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Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells

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There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
IMG_1736.jpeg


For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
IMG_1735.jpeg



As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
 
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Start service mode battery test

I recently saw a battery test performed in service mode on a Y LR. The test said 97%.

The car has the smaller LG with 74.5kWh full pack when new. (These usually tops around 75 kWh nominal full pack).

Asking for a picture of the energy graph gave the information that the BMS capacity number is 69.7kWh.

The real degradation is about 6.5% calculated from the 74.5 kWh fixed number and even more from the usual top capacity, but that service mode test says battery health 97%.

I have my own opinion why we regular users ”accidently” have access to this function and also why it clearly lies us in the face.

One issue with drawing current very very slowly is that losses from incresaed internal resistance will not show up (losses are ~ increasing squared to the current).
Even if the test actually showed 97% capacity with low C-rate it can kot be reproduced when using the car, as we use more power.

I’d say that that test is ment to take the worry from people that use it by themself and finds the degradation much lower than the real one.
A fooled/miss led customer is a happy customer.
 
I recently saw a battery test performed in service mode on a Y LR. The test said 97%.

The car has the smaller LG with 74.5kWh full pack when new. (These usually tops around 75 kWh nominal full pack).

Asking for a picture of the energy graph gave the information that the BMS capacity number is 69.7kWh.

The real degradation is about 6.5% calculated from the 74.5 kWh fixed number and even more from the usual top capacity, but that service mode test says battery health 97%.

I have my own opinion why we regular users ”accidently” have access to this function and also why it clearly lies us in the face.

One issue with drawing current very very slowly is that losses from incresaed internal resistance will not show up (losses are ~ increasing squared to the current).
Even if the test actually showed 97% capacity with low C-rate it can kot be reproduced when using the car, as we use more power.

I’d say that that test is ment to take the worry from people that use it by themself and finds the degradation much lower than the real one.
A fooled/miss led customer is a happy customer.
But the car has direct access to the battery which surely is better than a remote app🤷🏼‍♂️?
 
I would like my battery to last atleast 13-15 years calendar aging, would charging to 80% everyday and discharging the battery to 55% allow this or do I need to start the 55% - 30% daily if I want it to last 13-15 years
 
I would like my battery to last atleast 13-15 years calendar aging, would charging to 80% everyday and discharging the battery to 55% allow this or do I need to start the 55% - 30% daily if I want it to last 13-15 years
Where do you live? Warm place?

The battery probably survives. The difference would be the capacity.
(Reaching 20% degradation will set the battery to the degradation where they might start to behave unpredictable and 20% is also the standard where litjium ion batterys are comsidered to be consumed and need to be changed.
You most probably could have the pack longer but afyer passing 20% degradation you do not know.

In a about average climate, you would reach about 20% after ~ 13 years or so, from calendar aging if you charge daily to 80% and the battery spend most of the time above 55%.
Probably about the same total degradation if we include the cycles, or only slightly more.
In the same climate, using 55%, or at least staying mostly at or below 55% will cut this in half. So,you have ~10% degradation instead.
 
Where do you live? Warm place?

The battery probably survives. The difference would be the capacity.
(Reaching 20% degradation will set the battery to the degradation where they might start to behave unpredictable and 20% is also the standard where litjium ion batterys are comsidered to be consumed and need to be changed.
You most probably could have the pack longer but afyer passing 20% degradation you do not know.

In a about average climate, you would reach about 20% after ~ 13 years or so, from calendar aging if you charge daily to 80% and the battery spend most of the time above 55%.
Probably about the same total degradation if we include the cycles, or only slightly more.
In the same climate, using 55%, or at least staying mostly at or below 55% will cut this in half. So,you have ~10% degradation instead.
It’s the south east so we have some 95-100 degree days here in summer, not extreme like Nevada or Arizona though that get like 110 - 120 degrees

Well I already have 8% degradation at 30k miles and 1.5 years if my BMS is accurate

Maybe I’ll start charging to 70% daily, I like having extra for emergencies that’s why I did 80
 
If we ever get solid state batteries will those be able to charge any kind of way you want to, like letting it sit at 1-10% charge for weeks or sit at 100% charge for months with no effects to the battery?
in other words will solid state batteries be maintenance free (not having to keep up with how you charge the battery)
 
It’s the south east so we have some 95-100 degree days here in summer, not extreme like Nevada or Arizona though that get like 110 - 120 degrees

Well I already have 8% degradation at 30k miles and 1.5 years if my BMS is accurate

Maybe I’ll start charging to 70% daily, I like having extra for emergencies that’s why I did 80
Because calendar aging is the issue, your aim is to maximize the amount of time spent at lower SOC (55% or below) while still having plenty of range for unplanned errands or emergencies. What I would suggest is to schedule your charge such that you leave for work with 70%-80% and arrive home with 50%-55%. This way, you have 12 hours or so below the calendar aging threshold (which I think is 60% or slightly below).

That is if you plan to keep the car for 15 years. Chances are in 10 years we won't even be having this discussion as the physics of calendar aging (parasitic reactions) are becoming better understood and will be addressed. Micro managing your battery may not be worth the stress. Check out Jeff Dahn's work for his 4 million mile battery and EV Battery Health with Dr Jeff Dahn Dalhousie U (highly recommend watching this).

High temps (as you experience) speed up chemical reactions including those that cause battery degradation. It's no coincidence that batteries are happiest at the same temps humans are. These are the conditions we experiment and develop in. Dahn now is experimenting with batteries at extremely high temps and having success. I believe he discusses it in the video linked above.

Edit: I found a reference to the high temp testing: Long-life and High-energy Batteries from Dahn and Meng

Dahn wants to go even further though. The ‘5-Million-mile’ cell above dies after about 4000 cycles at 55 °C. To develop extremely long-lifetime batteries, Dahn has been testing pouch cells at 85 °C for the past year and, with new equipment, has recently started cycle testing at 100 °C. Along these lines, their team has encountered a new electrolyte solvent, called DMOHC or dimethyl-2,5-dioxahexanedioate, that has doubled the cell lifetime of their best performing electrolyte combinations at 85 °C. DMOHC is too viscous to work well on its own at room-temperature but it can be used successfully in electrolyte blends. He also noted that the use of DMOHC has been patented by Tesla.
 
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Because calendar aging is the issue, your aim is to maximize the amount of time spent at lower SOC (55% or below) while still having plenty of range for unplanned errands or emergencies. What I would suggest is to schedule your charge such that you leave for work with 70%-80% and arrive home with 50%-55%. This way, you have 12 hours or so below the calendar aging threshold (which I think is 60% or slightly below).

That is if you plan to keep the car for 15 years. Chances are in 10 years we won't even be having this discussion as the physics of calendar aging (parasitic reactions) are becoming better understood and will be addressed. Micro managing your battery may not be worth the stress. Check out Jeff Dahn's work for his 4 million mile battery and EV Battery Health with Dr Jeff Dahn Dalhousie U (highly recommend watching this).

High temps (as you experience) speed up chemical reactions including those that cause battery degradation. It's no coincidence that batteries are happiest at the same temps humans are. These are the conditions we experiment and develop in. Dahn now is experimenting with batteries at extremely high temps and having success. I believe he discusses it in the video linked above.
Charging to 80% I arrive at work with about 68%, then when I get home I’m around 56%
So 70% charge daily might be a little better
 
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Charging to 80% I arrive at work with about 68%, then when I get home I’m around 56%
So 70% charge daily might be a little better
Low SOC is not bad so you can go as low as you ever like, or feel comfortable with.

The big change in calendar aging comes with the 55% or below @randall_s wrote about (for Panna NCA, a bit unsure about what car you have).

If you feel you need more than 55%, a good idea might be to charge late so the charhing is finished just before the drive.

If you use 12% to work, you could set the charging level to 67% and have it just done when going to work.
You artive with 55% and the car spends rest of the day in the low SOC regime.
 
If we ever get solid state batteries will those be able to charge any kind of way you want to, like letting it sit at 1-10% charge for weeks or sit at 100% charge for months with no effects to the battery?
in other words will solid state batteries be maintenance free (not having to keep up with how you charge the battery)
We do not know how they will hold up.
Its a lot of articles of those beeing perfect but I believe it when I see it in a research report using actual commercial cells cycled and stored.
 
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Low SOC is not bad so you can go as low as you ever like, or feel comfortable with.

The big change in calendar aging comes with the 55% or below @randall_s wrote about (for Panna NCA, a bit unsure about what car you have).

If you feel you need more than 55%, a good idea might be to charge late so the charhing is finished just before the drive.

If you use 12% to work, you could set the charging level to 67% and have it just done when going to work.
You artive with 55% and the car spends rest of the day in the low SOC regime.
I have the performance model 3

It’s not always exactly 12% though depending on weather, it’s been as low 10% and as high as 15% used to get to work

Then I have to consider emergencies or unplanned stops so if I only charge to 65-67% at home that could be cutting it close in some cases

The car sitting at work for 8 hrs with 58-60% battery would still be better than sitting at work with 68-70% battery wouldn’t it? Even though it’s slightly above 55%
 
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It’s not always exactly 12% though depending on weather, it’s been as low 10% and as high as 15% used to get to work

Then I have to consider emergencies or unplanned stops so if I only charge to 65-67% at home that could be cutting it close in some cases
Looks like you have a handle on it. Like myself, charging for daily needs which includes capacity for unscheduled use.
 
It’s not always exactly 12% though depending on weather, it’s been as low 10% and as high as 15% used to get to work

Then I have to consider emergencies or unplanned stops so if I only charge to 65-67% at home that could be cutting it close in some cases

The car sitting at work for 8 hrs with 58-60% battery would still be better than sitting at work with 68-70% battery wouldn’t it? Even though it’s slightly above 55%
Yes, a man gotta do what a man gotta do.

Just charge what you need and the battery will be fine. No need to worry.
I guess now you also know the basics behind the degradation processes.

Theres absolutely no need to try to reduce degradation:)

Theres one thing where it get slightly important. People that are commited to reduce degradation and then charge to 80% for a couple of years and then find that they have much higher degradation than they thought.
”I babied the battety for two years and still I get high degradation”.

Anyone that would like to reduce the degradation should get the correct info, and not the myths.
 
If we ever get solid state batteries will those be able to charge any kind of way you want to, like letting it sit at 1-10% charge for weeks or sit at 100% charge for months with no effects to the battery?
in other words will solid state batteries be maintenance free (not having to keep up with how you charge the battery)

Unclear. You might get less ongoing calendar degradation if you have no liquid electrolyte (but they've gone back on that in research finding solid only is too difficult, so its more of a separator), but as dendrites are always the problem with solid lithium anodes, you will be more likely to have unexpected catastrophic pack failures, particularly with supercharging.

No battery will be free of chemistry issues. Higher energy density always seems to add more potential problems.

If you notice, no large scale solid metallic lithium anode battery is in major production. (solid state is only valuable to inhibit dendrites from lithium metal anode which increases energy density). I would definitely not buy a vehicle with the first such generation of cells deployed. If you go back in time 5 years ago the common prediction was they'd be in production now. Toyota had a huge internal bet that they'd invent the Jesus Cell and leapfrog over everyone else in EVs (their actual strategy) and they put in tons of effort into various solid state battery systems and even production facilities.

Honestly, I think well optimized LFP from BYD and CATL will take over the world. Reliable and dense enough for a great price. CATL price is plummeting, not unsurprising eventually as the only constrained input mineral is lithium, and turns out there's a bunch of lithium if you go looking for it.
 
Unclear. You might get less ongoing calendar degradation if you have no liquid electrolyte (but they've gone back on that in research finding solid only is too difficult, so its more of a separator), but as dendrites are always the problem with solid lithium anodes, you will be more likely to have unexpected catastrophic pack failures, particularly with supercharging.

No battery will be free of chemistry issues. Higher energy density always seems to add more potential problems.

If you notice, no large scale solid metallic lithium anode battery is in major production. (solid state is only valuable to inhibit dendrites from lithium metal anode which increases energy density). I would definitely not buy a vehicle with the first such generation of cells deployed. If you go back in time 5 years ago the common prediction was they'd be in production now. Toyota had a huge internal bet that they'd invent the Jesus Cell and leapfrog over everyone else in EVs (their actual strategy) and they put in tons of effort into various solid state battery systems and even production facilities.

Honestly, I think well optimized LFP from BYD and CATL will take over the world. Reliable and dense enough for a great price. CATL price is plummeting, not unsurprising eventually as the only constrained input mineral is lithium, and turns out there's a bunch of lithium if you go looking for it.
Yea I read they were cutting their battery prices in half by the end of this year, a 6k battery replacement would be a lot nicer than 12k

Panasonic is supposed to be reducing the 2170 prices this year too
 
I was always under the impression that low SoC is what killed batteries not high SoC

Example if your phone or tablet stays at 0% for too long it kills it and won’t even charge, from my own experience it always seemed like my phone had better battery life when I charged it to 100% everyday but if ever let the battery die a few times it seemed like my battery life started to get worse
 
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As long as you have 1% then that’s fine? It’s just 0% that’s bad?
Wouldn’t worry about it, it’s a non-issue.

But no one would ever run at those SOCs for any period of time anyway, you are just risking needing a jump and a replacement 12V/16V.

Just use your car normally and don’t be afraid to use most of the battery energy if needed (and hope the BMS is correct and you don’t get premature shutdown above 0% which apparently happens on a few defective cars every now and then, but rare). But no pack worries, regardless.

Worst case you’ll be stopped in the middle of the road - a non-issue for the pack.
 
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