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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

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I guess we need to go back to basics.

horsepower (n.) a unit of power equal in the United States to 746 watts

So, 1 HP is 746 watts. 2 horsepower is 1,492 watts. 10 horsepower is 7,460 watts. Etc etc. This is pretty basic stuff. I'll do the forbidden math here, though: 691 HP * 746 W = 515,486 watts.

The car is only capable of generating around 410,000 watts peak at the place where it can be measured at it's highest point, at the battery terminals. Losses, according to Tesla themselves based on their newly admitted legitimate rating, brings that down to 345,398 watts at the motor output shafts.

Tesla has used the 691 HP term without qualifiers all over the place, in writing, in emails, in speech, in interviews as well as appearing in 3rd party publications based on Tesla's advertising and marketing of that number with regard to the *vehicle*.

It is really sad that people don't understand this and continue to try and defend it.

My invoice from Tesla is for the purchase of a *vehicle*. I have no invoices that say I purchased *motors* from Tesla. The 691 HP number was marketed as the rating for the *vehicle* and can not in any way shape or form be achieved by the *vehicle*, which we later found out and a year later was admitted by Tesla.

This is pretty black and white. There is no gray area here, no room for interpretation, nothing. It's crystal clear. Tesla sold people a vehicle that was supposed to be a 691 horsepower vehicle that was actually only a 463 horsepower vehicle. End of story.


You'll notice I've not used the word "torque" anywhere in this post until mentioning it just now. Why? The torque output is not in question.
You may also have noticed that I did not mention 0-60 times.
You may be very astute and have noticed that I did not mention range.

I think a lot of people keep trying to obfuscate the core of the issue by bringing in metrics completely unrelated to the problem, and this is why we have a dozen or so thousand+ post threads on the topic.

I mean seriously, it's time for the defenders to rest on this. Tesla themselves removed the fake 691 HP number, and replaced them with the actual numbers. There is really nothing left to defend. It's like trying to acquit the man who already got fried in the electric chair weeks ago. Just give it up already.
 
The car did have a 691HP at the time it was sold. That is a fact. 691 HP combined. The problem is none of us can agree with what Combined HP is defined as.

Here is what I propose:

COMBINED HP: This is a new one. This refers to simply adding the front motor HP and the rear motor HP. This is what you see in the magazines and is a good indicator of value.

You don't have to agree with this definition, but at some point we all need to agree on some definitions, by voting on it with a wiki. I started one below (or above).

The fact Tesla itself did not use qualifiers is shady, but it did result in sales. After all the hoopla you can now see what Tesla did not want to have to conversation at the time of the P85D launch and did not state "Tesla HP"

The confusion would have occurred just the same if they did state "Tesla HP" but at least they would have been "honest" and killed half their P85D sales right?

This coversation had to happen, but just not at the time. Note we still don't know the full truth and are still making assumptions. You think Tesla wants the public to know HP will decrease as the car ages? Actually they do! Tesla has no problem telling the truth, but there is a time and place for everthing. The important part is Tesla never lied! You can claim they misled, but factually they did not lie.
 
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Wait, have we ever disagreed on that? You believe the P85D withe supplied battery has ever produced 691 hp at the motor shafts? We've disagreed on other aspects of this issue but I don't recall ever disagreeing on that one. Are you claiming that the P85D with the supplied battery has ever produced 691 hp at the motor shaft?
I put the part in parentheses to try to clarify, but I guess it was more confusing. I agree that the P85D with the supplied battery does not produce 691hp (that was my understanding since the dual motor launch in October last year). I don't agree that "nothing else matters".
 
The car does have 691HP

1369677160288.jpg
 
I guess we need to go back to basics.

horsepower (n.) a unit of power equal in the United States to 746 watts
...

Here's google's definition:

horse·pow·erˈhôrsˌpou(ə)r/
noun
a unit of power equal to 550 foot-pounds per second (745.7 watts).
the power of an engine measured in terms of this.
"a strong 140-horsepower engine"

No where in that definition does it say it has to be measured in the vehicle (or in reference to the vehicle). That is the main contention. There is no fundamental definition of horsepower that requires it to be measured in the vehicle.

Here's Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Engine_power_test_standards

SAE gross most notably is not measured in reference to a vehicle and it remains in use today (Ram Diesel Cummins, Mitsubishi Fuso Trucks). And in the Ram case they say 385hp with no qualifier or asterisks despite that.

I believe the point has been made before, if the industry was really interested in advertising horsepower in reference to the vehicle in a uniform way, they would start using wheel horsepower. That is the only true measure that the consumer sees.

I mean seriously, it's time for the defenders to rest on this. Tesla themselves removed the fake 691 HP number, and replaced them with the actual numbers. There is really nothing left to defend. It's like trying to acquit the man who already got fried in the electric chair weeks ago. Just give it up already.
Tesla removed the 691hp number in May response to complaints it was misleading. That apparently didn't satisfy people, given Tesla kept the individual numbers and anyone that knows how to add can still derive the combined number. The individual numbers still remain on the website today. The point being argued is that both measurement standards (motor power and battery-limited) are valid. You are of the opinion that the 691hp number was never valid (was "fake"), and many disagree. Also do note that the rear motor 503hp motor power number alone is already larger than the 463hp battery-limited number, so Tesla is still insisting that a "motor power" is a valid measurement.
 
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Tesla did clarify it in its blog post. The fact that some people don't like their clarification, or don't accept it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

More importantly, this is a forum. People like to talk (or write) about these things. Telling people they should be "sitting back" instead of posting here would sure make this a boring forum. I also find it ironic that if this is your position that you don't take your own advice.

With regard to blacklisting, I brought it up and it wasn't for people "asking a few legitimate questions". You can't just make things up and then call it "playground stuff". My comments were only in relation to people who sued Tesla. That shouldn't even be a concern to those people since who would want to buy a car from a company they have sued? And if it's playground stuff, then Tesla plays in that playground since they did it before and they could easily do it again:

Tesla Model X Cancellation

Yeah, but why didn't they just say "463 battery limited motor shaft power" to begin with or instead of a wordy blog post (love you, JB, but it was)? Put another way, after that blogpost did anyone know for sure it was 463?

I think everyone here agrees that after gazillions of posts this thing has been beat to death. I mean can anyone really shed more light on this, or put an end to it, other than Tesla? By "sitting back" I meant, would you rather see another post, anywhere, from Andy or sorka or wk or lolachamp or vshprun (spelling off top of my head) or some definitive statement from Tesla on how they are going to address this? Speaking for myself, if Tesla said, "We've read your complaints, understand that our marketing was misleading and are working to be as transparent as possible on the capabilities of our cars in comparison with each other," it would go a long, long way...

Re: the blacklist comments, these are just the impressions I got from several posts -- "if you have an issue with our product, blacklist for you". Sure, all bets are off once litigation starts.
 
this whole conversation is going to continue to devolve as no one is willing to sit down and write a dictionary for our use only.

This is like the RMS Power debate which has been going on for 40 years with no end in sight! RMS Power is widely used to sell amplifiers while RMS Power is actually a misnomer. There is no such thing as RMS Watts or Watts RMS but that does not stop anyone from using it. The confusion was actually created by the government as a law referred to RMS Power.

I have a feeling the same thing is going to happen with Combined HP. We did not create Combined HP but we have to accept the fact it is now in wide use.

If you simply state HP with no qualifiers you will never be able to come to any sort of agreement. This is only going to get worse when we have 1400HP Combined (4 motors for AWD torque vectoring and higher continous power handling) but still maybe only 700HP Battery. Tesla would be crazy to put Battery HP or "Telsa HP" front and center.
 
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Speaking for myself, if Tesla said, "We've read your complaints, understand that our marketing was misleading and are working to be as transparent as possible on the capabilities of our cars in comparison with each other," it would go a long, long way...

Re: the blacklist comments, these are just the impressions I got from several posts -- "if you have an issue with our product, blacklist for you". Sure, all bets are off once litigation starts.

I feel similarly, and addition I also accept that the car performs better than a typical 463HP car because of the way that the motors function. I'm happy with the car and am not asking for anything.

The problem is that there are a number of folks who most definitely don't feel that way, who want some sort of financial redress. These folks have sent letters, threatened lawyers and even involved lawyers (in Europe for sure and maybe elsewhere). And so that changes the whole dynamic. A "so-sorry we've made an error" letter becomes impossible once lawyers are circling.
 
Flatthill, to be blunt I don't give a rats A** about your trying to blur it all up. Tesla SOLD me a vehicle with 691 HP's - now they say it only has 463! WTF! NOBODY pulls this trick on me without having to stand to attention for their crime! Period!
 
they sold you a vehicle with 691 HP combined. You never knew the actual battery limited HP. Pretty shady right. You have a right to be angry, but the point is you did receive a vehicle with 691 HP. I am sure you will still win a lawsuit as you feel you were misled (maybe rightly so, not up to me to decide), but the fact is Tesla never lied. If they told you it had 691HP, it was the truth. 691 HP Combined. By not saying combined they were not telling the whole truth, but they were not lying.

When a car magazine write the P90D has 762HP that are not wrong. It has 762HP combined.
 
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[...]
This is pretty black and white. There is no gray area here, no room for interpretation, nothing. It's crystal clear. Tesla sold people a vehicle that was supposed to be a 691 horsepower vehicle that was actually only a 463 horsepower vehicle. End of story.


You'll notice I've not used the word "torque" anywhere in this post until mentioning it just now. Why? The torque output is not in question.
You may also have noticed that I did not mention 0-60 times.
You may be very astute and have noticed that I did not mention range.

I think a lot of people keep trying to obfuscate the core of the issue by bringing in metrics completely unrelated to the problem, and this is why we have a dozen or so thousand+ post threads on the topic.

Well said. While we know that the torque curve is different between the small and large motors (which explains off the line acceleration), it does not change the issue : an HP rating, whether it is rated at the Crank, Wheels for from the Battery stays an HP rating. You can say it anyway you like, yes the car is equipped with ~700hp of motor power, yes that makes it faster than 600hp of motor but the fact to the matter is it never delivers this power and is battery limited.

Maybe this will help people who are not quite sure what we're referring to here :

Warning : done in MSPaint in 5min. Numbers are totally bogus, it's not to scale and does not represent reality (it's much more complicated than that but it's only to make a point) :

HPcompare.png


Blue Line : Fake 85D HP
Red Line : Fake P85D HP
Dotted = over battery performance : limited somehow by Inverter, circuitry, fuse, cells, whatever
Yellow zone : advantage of P85D over 85D.

As you can see, because the red line has a steeper curve, it creates more area under itself (which is power). The angle of the curve represents torque. The bigger motor has more torque hence the steeper angle.

In my opinion, that's the reason why they decided to use the "691hp" number. Even if it's in the dotted line, it represents the higher torque of the motor. Was it a good idea? I don't think so. That's why the only good way to estimate the performance of a car is to have a Torque and HP graph (with the knowledge of the weight and gearing)

Instead of marketing the big HP claim, they should have shown the world dyno graphs or acceleration Gs graph! While non-enthusiast won't understand what they are seeing, nobody "in the know" would feel cheated and I think it's the big issue here.


For reference torque would look something like that (again, in theory, not real world, especially the start!)
TorqueCompare.png



Example of something they could do (found on the web, don't know who made it) Yellow line is definitely en EV and white line an ICE. Y axis is torque at the wheels.
GearVSNogear.png


So... does the P85D produce 691HP, no. You can twist the number any way you like, it never produces that amount of power. Does having a higher rated HP motor increases power even if the max power is battery limited : yes but as WK057 has stated, it's not the issue here.
 
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Flatthill, to be blunt I don't give a rats A** about your trying to blur it all up. Tesla SOLD me a vehicle with 691 HP's - now they say it only has 463! WTF! NOBODY pulls this trick on me without having to stand to attention for their crime! Period!

Crime? They sold you 691 hp motor power. Not 691hp. There is apparently a difference.
 
Agree 100% from a technical perspective. Does it matter? That's a personal choice.

For sure. My previous ride was a Volvo S60 T6. When I bought my 85D (was rated at 376HP at the time) I knew I was getting a car that was slightly faster of line but because of the gearing and torque characteristics of AC induction motors at high speed, that would be comparable or slower at highway speed.

Remember it was October and no non-P dual motor cars were available for test drive. Got the car and it was as expected : a bit underwhelming at high speed. But hey, I was expecting that. If they would have rated the car at 518hp (combined motor hp!), lets just say that my expectations would have been VERY different.
 
No - It - Does - Not.

Only if we agree to use the combined HP figure that is stated in the magazines

I don't agree combined HP is simply the front motor HP spec + rear motor HP spec, but that is the referenced useage, so that is what I have defined it as (we have to start somewhere). If you want to define it as something else, then please update and repost the wiki I have started and we can upvote/downvote definitions.

If we don't agree to any sort of definitions we will continue to go around in circles. Simply disagreeing does nothing to help.


---------BEGIN HP WIKI----------

HP: Horsepower. A unit measure of power (the rate at which work is done). The definition of HP varies depending on geographical regions but here at the Tesla Club we all agree 1 HP = 745.699872 W. [STATUS +1]

REAL HP:
This is a misnomer. Real HP is simply HP. [STATUS +1]

SHAFT HP:
This is the HP at the shaft. Typically when shaft HP is stated we actually mean peak shaft HP. [STATUS +1]

PEAK SHAFT HP:
This is the maximum HP as measured at the shaft. This does not tell you what is limiting the HP. [STATUS +1]

CONTINUOUS SHAFT HP:
This one is all over the place with many different standards when dealing with electric motors. [STATUS +1]

MOTOR HP:
This is how Tesla states the Peak Shaft HP of each individual motor front and rear. [STATUS +1]

COMBINED HP:
This is a new one. This refers to simply adding the front motor HP and the rear motor HP. This is what you see in the magazines and is a good indicator of value. (this definition has been down voted by one member) [STATUS +0]

TESLA HP:
Battery limited maximum combined shaft power at one wheel speed. We are guessing this is at 100% charge. Tesla HP may decrease with decreasing charge. Tesla HP may decrease with increasing motor temperature. Tesla HP may decrease with decreasing battery temperature. Tesla HP may decrease with increasing controller temperature. [STATUS +1]

CONTINUOUS TESLA HP:
[STATUS N/A]

BATTERY HP:
This is the maximum power output of the battery. Peak Battery HP is higher than Tesla HP as Tesla HP includes motor and controller losses. Battery HP will decrease with decreasing charge. Batter HP will decrease with decreasing temperature. Battery HP will decrease with calendar aging. [STATUS +1]

CONTINUOUS BATTERY HP:
[STATUS N/A]

FRONT WHEEL HP:
[STATUS N/A]

REAR WHEEL HP:
[STATUS N/A]

COMBINED WHEEL HP:
[STATUS N/A]

-----------END HP WIKI---------------

HP WIKI STATUS: NO AGREEMENT, INCOMPLETE

 
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btw, I forgot to mention something : where does the 691hp comes from? My guess : Since both the small and large motor have different torque curves, the HP does not peak at the same time. Adding peaks does not work hence 503 + 259 != 691

Again, bogus curves, no scale, etc etc :

PeakCombined.png


You cannot add the Red peak value to the green peak value, it does not work that way. You need to stack both curves as a stacked area graph and the resulting top line is probably where the 691HP comes from.
 
Again read the current definition of combined HP. If you disagree change it and add a new type of combined HP so we can still reference what we mean by simply adding the front and rear motor hp as everyone has already done.

EXAMPLE

MT COMBINED HP: tHIS IS HOW CAR MAGS SUCH AS MOTOR TREND CALCULATE COMBINED HP. THEY ARE RETARDOIDS

TC COMBINED HP: BLAH BLACH BLAH BLUP. THIS IS HOW WE AT THE TESLA CLUB CALCULATE COMBINED HP.

I don't care what the definition is myself as long as we vote on it. Please evolve the format of the HP WIKI.
 
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