Porsche pajun / 717 EV (rumor)

[wallet.dat]

Going around the Nurbergring in record time means a lot...to a very few...most Tesla owners couldn't care less about it...with the engineering and acceleration attained by the current D models, I'm not sure why anyone would be of the opinion that it will always be Tesla's most prolific performer...the New Roadster, whenever it arrives, will certainly eclipse the D's performance.

Many of the old time Roadster owners here were 911 guys prior to 2008.

Unfortunately I'm afraid you may be right about this. This was a phenomena largely observed in the 80s when the "gold chain" set, who had absolutely zero interest in driving schools or learning the limits of their cars, descended upon the Porsche owner ranks. The consequences of this were a high number of cases of "high performance car/low performance driver". I see this sentiment echoed on this forum as well: "well how often do you track your Model S?" seems to be a common theme whenever, well, turning is brought up.

 

[Just a Reader]

Going around the Nurbergring in record time means a lot...to a very few...most Tesla owners couldn't care less about it...with the engineering and acceleration attained by the current D models, I'm not sure why anyone would be of the opinion that it will always be Tesla's most prolific performer...the New Roadster, whenever it arrives, will certainly eclipse the D's performance.

Many of the old time Roadster owners here were 911 guys prior to 2008.

Well, this may be so but it is a core element of Porsche's brand identity. They have just pushed a Cayenne around the Nordschleife in less than eight minutes and that's a two ton SUV. They aren't going to present a car that will get thrashed on the Ring and on the motorway by a car like the MB 350 CDI.

 

[tga]

Well, this may be so but it is a core element of Porsche's brand identity. They have just pushed a Cayenne around the Nordschleife in less than eight minutes and that's a two ton SUV. They aren't going to present a car that will get thrashed on the Ring and on the motorway by a car like the MB 350 CDI.

I played chase with a Cayenne Turbo at Watkins Glen. I was in a Boxster S. I gained on him in the corners, but he pulled away on the straights. I was surprised at how quick it was.

 

[rtz]

The word pajun isn't in my vernacular. The only thing that word brings to mind everytime I see it is punjab, but it makes me think of punji(stick). Which is probably what they intended. Poor name choice for numerous reasons. List one redeeming quality to naming a vehicle pajun.

It's just like when someone names a brand new neighborhood, shopping center, apartment complex, or business center "compton"; if they knew anything at all about that; they would have never, ever chosen that name for any reason. Just shows they are unaware.

 

[wart]

The word pajun isn't in my vernacular. The only thing that word brings to mind everytime I see it is punjab, but it makes me think of punji(stick). Which is probably what they intended. Poor name choice for numerous reasons. List one redeeming quality to naming a vehicle pajun.

It's just like when someone names a brand new neighborhood, shopping center, apartment complex, or business center "compton"; if they knew anything at all about that; they would have never, ever chosen that name for any reason. Just shows they are unaware.

Right now people are calling it "Pajun" as a contraction of "Panamera Junior." I don't expect the actual final product to be called Pajun.

 

[palmer_md]

911 purist bemoan the introduction of every new Porsche other than Supercars.

From the 944 to the Boxter to Panamera. And especially the CUVs.

I'm glad my 914 did not make the list. haha. I think Porsche is going to be a follower in this arena. I don't believe they are the walking dead as one post put it, but they are also not likely to be a leader in the EV revolution. They are situated in a good place (upscale sports car market) where they can afford to be a late comer and they will still do ok.

 

[roblab]

I had to go back and read the thread over. It distinctly says "Porsche Pajun EV".

Then... Wolfgang is quoted over and over as saying he is NOT GOING TO BUILD a Pajun EV. It is a RUMOR.

Then we go on for 45 posts arguing about Porsche and their Pajun EV, various body styles, race tracks, etc., etc., and why Porsche should or should not build an EV. Etc.

Remarkable. I'm impressed.

 

[mdemetri]

I'm glad my 914 did not make the list. haha. I think Porsche is going to be a follower in this arena. I don't believe they are the walking dead as one post put it, but they are also not likely to be a leader in the EV revolution. They are situated in a good place (upscale sports car market) where they can afford to be a late comer and they will still do ok.

I think thats what Kodak thought about digital film! And this is just one example of many where the best legacy manufacturer thought that technological advancements would not impact them and that they could just jump in later. Porsche and other ICE manufacturers need to start now developing a long range, high performance BEV, or they risk being Kodak. Just ask Gordon Gecko and 19th Century buggy whip makers who failed to realize they were being superseded by the automobile.

 

[bluenation]

i thought pajun was a native american word?

 

[bonnie]

I had to go back and read the thread over. It distinctly says "Porsche Pajun EV".

Then... Wolfgang is quoted over and over as saying he is NOT GOING TO BUILD a Pajun EV. It is a RUMOR.

Then we go on for 45 posts arguing about Porsche and their Pajun EV, various body styles, race tracks, etc., etc., and why Porsche should or should not build an EV. Etc.

Remarkable. I'm impressed.

We're special.

 

[tga]

911 purist bemoan the introduction of every new Porsche other than Supercars.

From the 944 to the Boxter to Panamera. And especially the CUVs.

I'm glad my 914 did not make the list. haha.

Heck, the real purists will tell you a real Porsche has an air-cooled engine in the rear. They had a hissy-fit when the 911 switched to water cooling with the 996 in 1999.

 

[rabar10]

Updated thread title.

 

[AustinPowers]

By the time Porsche realizes that long range EVs are the future, they will be far behind Tesla. Which is a shame. Porsche was a great company. There is still time for them to change but based on recent statements by their management they aren't going to change in time.

Almost sounds is if we were talking about a religion. To realize the wrongness of one's ways and then repenting, sorry, changing for the better.

No one knows whether long range EVs are the future. Of course we would like them to be, but who knows. Anyway, what I meant by "Porsche certainly knows how to build an EV comparable to the Model S" was, that Porsche has decades of experience in building great cars. Their engineers certainly know their stuff, no one will try to contest that, no?

Sure, Tesla had to start more or less from scratch, and they built an amazing EV. But just because Porsche or other manufacturers don't have a comparable vehicle on sale doesn't mean they don't know how to build one. It's not really that difficult. Even some inventive "kid" with the right amount of panache can build one - see the Rimac car! So don't tell me Porsche can't do it. Or any other big manufacturer.
Again, the current disadvantages are still just too large for the general public to adopt EVs - if they are not massively subsidized like in Norway, the US, Netherlands, France, China etc. Show me a market where EVs are really selling well where there are no incentives!

Oh and not to forget, before anyone accuses me of Tesla bashing: I own Tesla stock. I desperately want them to succeed, and I hope Model 3 will be the EV that I won't be able to resist to buy.

It's just that I am not blinded in a way as not to see that in a few years time the established automakers will all be offering great EVs.
I take the e-Golf as a prime example. VW waited a long time before they put that thing on the market. And when they did, it was perfect for what it could and was trying to be, given the constraints. But extrapolating from that model a few years into the future (given how cars in general have advanced over certain periods of time) makes me certain that the EV future will be looking bright.

So hopefully you will be right after all in that EVs ARE the future.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

I had to go back and read the thread over. It distinctly says "Porsche Pajun EV".

Then... Wolfgang is quoted over and over as saying he is NOT GOING TO BUILD a Pajun EV. It is a RUMOR. /...

Porsche Pajun to go all-electric as Tesla rival

/.../

According to the latest from Germany's own Auto Motor und Sport, Porsche is now planning to launch the so-called Pajun (shorthand for Panamera Junior just like the Macan project was previously called Cajun) purely as an electric vehicle. /.../

Word has it that Porsche believes that battery technologies will advance enough over the next four years to give its four-door EV a range of nearly 250 miles on a single charge. /...

[My underline.]


Source: Porsche Pajun to go all-electric as Tesla rival | Autoblog

Let's see how many posts this generates :wink:

 

[wart]

Let's see how many posts this generates :wink:

Here's one: the article title says "all-electric" but the accompanying renders clearly show a hybrid drivetrain.
I do want to see other serious EV's from other manufacturers besides Tesla. It's certainly entertaining seeing all these rumors, and it looks like Tesla is getting people's attention. But as far as credible competition goes, I'll believe it when I can walk into a showroom and test drive one.

 

[Jaff]

Agree completely!

This is the same practical conclusion that Elon reached with batteries...don't send us a power point, send an actual cell...

Here's one: the article title says "all-electric" but the accompanying renders clearly show a hybrid drivetrain.
I do want to see other serious EV's from other manufacturers besides Tesla. It's certainly entertaining seeing all these rumors, and it looks like Tesla is getting people's attention. But as far as credible competition goes, I'll believe it when I can walk into a showroom and test drive one.

 

[dennis]

Can Tesla get better at designing and building cars faster than other car manufacturers can get better at designing and building EVs?

The answer to this is a resounding YES. Tesla is still operating in startup mode. Decision making is much faster. They "do" rather than "study". They don't wait for "model years" to make incremental improvements and get experience with them. And while there are some negative ramifications for this fast pace of innovation, owning their own service centers and working hard to satisfy the customer helps to smooth over the inevitable hiccups.

Elon is still willing to take big chances. While it may seem foolish to bet your quarterly revenue on a new product you can't start building until 4 weeks before the end of the quarter, Tesla did that with the P85D. And they pulled it off through sheer will and some band aids like prior generation seats and substandard range. How many of the (my guess) 2500 P85D owners would have rathered they held off release until July and delivered the P85D as a fully perfected 2016 model (see 2016 Acura NSX)? We know a handful here that canceled and re-ordered, and a few that returned their cars. But the great majority are enjoying the hell out of their P85D while they wait for next gen seats and an over the air firmware upgrade to fix range.

And that is why IMO Tesla will get better at designing and building cars faster than other car manufacturers will get better at designing and building EVs.

 

[Gizmotoy]

The answer to this is a resounding YES. Tesla is still operating in startup mode. Decision making is much faster. They "do" rather than "study". They don't wait for "model years" to make incremental improvements and get experience with them. And while there are some negative ramifications for this fast pace of innovation, owning their own service centers and working hard to satisfy the customer helps to smooth over the inevitable hiccups.

Even beyond these points, it easy for Tesla to hire people with intimate knowledge about building great cars because people have been mass-producing cars for a long time and the pool of talent is large. This is less true for other manufacturers learning EVs, which right now involves a lot of R&D and takes time.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It is extremely annoying highly paid executives at GM ,Ford, VW ,Daimler-Benz, BMW etc can't see the obvious.

The Porsche company is one of the "walking dead": headed towards irrelevancy without even realizing it.

I would respectfully offer an alternative perspective:

Someone mentioned Apple and Steve Jobs - he was master of hyping what was Apple's then-current product and dismissing everything else, and then introducing whatever he dismissed yesterday to amazing cheers tomorrow. Always talk up what you sell today, talk down what you don't. It may be annoying and unfair as heck, but it doesn't always mean the person is ignorant or with a long-term agenda. They may simply have a short-term agenda.

Of course there is a chance some old-auto executives don't see what EVs can and will probably achieve, and perhaps that's true for, say, Honda.

But I would wager most of these companies and their executives perfectly well realize what Tesla has done and what they need to do, and will do. They are simply measuring their communications against the balance they are trying to strike, to maintain old sales, while gradually generating new sales without endangering either.

Now, the history is awash with companies who have failed at this, holding on too long to old fortunes, but that doesn't mean all of them did so blindly. They may simply have failed with their eyes fully open.

Equally, I would say Tesla is filled with people who know their EV dream can fail, too. They are not stupid, intelligent people understand failure is one potential outcome. You don't see them promoting that view, though, and that is understandable.

 

[Doug_G]

But I would wager most of these companies and their executives perfectly well realize what Tesla has done and what they need to do, and will do. They are simply measuring their communications against the balance they are trying to strike, to maintain old sales, while gradually generating new sales without endangering either.

This approach is wise, if you're talking about an change/improvement to technology. But when a disruptive change occurs, it ultimately results in business failure.

When transistors were first introduced, they sucked but had potential. Some tube companies ignored the new technology; others started their own transistor divisions. But when push came to shove, it made much more sense to invest in the existing, proven technology and markets. None of these companies were successful with the new technology. The end result - every single tube company failed, and the electronics market was taken over by new companies who specialized in transistors. The transistors eventually surpassed the performance and reliability of the tube technology - at a much cheaper price - so the transition was inevitable. This sort of thing has repeated over and over in many different markets. Car companies risk going the same route as EV technology moves forward.