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Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells

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There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
IMG_1736.jpeg


For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
IMG_1735.jpeg



As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
 
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Mu old Model S 70D 2015.10 seems to use Nominal kWh / 0,190 kWh/km or Nominal kWh / 0,150 kWh/km as well, when showing both Typical and Rated Range.

I base/argue for these algorithms, by choosing the algorithm that give the least StdDev over multiple SoC :)
And a confirmation calculation the other way around shows, that if I were to yse the Useable energy instead of the Nominal energy, then the kWh/RatedKm and kWh/TypicalKm is way of :)

View attachment 1027024

I will redo the calculations with the broader SoC range, that I have now, I did above calcultaion soon after buying ScanMyTesla and only took data when car had been parked for some hours. And at that time I only had data from Daily Commutes, which ofcourse was performed at 25% - 65% as to always have my Classic NCA battery SoC below 55% when parked over night or when Working From Home :)
There is another easy way to calculate the constant for your car without requiring use of SMT. If you have an app like Tessie or possibly TeslaMate, they usually keep track of your charge data. If you have a pretty good history of your charge data from the app all you need to do is take total kWh charged divided by total km added. That should give you a very close number to the correct value if you have enough charge data stored in the app.

I think that number should match closely with your numbers mentioned above, like the .190 kWh/km you calculated.
 
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This is a research report I did not find before; searching for data about LG Chem 21700 M50. ( LG 78.8kWh pack).

Might not be exactly the same cell as in the 78.8 pack but most probably close enough to paint the picture we need/want:

So, now we have the data that tell us what we was reasonably convinced about before.
There is nothing new, LG Chem 21700 M50 behaves just like we thought it would:
IMG_8575.jpeg


- Lowest degradation (calendar aging) at lowest SOC.
- The step where the calendar aging increases is above 60%. Exakt point not revealed in this test, but below 70%. Most probably it would be found at or near the 62% true SOC as we have seen before for NMC. This means 58-60% displayed SOC or below will be a good setting for reducing the calendar aging (already known from numerous Teslas with the LG 78.8kWh pack that see very low degradation from using the low SOC strategy.
-We also, once again can see that 100% do not cause the worst degradation ( for normal temperatures) and that the worst once again is around 80% or so.

(Source: Lg chem M50 test )
 
This is a research report I did not find before; searching for data about LG Chem 21700 M50. ( LG 78.8kWh pack).

Might not be exactly the same cell as in the 78.8 pack but most probably close enough to paint the picture we need/want:

So, now we have the data that tell us what we was reasonably convinced about before.
There is nothing new, LG Chem 21700 M50 behaves just like we thought it would:
View attachment 1042943

- Lowest degradation (calendar aging) at lowest SOC.
- The step where the calendar aging increases is above 60%. Exakt point not revealed in this test, but below 70%. Most probably it would be found at or near the 62% true SOC as we have seen before for NMC. This means 58-60% displayed SOC or below will be a good setting for reducing the calendar aging (already known from numerous Teslas with the LG 78.8kWh pack that see very low degradation from using the low SOC strategy.
-We also, once again can see that 100% do not cause the worst degradation ( for normal temperatures) and that the worst once again is around 80% or so.

(Source: Lg chem M50 test )
Is 80% worst than 100% ?
Or is 80% show the same calendar aging as 100%? (Which means 80% is not any better than 100%)
 
Is 80% worst than 100% ?
Or is 80% show the same calendar aging as 100%? (Which means 80% is not any better than 100%)
As you can see in the chart, 70/80/85/90/95% causes a higher capacity loss than 100%.
This is not unusual.

Long term storage or use at 100% will increase the internal resistance, so it is not recommended to always haventhe pack at 100%.
Still, as 70-95% causes more degradation than 100%, the forum/facebook saying that you need to drive asap after a full charge is not true.
The real takeaway ( not new at all) is that to reduce the degradation rate you should try to reduce the time the battery spends above 60%.
 
As you can see in the chart, 70/80/85/90/95% causes a higher capacity loss than 100%.
This is not unusual.

Long term storage or use at 100% will increase the internal resistance, so it is not recommended to always haventhe pack at 100%.
Still, as 70-95% causes more degradation than 100%, the forum/facebook saying that you need to drive asap after a full charge is not true.
The real takeaway ( not new at all) is that to reduce the degradation rate you should try to reduce the time the battery spends above 60%.
Yes. I see the data. But what explains that 100% has less degradation than 70% or 80% ?
What happens chemically inside the battery at 100% that does not happen at 80%?
 
So teslas recommended charging is completely wrong and worse for the battery? Lol
Why would it be wrong?

We know almost all types of lithium ion batteries have the lowest calendar aging at 0% SOC, but still we do not expect Tesla to recommend to charge to 0%. The range would be short… :)

Tesla of corse aim for a reasonable degradation leading to no or very few warranty claims during the warranty period.

Daily 90% that changed to daily 80% reduces the maximum possible discharge cycle (DoD), and will reduce the cyclic aging.

Calendar aging eventually drops to very low rate, thats what Tesla plans with.

With the knowledge from the research community about lithium ion batteries Teslas advice seems quite okey.
Tesla would of course like to offer the maximum window of use for the owners with a minimum of rules to follow.

If you or anyone else thought so, there is not a single research or test that shows that 80% is the best SOC to use.

There are litterally hundreds of research reports that finds the same thing or very similar.
Also, now I now of a large number of Teslas that use the Low SOC stategy and they all have one thing common: much lower degradation than the average Tesla.
 
Why would it be wrong?

We know almost all types of lithium ion batteries have the lowest calendar aging at 0% SOC, but still we do not expect Tesla to recommend to charge to 0%. The range would be short… :)

Tesla of corse aim for a reasonable degradation leading to no or very few warranty claims during the warranty period.

Daily 90% that changed to daily 80% reduces the maximum possible discharge cycle (DoD), and will reduce the cyclic aging.

Calendar aging eventually drops to very low rate, thats what Tesla plans with.

With the knowledge from the research community about lithium ion batteries Teslas advice seems quite okey.
Tesla would of course like to offer the maximum window of use for the owners with a minimum of rules to follow.

If you or anyone else thought so, there is not a single research or test that shows that 80% is the best SOC to use.

There are litterally hundreds of research reports that finds the same thing or very similar.
Also, now I now of a large number of Teslas that use the Low SOC stategy and they all have one thing common: much lower degradation than the average Tesla.
They recommend charging to 80% daily but it degrades the battery more than 100% you said

They should be recommending 60% or 100% daily instead going by what you found since 70%, 80%, and 90% are all worse for the battery
 
They recommend charging to 80% daily but it degrades the battery more than 100% you said

They should be recommending 60% or 100% daily instead going by what you found since 70%, 80%, and 90% are all worse for the battery
I think when Tesla makes official recommendations there are several things they are considering. We tend to assume their recommendation is to optimize battery longevity. That's not their only concern. They want the best user experience as well.

For example, we know that, for lowest degradation, storing the battery at very low state of charge. Tesla would never make that an official recommendation. Why? Because it would lead to a frustrating user experience. People would keep their battery low and would not be able to get in their car and drive any meaningful distance if they need to without having to charge first. It would also tell people to use deeper and large cycles which are also not good for the battery.

We also know that high temperatures are not good. Yet Tesla heats up the battery to 45-50 C when driving to a supercharger because it allows a higher charge rate, thus less time to charge.

It would also be negative marketing if Tesla would officially recommend to only charge to 60% and only discharge to 40% and to charge as often as possible to keep cycles shallow. Potential buyers would shake their head. You already have less range compared to ICE and now you have to charge every 50 miles?

There are probably also lawyers who chime in with their warnings.

So Tesla's official recommendations are carefully balanced by marketing, engineers and lawyers.
 
It would also be negative marketing if Tesla would officially recommend to only charge to 60% and only discharge to 40% and to charge as often as possible to keep cycles shallow. Potential buyers would shake their head. You already have less range compared to ICE and now you have to charge every 50 miles?

Agree. This message works fine with experienced EV owners who have charging at home (like me) but Tesla (and everyone else) needs to sell EVs to non EV owners. And there is plenty of ignorance and emnity ready to jump on and twist any such statement. So to the automakers there's too much risk to make an official recommendation.

But we can here, and the science is clear. Ideal is lowish SOC maximum, shallow cycles.

I follow the low SOC recommendation (50 to 55% daily max charge limit, but as high as I want for long trips), and recharge most days.

I have now at least 345 rated miles @ 100% (I did not let the charge completely finish so maybe 1 or 2 more) of 358 nominal when new. That's 3.6% degradation in 22.6 months, and there's been almost none since last summer. There will probably be some degradation after the hot season and then virtually halt again.

With sqrt(t) scaling there will be 7.2% at 8 years. With time the gap between the ideal and the average person's degradation will increase.
 
Agree. This message works fine with experienced EV owners who have charging at home (like me) but Tesla (and everyone else) needs to sell EVs to non EV owners. And there is plenty of ignorance and emnity ready to jump on and twist any such statement. So to the automakers there's too much risk to make an official recommendation.

But we can here, and the science is clear. Ideal is lowish SOC maximum, shallow cycles.

I follow the low SOC recommendation (50 to 55% daily max charge limit, but as high as I want for long trips), and recharge most days.

I have now at least 345 rated miles @ 100% (I did not let the charge completely finish so maybe 1 or 2 more) of 358 nominal when new. That's 3.6% degradation in 22.6 months, and there's been almost none since last summer. There will probably be some degradation after the hot season and then virtually halt again.

With sqrt(t) scaling there will be 7.2% at 8 years. With time the gap between the ideal and the average person's degradation will increase.
Why not say charge to 100% though if it degrades battery less than 80%
 
Why not say charge to 100% though if it degrades battery less than 80%
As Dr Chaos says.

If people charged to 100% the possibly could not charge until they really needed to.
This would mean large cycles with high Depth of Discharge.

Below, Panasonic NCA (ncr18650) cycled between 100% and 0% (4.2V), 90% and 0% (4.1V) and 80% - 0% (4.0V).

Look at the blue and grey lines, they are about the C-rate for driving and AC charging.

100-0% can do ~625 FCE cycles before loosing 25% capacity.
80-0% can do around 1000 FCE.
Thats a 60% increase of the cycle count for the same miles/km on a car.
IMG_0138.png


That is only the cyclic aging for the car’s life. We need to add the calendar aging.

The industry standard for considering a battery cell reaching end of life is 20% degradation. When that level is reached the behaviour becames unpredictable, so its better to try to keep the battery above that line.

Having control over the cyclic aging allows to have a little more calendar aging and still reach a safe total number, meaning no or very few cars that claim warranty on the battery before the warrant expires.

Tesla is quite open with that battrries degrade, and there is (obviously) no indication that Tesla aim to have the lowest degradation in their customers fleet.


When Tesla change from two charging level options to the [slider], the wrote like this: (see bottom text on bottom picture)
IMG_5569.jpeg

IMG_5570.jpeg


There’s an very old article Tesla wrote about batteries (still online, search for *A bit about batteries*).
Its old and all things aren’t really true for Teslas anymore (for example Tesla charge to 4.20V/cell these days but the article states 4.15V/cell as the 100%, which might be first Roadster data).

This is Teslas own words:
IMG_8600.jpeg



Except for this we have a non countable number of research tests, all showing the same (there is no research reports that finds the opposite,really):

-0% is safe
-100% is also safe.
-Highest degradation will always be between 70-100%. Some reports find the Calendar aging relatively flat between ~70-100% and some find 80% to be the worst.
(For a common understanding, we can think of the calendar aging as about the same at high SOC.)

Still it would not be recommendable to always charge to 100% and have the car standing with 100% always.
For regular lithium ion batteries the internal resistance increases faster above 80%.
- The takeaway is that 100% is not at all as bad as the forum rumor, and that 80% isnt at all as good as the forum rumor says.
 
As Dr Chaos says.

If people charged to 100% the possibly could not charge until they really needed to.
This would mean large cycles with high Depth of Discharge.

Below, Panasonic NCA (ncr18650) cycled between 100% and 0% (4.2V), 90% and 0% (4.1V) and 80% - 0% (4.0V).

Look at the blue and grey lines, they are about the C-rate for driving and AC charging.

100-0% can do ~625 FCE cycles before loosing 25% capacity.
80-0% can do around 1000 FCE.
Thats a 60% increase of the cycle count for the same miles/km on a car.
View attachment 1043224

That is only the cyclic aging for the car’s life. We need to add the calendar aging.

The industry standard for considering a battery cell reaching end of life is 20% degradation. When that level is reached the behaviour becames unpredictable, so its better to try to keep the battery above that line.

Having control over the cyclic aging allows to have a little more calendar aging and still reach a safe total number, meaning no or very few cars that claim warranty on the battery before the warrant expires.

Tesla is quite open with that battrries degrade, and there is (obviously) no indication that Tesla aim to have the lowest degradation in their customers fleet.


When Tesla change from two charging level options to the [slider], the wrote like this: (see bottom text on bottom picture)
View attachment 1043227
View attachment 1043228

There’s an very old article Tesla wrote about batteries (still online, search for *A bit about batteries*).
Its old and all things aren’t really true for Teslas anymore (for example Tesla charge to 4.20V/cell these days but the article states 4.15V/cell as the 100%, which might be first Roadster data).

This is Teslas own words:
View attachment 1043232


Except for this we have a non countable number of research tests, all showing the same (there is no research reports that finds the opposite,really):

-0% is safe
-100% is also safe.
-Highest degradation will always be between 70-100%. Some reports find the Calendar aging relatively flat between ~70-100% and some find 80% to be the worst.
(For a common understanding, we can think of the calendar aging as about the same at high SOC.)

Still it would not be recommendable to always charge to 100% and have the car standing with 100% always.
For regular lithium ion batteries the internal resistance increases faster above 80%.
- The takeaway is that 100% is not at all as bad as the forum rumor, and that 80% isnt at all as good as the forum rumor says.
I just want to look at this one quote from your post....

The industry standard for considering a battery cell reaching end of life is 20% degradation. When that level is reached the behaviour becames unpredictable, so its better to try to keep the battery above that line.

What is your opinion of Tesla only replacing batteries after 30% degradation ?
 
I just want to look at this one quote from your post....

The industry standard for considering a battery cell reaching end of life is 20% degradation. When that level is reached the behaviour becames unpredictable, so its better to try to keep the battery above that line.

What is your opinion of Tesla only replacing batteries after 30% degradation ?
That’s what I thought, if 20% is so important why can they wait until it’s lost 30%