Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[llavalle]

outright mastery of the English langusge

Talking of "language" ? kidding. But if my English is not perfect (I cannot tell if you were sarcastic or not) it's because it's not my first language.

 

[flathillll]

Moreover, battery capacity is not really "sold" as battery capacity.

In an ICE, you get 2 ratings : miles per gallons, number of usable gallons in the fuel tank. With them you can calculate your range.

In a Tesla, you get the range and the Total capacity of the battery. You don't need to calculate anything, the car is rated for X range. They also give you the power consumption. With it, you can deduce usable capacity.

"Cheating" the capacity of the battery in the way they did with the HP rating would be saying the cars sips 300Wh per mile and the car has 85kWh available. Then people would extrapolate 283miles of range. They did not do that! They told you the actual range of the car.

Are you telling me the P85D is not sold as having 85kWh?! Now we are really living in a fantasy. If you accept the P85D has 85kWh, then you MUST accept the fact the first P85D had 691HP. I'm sure many of you will never accept this logic. I know it sounds crazy, but you will find it is both true AND valid if you don't let your emotions get the best of you. I am not arguing you were not misled, but the car did ship with 691HP. You should be extremely angry the car cannot produce 691HP and those who feel wronged should sue, if it will make yourself feel better. I'll will be waiting for the verdict to be announced so I can invest more when the stock tanks.

 

[sorka]

The car has 691HP but only 463HP are usable. Thank you for proving my point. The first P85D shipped with 691HP.

There is no universe in which the P85D CAR has 691 hp. The drivetrain does if you provide a power source of 530KW or more.

The P85D *CAR* has 463 hp and 463 of it is usable.

Where can I get a P85D that shipped with 691 hp? Mine didn't.

 

[Stoneymonster]

/unsubscribe

 

[sorka]

Are you telling me the P85D is not sold as having 85kWh! Now we are really living in a fantasy. If you accept the P85D has 85kWh, then you MUST accept the fact the first P85D had 691HP.

Somebody is living in a fantasy land :tongue:

 

[llavalle]

Are you telling me the P85D is not sold as having 85kWh! Now we are really living in a fantasy.

Never implied that. I'm just saying that they are not just providing Wh/mi + total capacity (85kWh) and letting us figuring out the range. They are providing us with usable range.

If you accept the P85D has 85kWh, then you MUST accept the fact the first P85D had 691HP. I'm sure many of you will never accept this logic. I know it sounds crazy, but it is both true AND valid. I am not arguing you were not misled, but the car did ship with 691HP. You should be extremely angry the car cannot produce 691HP and those who feel wronged should sue to make yourself feel better.

I cannot accept the the car "had" 691HP. That's too vague. Did it ship with a combination of front and rear motors capable, theoretically, of outputting, somewhere along the combined HP curve of both motors, 691HP, with a DC source other than the supplied battery, YES. I don't think anyone here can argue this is not true. I also thing that it's the root of the issue(the vagueness).

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/unsubscribe

yeah, great idea. I think I'll do the same. What's the definition of insanity again? (I'm thinking about MY behavior here, trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result)

Thanks! (not kidding)

 

[cynix]

Are you telling me the P85D is not sold as having 85kWh?! Now we are really living in a fantasy. If you accept the P85D has 85kWh, then you MUST accept the fact the first P85D had 691HP. I'm sure many of you will never accept this logic. I know it sounds crazy, but you will find it is both true AND valid if you don't let your emotions get the best of you. I am not arguing you were not misled, but the car did ship with 691HP. You should be extremely angry the car cannot produce 691HP and those who feel wronged should sue, if it will make yourself feel better. I'll will be waiting for the verdict to be announced so I can invest more when the stock tanks.

The car does have a 85 kWh battery, and you can indeed use all of it. 75 kWh of that (or whatever the correct number is) will be consumed while you drive the car, and the rest will be consumed while the car sits there slowly draining the battery in brick protection mode.

The equivalent scenario would be if the motors were capable of producing 691 hp (which we know they are), and the battery could actually supply that much power (which we know it can't), but the car is software-limited to output only 463 hp as a form of brick protection, unless you flick a switch on the center console to enable "extra power mode" while acknowledging that doing so may reduce the life of the motors.

And the equivalent scenario the other way round would be if the battery housing is physically capable of holding enough cells to give you 85 kWh overall capacity, but they only installed enough cells to give you an overall capacity of 70 kWh. Oh wait, they've done exactly that, except they sold that car as 70 kWh rather than calling it 85 kWh!

 

[dsm363]

Remember that Hookmaker is one of our danish friends. So yes, he was indeed sold 691/700hp....

No mystical motor powers in Denmark

Agree. It was misleading in Denmark but still wouldn't consider it a crime. A little strong wording for what happened even there.

 

[P85DEE]

Talking of "language" ? kidding. But if my English is not perfect (I cannot tell if you were sarcastic or not) it's because it's not my first language.

No, I'm not kidding. You guys are good.

I feel as though I'm at the United States senate, or British Parliament.

This is awesome.

 

[flathillll]

The car does have a 85 kWh battery, and you can indeed use all of it. 75 kWh of that (or whatever the correct number is) will be consumed while you drive the car, and the rest will be consumed while the car sits there slowly draining the battery in brick protection mode.

The equivalent scenario would be if the motors were capable of producing 691 hp (which we know they are), and the battery could actually supply that much power (which we know it can't), but the car is software-limited to output only 463 hp as a form of brick protection, unless you flick a switch on the center console to enable "extra power mode" while acknowledging that doing so may reduce the life of the motors.

And the equivalent scenario the other way round would be if the battery housing is physically capable of holding enough cells to give you 85 kWh overall capacity, but they only installed enough cells to give you an overall capacity of 70 kWh. Oh wait, they've done exactly that, except they sold that car as 70 kWh rather than calling it 85 kWh!

Yes but 85kwh is not the useable capacity. useable capacity is well defined and it is much lower than the rated
capacity. if they were the same why would the useable capacity be ever stated. are you really trying to now claim the usable capacity of the pack is 85kwh since you can brick the car if u let it sit for two years after discharging it to 0 miles?

 

[cynix]

Yes but 85kwh is not the useable capacity. useable capacity is well defined and it is much lower than the rated
capacity. are you really trying to now claim the usable capacity of the pack is 85kwh since you can brick the car if u let it sit for two years after discharging it to 0 miles?

I don't think Tesla ever claimed that 85 kWh is the usable capacity.

 

[flathillll]

I don't think Tesla ever claimed that 85 kWh is the usable capacity.

no they did not that is the point. 85kwh is the rated capacity. the usable capacity is mfg dependent (see chevy volt) the p85d was shipped with 691hp but that is not the usable hp given the battery limits. this is not to say the usable hp will keep increasing as it already has with the fuse upgrade. the next gen pack may increase usable hp if put in older cars. how cool is that

tesla never claimed the 691hp rating was the usable hp either

 

[sorka]

no they did not that is the point. the p85d was shipped with 691hp but that is not the usable hp given the battery limits. this is not to say the usable hp will keep increasing as it already has with the fuse upgrade. the next gen pack may increase usable hp if put in older cars. how cool is that

The P85D shipped with motors capable of *handling* 691 hp. There's no *with 691 hp* or *has 691 hp* about it.

 

[Canuck]

Remember that Hookmaker is one of our danish friends. So yes, he was indeed sold 691/700hp....

No mystical motor powers in Denmark

Don't we need to wait for a decision still in Denmark to determine this? Or has it been decided already against Tesla?

 

[flathillll]

The P85D shipped with motors capable of *handling* 691 hp. There's no *with 691 hp* or *has 691 hp* about it.

yes they had (have/has) a 691hp rating. therefor it has 691hp. have is not really a good word as again it is imprecise, but here it refers to the rating

how can a motor have hp? a motor produces or makes hp. it can only have a rating

 

[sorka]

yes they had (have/has) a 691hp rating. therefor it has 691hp. have is not really a good word as again it is imprecise, but here it refers to the rating

how can a motor have hp? a motor produces or makes hp. it can only have a rating

The motors could be rated for a million horsepower in power handling capability but that doesn't mean the car ships with a million horsepower.

 

[mikes_fsd]

No - It - Does - Not.

Yes, it does.

Lets do some calculations based on the system parameters of the Model S P85D... and some googling.

Here's google's definition:


horse·pow·erˈhôrsˌpou(ə)r/
noun
a unit of power equal to 550 foot-pounds per second (745.7 watts).
the power of an engine measured in terms of this.
"a strong 140-horsepower engine"


No where in that definition does it say it has to be measured in the vehicle (or in reference to the vehicle). That is the main contention. There is no fundamental definition of horsepower that requires it to be measured in the vehicle.


Here's Wikipedia:
Horsepower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

further on...


Through Google I get that the nominal* voltage of a Model S battery pack is "375 volts" per Tesla spec (link Technical Battery Discussion | Forums | Tesla Motors )


to get 691 HP we need 745.7 * 691 = 515278 watts ~= 515kW
P = I*V
515kW = I * 375V
I = 515Kw/375V
I = 1374 A


From the July Ludicrous announcement we know that the OLD fuse can handle around 1300 A...

Tesla designed a new fuse with “its own electronics and a tiny lithium-ion battery” that can handle 1500 amps versus the 1300 of the old fuse. Tesla Announces 762-hp Model S, "Ludicrous" Mode, New Base Model –Â*News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

Based on that, we can say that the "old system" (pre smart fuse) has 691 hp "at some point".


What I am saying (before the corrections start coming in) is: the pre-ludicrous system (Model S P85D has the hardware limits of 691 hp).
From the call on Ludicrous upgrade... the focus on fuses was that the failure band is too wide and they needed something more precise+consistent... and you cannot get the consistent precision with passive material... so again smart fuse would actively monitor and blow at the set 1500 A limit... so the true limit of the old system is higher then 1300 (not claiming that it was 1500 pre Ludicrous) but because of the nature of traditional fuses they had to limit at 1300A to cover their bases.




* Now, one can argue that the 1300 vs 1374 is substantial (~5%).
All the calculations were with nominal voltage... we know from this forum that the peak voltage of the Model S 85 kWh packs is over 400V ( Model S Battery Voltage? )


P = I*V
P = 1300A * 375V = 487500 watts ~= 487kW
487500 / 745.7 = 653.75 HP < 691 HP


If we just do the same calculation with 400V... which is still lower then the peak voltage reported on this forum.
P = 1300A * 400V = 520000 watts ~= 520kW
520000 / 745.7 = 697.3 HP > 691 HP



So,

The car does not produce 691HP combined but it does have 691HP combined. There is a difference. Again we need to be very precise.

is correct, the system does have 691 hp...


In addition to losses from shaft to wheel, I think the blog post by JB Straubel highlights why it cannot produce the combined HP...

Also, the all wheel drive system in the dual-motor cars distributes available electrical horsepower to maximize torque (and power) in response to road grip conditions and weight transfer in the vehicle. For instance, during hard acceleration, weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle. The front motor must reduce torque and power in order to prevent the front wheels from spinning. That power is fed to the rear motor where it can be used immediately.

 

[cynix]

no they did not that is the point. 85kwh is the rated capacity. the usable capacity is mfg dependent (see chevy volt) the p85d was shipped with 691hp but that is not the usable hp given the battery limits. this is not to say the usable hp will keep increasing as it already has with the fuse upgrade. the next gen pack may increase usable hp if put in older cars. how cool is that

tesla never claimed the 691hp rating was the usable hp either

Again, the difference is that the 85 kWh is actually available in the car as sold. You could drain it down to 0 if you wanted to. The 691 hp rated power is not available in the car as sold. You'd have to rip the motors out and attach them to a different power source if you wanted to achieve that rating.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Time to make some popcorn. This is better than watching Steve O.

 

[mikes_fsd]

Again, the difference is that the 85 kWh is actually available in the car as sold. You could drain it down to 0 if you wanted to. The 691 hp rated power is not available in the car as sold. You'd have to rip the motors out and attach them to a different power source if you wanted to achieve that rating.

You cannot drain it to 0 (zero) within the system (i.e. driving the car)... the software will shutdown components incrementally to prevent bricking the battery.

But you can forcefully drain the battery by taking it out of the system, bypassing all safety measures for the battery and draining the battery.

But with that example you can take out the motors and connect them to a 3 phase 2500 A service and max out the (or even burn) the motors to your heart's content.