Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[JonG]

Not just from the standing start - from ANY speed.

Duh... One car delivers slightly more power than the other - not the 250hp you keep talking about.. And one is slightly quicker on the move, both cars faster than most sedans on the road up to 60...

Now... About those Diesel engines with 50% bigger torque figures than HP.. Are you going yo back away from that claim?

 

[P85DEE]

I said not even 1 second. Read. I've never heard anyone consider a 0.5s delta a "beating" either. A loss, yes, but a respectable one.

And from a 40 MPH roll the difference after 10 seconds isn't even a car length. That's a close race, not anywhere close to a beating.

It *should* have been a beating based on what I was told at order time, but it isn't.

I know what you said, and such a loss is hardly "respectable".

But then I've been in enough drag races to know that if I'm over a half second quicker than my opponent, and can trap anywhere from about 7-10 mph faster than he can, then it's not going to be much of a heads up race.

I'm looking at the quickest time thus far recorded in the 1/8 for a P85D 7.351 seconds.

The quickest time I see for an 85D over the same distance is 8.00 seconds.

So we're looking at a bests difference of .649 seconds just in the eighth.

That's no contest.

At a quarter, the best 85D time I see is 12.46.

I was running 12.4 back in 2003 in a 2003 Corvette.

A car capable of running 11.7 down to as low as 11.6, such as a P85D, would put at least a bus length on a car running a best of 12.4 in a quarter. A difference of 7-8 tenths of a second in a quarter mile. That is huge. That's the difference between running 12.3 and 13.0 or 13.1. Or 11.3 vs 12 flat. Not even close. And I'm not even bringing up quarter mile trap speeds between the two cars approaching a 7-10 mph difference.

Anyone wanting to test it, when this weather breaks, I'll spot you 5 cars in a quarter mile (i.e. 0.5 seconds) at the tree, in my P85D vs your 85D or 90D at a mutually agreed upon location.

 

[whitex]

In my experience, 99.999% of the time, when someone says "it's not about the money" it's about the money.

Hey Canuck, my father had a similar saying - "When you can't figure out what it's all about, it's about money".:biggrin:

I don't know what it's about for other people, to me it's partially about money but mostly about feeling duped to pay $20K more for a car that's 0.7s faster 0-60 and has 46hp more, by telling me it's 2.0s faster and has twice the hp of the 85D. What this whole debacle made me realize is that Tesla is just a car. I still like my P85D, but I'm no longer as enamored with it. I probably won't be buying the Model X next year as I was going to once it's actually available for a test drive. Nor am I as avid of an advocate for Tesla anymore (a coworker noticed that earlier today). It's a great car, exceptional service, but anyone asking about Model X I say wait until it's actually here, then read actual people's experiences, then decide if it's for you. Just because it says it has 5000lb towing capacity doesn't mean there won't be a hidden "battery limited towing capacity" footnote spec at some point in the future, and then a whole lot of people will defend it - "it can tow 5000lb, the hitch can take it, the motor can do it, the battery can only take it if the SoC is over 90% on 85/90 and over 98% on 70, but it's your own fault for not understanding that fact when you bought a Model X for towing - it's an electric car so things work differently". I can see the thread already "Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL TOWING CAPACITY for Model X".

 

[vgrinshpun]

Duh... One car delivers slightly more power than the other - not the 250hp you keep talking about.. And one is slightly quicker on the move, both cars faster than most sedans on the road up to 60...

Now... About those Diesel engines with 50% bigger torque figures than HP.. Are you going yo back away from that claim?

Well, you are trying to put everything what was ever said in a blender and then randomly pulling blended words to make your point. This would be quite funny if it wouldn't be so sad... You are grasping at straws.

Here is what I said:

1. P85D puts out roughly 47% more power and 47% more torque than 85D/90D up to about 30mph, which gives it 0.8s advantage in 0-60mph
2. At higher speeds P85D as well as 85D/90D power output is limited by the battery - 463hp in case of P85D, 417hp in case of 85D/90D.

So at any performance metrics from stand still P85D will absolutely smoke 85D/90D: 0-60, 0-100 or 0-130mph.
P85D will also beat 85D/90D handily at the variety of the rolling starts: 5-60, 30-50, 50-70mph, etc.

As far as your dinosaur engine examples, no matter what you are trying to make my point to be, it *was* that publishing motor rating of 691hp Tesla provided a reason for the performance metric that was a prominent selling point of the car - 0 to 60 acceleration, which is afforded by 686lb-ft of torque that the said motors can put out form 0 speed. The point was that presenting 463hp wouldn't convey the characteristic of the car that affords stellar 0-60mph acceleration - ability to put out 686lb-ft of torque from 0 speed. So how you are expecting me to back away from anything if your example involves diesel engine with 0 torque at 0 speed and peak torque available at the time when P85D had likely already hit 60mph (BMW 640d 0-60 mph is 5.0s vs. 3.1s in P85D). This is just preposterous.

So here is my point that you never countered: advertising P85D using 463 "real" power does not address and is not consistent with the performance metric that Tesla put forward, and the reason performance minded drivers choose this car: o-60mph acceleration. Period (full stop).

 

[JonG]

Well, you are trying to put everything what was ever said in a blender and then randomly pulling blended words to make your point. This would be quite funny if it wouldn't be so sad... You are grasping at straws.

Here is what I said:

1. P85D puts out roughly 47% more power and 47% more torque than 85D/90D up to about 30mph, which gives it 0.8s advantage in 0-60mph
2. At higher speeds P85D as well as 85D/90D power output is limited by the battery - 463hp in case of P85D, 417hp in case of 85D/90D.

So at any performance metrics from stand still P85D will absolutely smoke 85D/90D: 0-60, 0-100 or 0-130mph.
P85D will also beat 85D/90D handily at the variety of the rolling starts: 5-60, 30-50, 50-70mph, etc.

As far as your dinosaur engine examples, no matter what you are trying to make my point to be, it *was* that publishing motor rating of 691hp Tesla provided a reason for the performance metric that was a prominent selling point of the car - 0 to 60 acceleration, which is afforded by 686lb-ft of torque that the said motors can put out form 0 speed. The point was that presenting 463hp wouldn't convey the characteristic of the car that affords stellar 0-60mph acceleration - ability to put out 686lb-ft of torque from 0 speed. So how you are expecting me to back away from anything if your example involves diesel engine with 0 torque at 0 speed and peak torque available at the time when P85D had likely already hit 60mph (BMW 640d 0-60 mph is 5.0s vs. 3.1s in P85D). This is just preposterous.

So here is my point that you never countered: advertising P85D using 463 "real" power does not address and is not consistent with the performance metric that Tesla put forward, and the reason performance minded drivers choose this car: o-60mph acceleration. Period (full stop).

To address the issue Tesla post the 0-60 time. That doesn't mean they can make a big thing about a HP figure that it can deliver.

 

[vgrinshpun]

To address the issue Tesla post the 0-60 time. That doesn't mean they can make a big thing about a HP figure that it can deliver.

I am perfectly fine with posting 0-60mph and 1/4 mile times.

You were the one insisting on 463 "real" power.

There was a good technical (and regulatory) reason for Tesla to use motor power metric.

Ultimately, the problem is that innovative offering from Tesla does not fit any previously held notions. You can't compare this car and draw conclusions about its performance that are informed based on ICE technology, because there is a drastic difference between EV and ICE drivetrains. Square peg does not fit into the round hole.

 

[JonG]

I am perfectly fine with posting 0-60mph and 1/4 mile times.

You were the one insisting on 463 "real" power.

There was a good technical (and regulatory) reason for Tesla to use motor power metric.

Ultimately, the problem is that innovative offering from Tesla does not fit any previously held notions. You can't compare this car and draw conclusions about its performance that are informed based on ICE technology, because there is a drastic difference between EV and ICE drivetrains. Square peg does not fit into the round hole.

ultimately tesla posted information that misleads some.

the car acts like a car with 700+ lb/ft of torque from 0 rpm. Trying to extrapolate that to what max power an ice car would have as a means to justify 2 figures being added together and not clarifying max HP is simply wrong.

Diesels are different to petrol, turbo different to NA, EV is just another variant. The laws of physics stay the say. Cars have max HP at a certain point, max torque at a certain point. A 0-60 time etc and these describe the car, all of it factual. Tesla have played with the figures and added where addition is inappropriate, used different basis for stats when they want to and so on. This thread is a testimony to the dissatisfaction some people have.

 

[Auzie]

.... I spotted the truth and chose a 90D. ................

I hope you do not mind me asking, I am quite curious, how did you spot the truth?

 

[JonG]

I hope you do not mind me asking, I am quite curious, how did you spot the truth?

i drove an p85d and an 85d and once in the move there was barely any difference. The guy from tesla confirmed there wasn't. That made me start to look.

Then I saw the wording which was not typical around motor power

Then there was the max power drain on the move

The gaps started to fill in

 

[Auzie]

i drove an p85d and an 85d and once in the move there was barely any difference. The guy from tesla confirmed there wasn't. That made me start to look.

Then I saw the wording which was not typical around motor power

Then there was the max power drain on the move

The gaps started to fill in

Thanks. It is reasonable to assume that any other driver would be able to discern the difference after a test drive, and to spot the wording around motor power.

................. It's a great car, exceptional service, but anyone asking about Model X I say wait until it's actually here, then read actual people's experiences, then decide if it's for you. ..............

+1

Imho saying anything but the above to prospective X buyers would be inappropriate.

If people make informed, carefully researched and considered purchase decisions, and test drive before committing, they are more likely to be happy with their purchase and more likely to own the decision and the consequences.

 

[cynix]

Thanks. It is reasonable to assume that any other driver would be able to discern the difference after a test drive, and to spot the wording around motor power.

It appears that some customers did feel the effect of (what is now known to be) battery power limitation during test drives, but when queried Tesla provided a false explanation.

 

[JonG]

It appears that some customers did feel the effect of (what is now known to be) battery power limitation during test drives, but when queried Tesla provided a false explanation.

This is true - a lot was made of the restrictions on demo cars at speed and in discussion with staff not everyone told the same story.

The wording I'd read many a time and only when the performance felt similar and some staff say it was did I question it.

And let's not forget many people bought without a test drive like many are doing with the model X now. Without a test drive, and not all locations have both cars, you'd neither feel it nor see the limit the power meter goes to. The ONLY clue was the word motor against power.

 

[rns-e]

This is true - a lot was made of the restrictions on demo cars at speed and in discussion with staff not everyone told the same story.

The wording I'd read many a time and only when the performance felt similar and some staff say it was did I question it.

And let's not forget many people bought without a test drive like many are doing with the model X now. Without a test drive, and not all locations have both cars, you'd neither feel it nor see the limit the power meter goes to. The ONLY clue was the word motor against power.

I ordered early November 2014 and had the chance to experience a Test Ride Along in early December 2014 in San Diego. Customers was not allowed to drive the car ...

 

[lolachampcar]

Hey Canuck, my father had a similar saying - "When you can't figure out what it's all about, it's about money".:biggrin:

I don't know what it's about for other people, to me it's partially about money but mostly about feeling duped to pay $20K more for a car that's 0.7s faster 0-60 and has 46hp more, by telling me it's 2.0s faster and has twice the hp of the 85D. What this whole debacle made me realize is that Tesla is just a car. I still like my P85D, but I'm no longer as enamored with it. I probably won't be buying the Model X next year as I was going to once it's actually available for a test drive. Nor am I as avid of an advocate for Tesla anymore (a coworker noticed that earlier today). It's a great car, exceptional service, but anyone asking about Model X I say wait until it's actually here, then read actual people's experiences, then decide if it's for you. Just because it says it has 5000lb towing capacity doesn't mean there won't be a hidden "battery limited towing capacity" footnote spec at some point in the future, and then a whole lot of people will defend it - "it can tow 5000lb, the hitch can take it, the motor can do it, the battery can only take it if the SoC is over 90% on 85/90 and over 98% on 70, but it's your own fault for not understanding that fact when you bought a Model X for towing - it's an electric car so things work differently". I can see the thread already "Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL TOWING CAPACITY for Model X".

And this is exactly what people who defend Tesla's ability to use "combined motor hp" as their only (origionally) power value do not or will not accept. Sure, you can put together a trail that allows you to say "hey, here is the spec so I'm not being untruthful" and be absolutely correct. In the process, the customer is misled and trust is lost..... Trust is very difficult to build and oh so easy to destroy. Trying to blame the damage on the dumb customer that did not figure out how Tesla was able to do this before that customer took delivery of their car (and figured it out via the relatively anemic passing performance) simply misses the point that trust is already lost. It's water under the bridge and that water is long gone.

There are more examples. AWD is more efficient than TWD thus we can deliver AWD with same efficiency as TWD even though there is more weight and more motor related inertial and dynamic drag. My P+ averaged less than 280 W-Hr/mile while my PD is around 320. My P and P+ made rated range. My PD will not even though the PD's rated range is less the the previously mentioned two. Please do not try to blame it on my driving style (again, on the customer) as it is unchanged. Another example is the current P90DL real world versus magazine car quarter mile difference. For the first time ever, Tesla's production product does not meet (or even exceed) spec, Tesla is staying quiet and they pump out a magazine version that does meet spec.

If you wonder why the thread is not dying a natural death, it is because some who have supported Tesla for much longer than some of the defenders on this thread have been around are deeply disappointed in this change and refuse to accept others simply trying to white wash it away (albeit sometimes with very well thought out and presented logical arguments) or say it is the customer's fault.

:0
"Ultimately, the problem is that innovative offering from Tesla does not fit any previously held notions."
So let's solve this problem in a way that destroys trust with some customers and creates a much bigger and much longer term problem while simultaneously blaming the misunderstanding on the dumb customer.

 

[P85DEE]

Hey Canuck, my father had a similar saying - "When you can't figure out what it's all about, it's about money".:biggrin:

I don't know what it's about for other people, to me it's partially about money but mostly about feeling duped to pay $20K more for a car that's 0.7s faster 0-60 and has 46hp more, by telling me it's 2.0s faster and has twice the hp of the 85D. What this whole debacle made me realize is that Tesla is just a car. I still like my P85D, but I'm no longer as enamored with it. I probably won't be buying the Model X next year as I was going to once it's actually available for a test drive. Nor am I as avid of an advocate for Tesla anymore (a coworker noticed that earlier today). It's a great car, exceptional service, but anyone asking about Model X I say wait until it's actually here, then read actual people's experiences, then decide if it's for you. Just because it says it has 5000lb towing capacity doesn't mean there won't be a hidden "battery limited towing capacity" footnote spec at some point in the future, and then a whole lot of people will defend it - "it can tow 5000lb, the hitch can take it, the motor can do it, the battery can only take it if the SoC is over 90% on 85/90 and over 98% on 70, but it's your own fault for not understanding that fact when you bought a Model X for towing - it's an electric car so things work differently". I can see the thread already "Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL TOWING CAPACITY for Model X".

It's been my experience that it is never a good idea to be enamored of any car.

Given enough time, they will all disappoint you in one way or another.

 

[yak-55]

There was a good technical (and regulatory) reason for Tesla to use motor power metric.

Nope. There are valid marketing reasons, but no valid technical or regulatory reasons to represent the vehicle as providing power and performance that it cannot.

Ultimately, the problem is that innovative offering from Tesla does not fit any previously held notions. You can't compare this car and draw conclusions about its performance that are informed based on ICE technology, because there is a drastic difference between EV and ICE drivetrains. Square peg does not fit into the round hole.

Here we agree. The Tesla has different characteristics than your favorite comparison ICE vehicles. And that is precisely why saying "but it performs just like a 691 hp car" is misleading. What is the same are the physics of traction, torque, power, mass and time. The Tesla gets a lot of low speed performance out of its available 463hp. That's what the company could (should!) be marketing, not some phantasy "motor power*" figure that their potential customers don't understand.

 

[tomas]

.

:0
"Ultimately, the problem is that innovative offering from Tesla does not fit any previously held notions."
So let's solve this problem in a way that destroys trust with some customers and creates a much bigger and much longer term problem while simultaneously blaming the misunderstanding on the dumb customer.

Here's the problem. Once the mistake was made,,there's no way back. None. Any voluntary admission of culpability or compensatory offer is an admission of guilt that invites suits, etc. and would significantly impact mission. so, those long term supporters need to decide how many mistakes they allow tesla before abandoning them.

 

[wk057]

Anyone wanting to test it, when this weather breaks, I'll spot you 5 cars in a quarter mile (i.e. 0.5 seconds) at the tree, in my P85D vs your 85D or 90D at a mutually agreed upon location.

Make it my wife's P85 vs your P85D (Insane, not Ludicrous) both at 80% SoC (or less) with that 5 car lead and make it title for title and you've got a deal. I could always use another P85D, especially if you'd be giving one away like that.

(Spoiler alert: The P85 would win by almost a car length, assuming we're talking Model S car lengths and equal reaction times)

Edit: If you want a really good laugh, let's make it 40% SoC. The P85 would actually gain ground on the P85D after the initial jump. lol. With a 5 car lead, at 100% on both we're looking at maybe a 30-40' (2-3 car lengths) loss for the P85 in the 1/4, and it would take the whole race for the P85D to slowly walk ahead those 30-40' after jumping to maybe 1 car length back pretty quickly at launch. The added ~50 real HP would account for the slow walk, with AWD and added torque accounting for the initial jump.

Worth pointing out that this is completely OT and has little to do with the horsepower issue.... except that the P85D should absolutely annihilate the P85 even with a 10 car length head start based on the originally advertised specs.

I drive both cars often. The P85D has no real advantage at highway speed. If I'm in the P85 and I start messing with a P85D on the highway, and I jump on it at 60 MPH, then the P85D jumps on it 0.2 seconds after, the P85D wouldn't even be even with me by the time we hit 100 MPH. Depending on SoC it's possible it would never make up that 0.2s reaction time difference all the way to top speed. The P85D doesn't continue to walk away at higher speeds either by any significant amount.

And this is why the 691 HP number was misleading and useless. P85D has much more peak torque than the P85, but not much more horsepower. The torque is important for launches, the available horsepower important for everything else. The P85D lacks significant improvements of the latter. The P85D blows through it's toque advantage in the first second or so of a launch from 0. From then on the only thing that matters is that ~50 real horsepower advantage, adjusted as a HP:weight ratio for a reliable metric. 11.1 lbs per HP vs 10.6 lbs per HP... less than 5% gain.

 

[mkspeedr]

It's been my experience that it is never a good idea to be enamored of any car.

Given enough time, they will all disappoint you in one way or another.

I enamored with several of my vehicles. They are not perfect and yes there were several small disappointments but I am still enamored with them.

 

[lolachampcar]

tomas,
Agreed.
I'm going nowhere as the technology is too compelling. These issues are also small potatoes when you consider some of the stuff I have had to deal with in other car purchases.

I am paying attention to how Tesla is moving from production constrained to actually having to sell cars. They are good engineers but amateurs at selling cars. That is good for the most part given the way most professional auto dealers behave but the timeliness and quality of their communication is going the wrong way (IMO, of course). I'm sure they will get it in time but fear the amount of run way they will consume in the process.