagree with this, but I believe what is happening overseas is telling: a few Danes got the ball rolling, and as news spread many more P85D owners got involved. I believe there was a post that said a quarter of all the P85D owners in Denmark are now involved, and it's only been a couple of weeks.

It is my belief that the best thing Tesla could do would be to do something proactive to prevent what's going on in Denmark from happening in the US, Canada, etc. I know there are differences--the consumer protection laws may be stronger over there, the actual "infraction" may have been greater because of the bad translation, etc. But in my opinion those are relatively minor points, that won't have a big impact one way or the other. If Tesla allows the ball to really start rolling on this side of the Atlantic it's not going to be good for Tesla.

Again, I realize you disagree with this, P85DEE, because you think people complaining here will be seen as spoiled rich people.

I hope we don't find out which one of us is right.

 

[Krugerrand]

Sorka seems to be wearing full battle armor, while VG appears somewhat under-dressed for battle, and also very possibly under-nourished!

That's the typical way of looking at it. Or... Lighter geared means faster, more agile, quicker attacking ability vs lumbering and cumbersome (Jet Li vs Refrigerator Perry). It's also the little guy that's often overlooked, the big, brawny guy being overconfident.

Yeah, none of this is even remotely familiar to any of us. (*sarcasm overload*) The artwork represents far more than VG vs Sorka, but I understand that some can (or will) only see what they want to see and never look below the surface image.

 

[Andyw2100]

That's the typical way of looking at it. Or... Lighter geared means faster, more agile, quicker attacking ability vs lumbering and cumbersome (Jet Li vs Refrigerator Perry). It's also the little guy that's often overlooked, the big, brawny guy being overconfident.

Perhaps.

But not in the image Auzie used. Look what Google Image Search turned up:

 

[Krugerrand]

Perhaps.

There's no perhaps about it. You looked at it in a very typical fashion: bigger is better and badder. All the rest is irrelevant.

 

[P85DEE]

I think you disagree with this, but I believe what is happening overseas is telling: a few Danes got the ball rolling, and as news spread many more P85D owners got involved. I believe there was a post that said a quarter of all the P85D owners in Denmark are now involved, and it's only been a couple of weeks.

It is my belief that the best thing Tesla could do would be to do something proactive to prevent what's going on in Denmark from happening in the US, Canada, etc. I know there are differences--the consumer protection laws may be stronger over there, the actual "infraction" may have been greater because of the bad translation, etc. But in my opinion those are relatively minor points, that won't have a big impact one way or the other. If Tesla allows the ball to really start rolling on this side of the Atlantic it's not going to be good for Tesla.

Again, I realize you disagree with this, P85DEE, because you think people complaining here will be seen as spoiled rich people.

I hope we don't find out which one of us is right.

If Tesla didn't do anything wrong here Andy, and when I say "here", I'm talking about the U.S. and Canada, and possibly other places as well, then I don't see where they have anything to worry about.

They never stated that this car had "691 horsepower", and if they had, well then it would be unquestionable, and undeniable that they had a problem.

However they did not. They stated "691 horsepower motor power" and not "691 horsepower".

Now, if someone took Tesla's advertisement to mean "691 horsepower" as opposed to what Tesla actually stated, which was "691 horsepower motor power", well then a court of law will make the determination as to who is at fault. The consumer, for not reading what was plainly stated, i.e. "horsepower motor power", or Tesla for not spoon feeding people as to what "horsepower motor power" means and how it differs from an ICE hp rating.

If Tesla is found to be at fault, well then it would start the descent down the slippery slope whereby no other manufacturer in the U.S. would be able to advertise his hp numbers in accordance with recognized ECE standards. Lest they wind up in court too.

It really is as simple as that. And anyone thinking that they're going to lose in a U.S. court of law, because a few people bought the car without knowing what the term "horsepower motor power" is, is probably banking on a long shot.

It would be an interesting case, and one that I am almost certain that Tesla would appeal, and take on the expense of appealing it, should it somehow go against them. Either that, or simply start writing checks.

But there are those of us who have written, (and I am not taking a jab at you here Andy, so please do not take this comment as such), and who feel that such an action, will somehow make Tesla a better company in the long run for all of this matter.

Go figure.

 

[sorka]

However they did not. They stated "691 horsepower motor power" and not "691 horsepower".

And where did Tesla define the term "motor power"?

The consumer seeing "691 hp motor power" is going to assume that the car can actually produce 691 hp....at the motors as shipped and doesn't require a power source that is not shipped with the car. If they meant something other than this, they should have has an asterisk or some further explanation next to the term. I guess you've actually agreed with that already but the sticking point is whether Tesla was technically accurate or not despite misleading the customer.

 

[P85DEE]

And where did Tesla define the term "motor power"?

You're buying the car. Whose responsibility is it to find out what it means?

The consumer seeing "691 hp motor power" is going to assume that the car can actually produce 691 hp....at the motors as shipped and doesn't require a power source that is not shipped with the car. If they meant something other than this, they should have has an asterisk or some further explanation next to the term. I guess you've actually agreed with that already but the sticking point is whether Tesla was technically accurate or not despite misleading the customer.

A court of law will determine the outcome of much of what you are arguing above.

And as mentioned before, any ruling against Tesla, would be tantamount to saying that they were wrong to use an internationally recognized and accepted method for rating the power of the motors in their electric vehicles.

 

[sorka]

You're buying the car. Whose responsibility is it to find out what it means?

And just how was the consumer supposed to tuss this out?

A court of law will determine the outcome of much of what you are arguing above.

And as mentioned before, any ruling against Tesla, would be tantamount to saying that they were wrong to use an internationally recognized and accepted method for rating the power of the motors in their electric vehicles.

Um, no.

 

[Krugerrand]

And where did Tesla define the term "motor power"?

Is there a law that says they have to define it? However, when asked they did.

The consumer seeing "691 hp motor power" is going to assume that the car can actually produce 691 hp....

As adults we've all (most?) long since learned our lesson about making assumptions? Have we not? Especially when making significant decisions/purchases in our lives.

 

[P85DEE]

And just how was the consumer supposed to tuss this out?



Um, no.

Um, yes.

That would basically be saying;

"Tesla, we know that you've shown in court that the method, and wording, which you used to describe the power your cars makes, is a recognized and accepted method.

However; you can't use that method of describing your cars over here, even though it is an accepted method, because it confused a few people who bought your cars and who were unfamiliar with it."

Even if the ruling comes down as that, and I don't think that it would, then what would the damages be?

 

[sorka]

Is there a law that says they have to define it?.

There is. It's the FTC's "Truth in Advertising" which meakes it illegal to sell products through *misleading* advertising.

 

[Andyw2100]

There's no perhaps about it. You looked at it in a very typical fashion: bigger is better and badder. All the rest is irrelevant.

It's saying something that even when I was attempting to lighten the mood in this thread by making a joke about the humorous image Auzie posted, and when she apparently took it in the spirit the joke was intended, based on her response, you need to jump in and actually turn it into serious personal criticism.