Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Canuck]

Not doing business with a customer who is trying to sue you is standard practice, your legal department will insist on it. Banning customers who buy your top tier product because they complained that what was advertised was not delivered, that's a whole different can of warms a large business probably doesn't want to open.

I agree with this. Why did you quote me and then post this as if to rebut my position? I never once said that anyone who "complained" could, or even should, be banned. This is what I said:

I can't imagine why any prudent business owner would continue to do business with customers who sued, or threatened to sue. Most successful business owners didn't get to that position by being stepped on.

So I take it we agree on the above?

I wonder how many, out of the estimated 1600 P85D's (I think that was only in US) that were sold before the Ludicrous was announced (around the time the 691hp disappeared from Tesla's website) think they got exactly what was advertised vs. ones that feel they did not. It's it's only 1%, offer to buy back the car at full value - great PR for a company taking care of their customers (I bet those who would take the buyout would probably get the 85D as most of them like the car, just feel they didn't get the incremental value they were promised for the extra money). If it's more than 1%, maybe those customers have a valid point and Tesla could come clean (even privately) that they really thought they could do it but can't due to technical reasons, so they are doing what they can to make it up to them - also great PR. On the flip side, if the percentage is significant, say 50%, and they'd rather ban anyone who complains, can a company really afford to alienate 50% of it's top tier customers and not feel a hit? Especially that those customers are typically the best Tesla evangelists. A thousand customers to any of the other auto makers is a drop in a sea. To Tesla, in its current stage, 1000 customers is not insignificant. IMHO

The reality of business, and especially big business, is to ignore until sued. Then, if sued, aggressively defend. This is because the vast (and I mean VAST) majority of complaints and complainers (whether legitimate or not) go away. (There are also legal and insurance reasons for this too but let's leave it at that.)

People can hope and wish and complain and write letters and do all that other stuff, including posting in this thread on how they have been wronged, but at the end of the day Tesla will do nothing, and offer nothing, without being served (and I don't mean with a letter), and even after being sued, what they will do is aggressively defend and not politely offer to make amends.

Sorry folks, but that's just how the real world works, like it or not. I know, we all "wished" Tesla was different. Well, it's not. Get over it. The faster the better. It's much better to live in the real world than a "wishful thinking" world.

Oh, and before I get jumped on, I will add -- this is all just my uninformed opinion. None of it is fact and it's not being presented that way. I believe it's fact, and I believe time has, and will continue to, prove me to be right. But I'm sure the VAST majority of people here disagree with me and are looking forward to Tesla's offer of goodwill neatly packaged for them to open before Christmas. Santa is real too.

Maybe this whole thing is NOT about the money?

In my experience, 99.999% of the time, when someone says "it's not about the money" it's about the money.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

"In my experience, 99.999% of the time, when someone says "it's not about the money" it's about the money."

I disagree, Canuck.

100%

 

[Canuck]

"In my experience, 99.999% of the time, when someone says "it's not about the money" it's about the money."

I disagree, Canuck.

100%

That's okay. I'm in pretty good company...

“When somebody says it’s not about the money, it’s about the money.”

― H.L. Mencken

 

[chickensevil]

chick,
I wish I knew more to know how much back emf is limiting power draw from the battery at speed and how much the battery is being limited by Tesla for longevity. From threads related to the early days of Roadster, I got the impression Tesla was gunning for the gearbox to keep from building a motor that had such a broad speed range or at least did not have to turn such high rpms.

Thanks for the response. I guess we will find out more on that subject when Tesla cares to make a proper sports/racing/track car.

 

[P85DEE]

I agree with this. Why did you quote me and then post this as if to rebut my position? I never once said that anyone who "complained" could, or even should, be banned. This is what I said:



So I take it we agree on the above?



The reality of business, and especially big business, is to ignore until sued. Then, if sued, aggressively defend. This is because the vast (and I mean VAST) majority of complaints and complainers (whether legitimate or not) go away. (There are also legal and insurance reasons for this too but let's leave it at that.)

People can hope and wish and complain and write letters and do all that other stuff, including posting in this thread on how they have been wronged, but at the end of the day Tesla will do nothing, and offer nothing, without being served (and I don't mean with a letter), and even after being sued, what they will do is aggressively defend and not politely offer to make amends.

Sorry folks, but that's just how the real world works, like it or not. I know, we all "wished" Tesla was different. Well, it's not. Get over it. The faster the better. It's much better to live in the real world than a "wishful thinking" world.

Oh, and before I get jumped on

,

Thats not what's liable to draw the ire of some.

I will add -- this is all just my uninformed opinion. None of it is fact and it's not being presented that way. I believe it's fact, and I believe time has, and will continue to, prove me to be right. But I'm sure the VAST majority of people here disagree with me and are looking forward to Tesla's offer of goodwill neatly packaged for them to open before Christmas. Santa is real too.

That part in bold, and make no mistake, I do see the humor in it, it's what's likely to draw the ire of some.

In my experience, 99.999% of the time, when someone says "it's not about the money" it's about the money.

And in my experience, 99.999% of the time when someone tells you that it's not about the money, they'll insist that it's about the "principle".

BTW what would you like for Christmas Canuck?

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

One disagreement resolved:

Canuck, I meant "IMO, 100% of time it's about the money". :smile:

 

[Andyw2100]

Fair enough but as far as I know not a single question on this issue was answered directly by Tesla. Andy's letter was a result of this situation. And Andy, correct me if I'm wrong, but you figured that sending a letter directly to the mothership (and Elon) might be more successful in getting some answers since the effort put in by the P85D owners in Denmark and Norway got them 0.

I usually try to get caught up on a thread before responding to a post, but I'm not doing that this time, since this question is being directed at me. (I'll continue catching up after posting.)

At the time I decided to undertake writing the letter, there had been several people suggesting that someone write a letter to Elon Musk or to Tesla. The Danes had been posting about not getting responses to their attempts, and it sounded, based on their posts, like they were getting extremely frustrated, and were preparing to take things to the next level. I was hoping, apparently mistakenly, that we as a group could write to Elon Musk without it becoming "news." For the most part that kind of worked, I think at least in part because when it was picked up outside of TMC I cut back on all efforts to publicize the letter more within TMC. The letter has been referred to since then as an "open letter to Elon Musk" but it was never intended to be an open letter. I was really hoping that if we got Musk's attention, and that if he realized how serious a situation this was, Tesla might do something --BEFORE-- the situation got worse, which I thought was likely to happen if the Danes did in fact take it up a notch, as they eventually did. (I don't fault them for this. Tesla didn't really leave them much choice. I'm just saying that I was hoping to prevent that with the letter.)

Also at the time we started the letter, it wasn't just the Danes who weren't getting answers. Many people in the US had been asking questions, and not receiving any answers, for quite some time. For the most part, one could write to [email protected] about any other issue and expect a response within a day or two, but queries about this issue resulted in no responses at all, for many, many people. It was pretty clear there was a policy in place not to address questions about the horsepower issue. So it seemed writing to Mr. Musk made sense.

While we haven't received an official response, I have to think the letter probably played a role in the JB Straubel blog post, in the asterisk and explanation of the 1-foot roll out, and in the eventual explanation of the battery limitation on the HP the cars actually produce. I'm in no way suggesting that the letter is entirely responsible for any of these things, but I expect it played a part. So in that sense even if Tesla doesn't "make things right for P85D owners," as the letter requested, at least it accomplished something.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

I expect it to receive the Pulitzer Prize in the automobile forum category.

 

[JonG]

Repeating "inflated" "false" does not make it so.

Sure the 12-liter dinosaur accelerates quicker from 120-155mph and will sit there all day because it is order of magnitude larger than what propels Tesla. Nobody argues the opposite

Just to remind you, what Tesla based all of its marketing campaign on was 0 to 60 acceleration, not 120-155mph acceleration. That is why they used 691motor hp - because these oversized (as compared to the max battery output) motors is EXACTLY what is responsible for their claim to fame. As I mentioned few times before there was no good way to convey this in a one page marketing document, not because Tesla is evil, but because "bright engineering types", to whom some apparently feel aversion, came up with an innovative way to design and manufacture something that nobody thought could be possible.

you see you can't even get test right, I was referring to the 3l car.

neither is 12liter but I imagine in your world to get that much torque from an ice you can say it's an 12liter because it feels a more appropriate size.

the gearing is very different in these cars. The v12 6litre has been used in a suv to pull a jumbo yet - tesla can't.

but back to the point, you've made several posts justifying the combined power is legitimate because it acts like a 691hp car at low speed blah blah and you don't get ice engines with that HP/torque ratio. I disprove that and you can't answer.

the characteristics of an electric motors are different to ice in the same way diesel is different from petrol. Pretty much all the drag race videos have exactly the same pattern. The tesla jumps to a lead in the first second, they maintain the gap, the gap gets clawed back.

 

[dhanson865]

Q: 'How quick is your car from 0-60 mph?'

A: '691 hp motor power'

Q: 'How does 691 hp motor power tell me how quick it is from 0-60 mph?'

A: 'Ok, let me help you understand, the cars has 686 lb-ft'

Q: 'Still do not understand how quick it is, could you explain in a other way?'

A: ' Do you know how quick a Hellcat or Avantadore is? It's that quick!'

Q: 'Around 3s?'

A: 'Yes - 3.1s (whisper: if you subtract the time used to cover the first foot)

Yes - full circle ...

You are grasping at straws. You logic is strenuous and just does not work.

I disagree. I think his logic is flawless. He is showing how the inflexibility of one side of the debate doesn't answer the questions asked by the other. He is also showing how an average car buyer would ask questions and how useless some of the answers they get are.

At the same time it does remind me of Abbot and Costello and the "who's on first" routine.

Maybe if the "Tesla does no wrong" crowd weren't so inflexible it would seem more like a discussion and less like a failed copy of a classic comedy routine.

I don't think Tesla should lose money over this but I do think the poor communication from the D event and the website equals cause for confusion and complaints. Hopefully someone at TSLA is working on brand loyalty and customer retention because P85D buyers deserve a little hand holding of some sort.

 

[JonG]

One disagreement resolved:

Canuck, I meant "IMO, 100% of time it's about the money". :smile:

Not for me because I spotted the truth and chose a 90D. Maybe it's because I'm just trying to burst a few peoples balloons but I think it's more a case that I nearly fell for it and I have a long held passion for cars, a degree in electrical engineering and I do forensic investigations for a living so how many people have made the mistake?

No one has yet challenged whether the combined torque figure is ever deliverable...

Go to order a car today and in the order page (at least in the uk) there is no * against the 0-60 time indicating footnote and only at the end of a very long web page do they mention the 1 foot roll out. They're still happy to not be totally transparent.

 

[P85DEE]

Not for me because I spotted the truth and chose a 90D. Maybe it's because I'm just trying to burst a few peoples balloons but I think it's more a case that I nearly fell for it....Go to order a car today and in the order page (at least in the uk) there is no * against the 0-60 time indicating footnote and only at the end of a very long web page do they mention the 1 foot roll out. They're still happy to not be totally transparent.

Well no, you may not have "fallen for it".....but the truth is, if you line up next to a P85D from a standing start, you WILL get smoked. And it won't even be close. You will also "spot" the P85D's taillights, for a little while anyway, as it is pulling away from you. No matter how much horsepower a P85D has vs your 90D, you will get trounced.

Furthermore, if you run up against ICE vehicles, such as Corvettes, Mustangs, or Camaros, with anything more than about 350-400 horsepower, cars which a P85D can dispatch in short order, you're going to get smoked.

 

[gsxdsm]

Well no, you may not have "fallen for it".....but the truth is, if you line up next to a P85D from a standing start, you WILL get smoked. And it won't even be close. You will also "spot" the P85D's taillights, for a little while anyway, as it is pulling away from you. No matter how much horsepower a P85D has vs your 90D, you will get trounced.

Yeah but hey at 130 mph the P will start to stop pulling as hard, proving that it only has 463hp and making Tesla a liar!!! /s

 

[JonG]

Well no, you may not have "fallen for it".....but the truth is, if you line up next to a P85D from a standing start, you WILL get smoked. And it won't even be close. You will get a good view of the P85D's taillights. No matter how much horsepower a P85D has vs your 90D, you will get trounced.

Oooo you're the man... You're welcome to your car.

What you are really saying is that because a p85d can send more power to the rear wheels, and can deliver more peak torque for a nano second it will pull a car length ahead... After which they stay level.

I on the other hand will be weighed down by the extra 20k in my wallet and can drive further without charging and not suffer significant variation in performance depending on the state of charge. The ludi upgrade tests had the ludi car performing only as well as the motor trends stats girls non ludi car.

I have a couple of hundred grand of other cars in my garage I can play with when I want, a convertible for when the sun shines, an Aston Martin when I want to arrive in style or go for a cross country blast..

 

[wk057]

Well no, you may not have "fallen for it".....but the truth is, if you line up next to a P85D from a standing start, you WILL get smoked. And it won't even be close. You will also "spot" the P85D's taillights, for a little while anyway, as it is pulling away from you. No matter how much horsepower a P85D has vs your 90D, you will get trounced.

Furthermore, if you run up against ICE vehicles, such as Corvettes, Mustangs, or Camaros, with anything more than about 350-400 horsepower, cars which a P85D can dispatch in short order, you're going to get smoked.

Your definition of "smoked" and "trounced" are pretty interesting. You realize the P85D isn't even 1 second faster than the P85 (which is about the same as the 85D/90D) in the 1/8th mile (almost 0-100 MPH) with no perceptible difference past 40 MPH without equipment to measure.

With both cars at a similar and lower SoC the P85 is actually faster at speed than the P85D.

But the P85D has 691 HP and the P85 has 470 HP... so they must be pretty close.

 

[P85DEE]

Oooo you're the man... You're welcome to your car.

What you are really saying is that because a p85d can send more power to the rear wheels, and can deliver more peak torque for a nano second it will pull a car length ahead... After which they stay level.

I on the other hand will be weighed down by the extra 20k in my wallet and can drive further without charging and not suffer significant variation in performance depending on the state of charge. The ludi upgrade tests had the ludi car performing only as well as the motor trends stats girls non ludi car.

I have a couple of hundred grand of other cars in my garage I can play with when I want, a convertible for when the sun shines, an Aston Martin when I want to arrive in style or go for a cross country blast..

All of that is great. I own other sports cars as well.

But the bottom line is, if you bring that 90D to a matchup against a P85D, you're bringing a butter knife to a hatchet fight.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Well no, you may not have "fallen for it".....but the truth is, if you line up next to a P85D from a standing start, you WILL get smoked. And it won't even be close. You will also "spot" the P85D's taillights, for a little while anyway, as it is pulling away from you. No matter how much horsepower a P85D has vs your 90D, you will get trounced.

Furthermore, if you run up against ICE vehicles, such as Corvettes, Mustangs, or Camaros, with anything more than about 350-400 horsepower, cars which a P85D can dispatch in short order, you're going to get smoked.

Not just from the standing start - from ANY speed.

 

[P85DEE]

Your definition of "smoked" and "trounced" are pretty interesting. You realize the P85D isn't even 1 second faster than the P85 (which is about the same as the 85D/90D) in the 1/8th mile (almost 0-100 MPH) with no perceptible difference past 40 MPH without equipment to measure.

With both cars at a similar and lower SoC the P85 is actually faster at speed than the P85D.

But the P85D has 691 HP and the P85 has 470 HP... so they must be pretty equal.

Are you serious?

Do you have any notion how bad of a beating in a quarter mile even 0.5 seconds is? Let alone in an eight mile.

And here you are talking about a full second?

 

[vgrinshpun]

Oooo you're the man... You're welcome to your car.

What you are really saying is that because a p85d can send more power to the rear wheels, and can deliver more peak torque for a nano second it will pull a car length ahead... After which they stay level.

I on the other hand will be weighed down by the extra 20k in my wallet and can drive further without charging and not suffer significant variation in performance depending on the state of charge. The ludi upgrade tests had the ludi car performing only as well as the motor trends stats girls non ludi car.

I have a couple of hundred grand of other cars in my garage I can play with when I want, a convertible for when the sun shines, an Aston Martin when I want to arrive in style or go for a cross country blast..

They are not - because of the difference in "real" power - 90D has 417hp vs 463 in P85D. P85D will continue to pull away, at any speed, unless the so called "real" power is not so real. It is quite amusing to observe how you guys are trying to have it both ways.

 

[wk057]

Are you serious?

Do you have any notion how bad of a beating in a quarter mile even 0.5 seconds is? Let alone in an eight mile.

And here you are talking about a full second?

I said not even 1 second. Read. I've never heard anyone consider a 0.5s delta a "beating" either. A loss, yes, but a respectable one.

And from a 40 MPH roll the difference after 10 seconds isn't even a car length. That's a close race, not anywhere close to a beating. It represents the true power to weight ratios of both vehicles perfectly.

It *should* have been a beating based on what I was told at order time, but it isn't.