Porsche pajun / 717 EV (rumor)

[VolkerP]

Remember, enthusiastic driving is more than 0-60 times, especially outside the U.S. And the Tesla drive trains run quickly out of thermal budget when driven hard. Let's see how the upcomig Formula E will handle this.

For Porsche to jump on EVs, more things must happen. They are right in that "enthusiastic driving" is a core value of their brand. Making a car that fails to aspire to these expectations would be like Tesla making an EV that cannot be supercharged. :crying:

 

[Doug_G]

Formula E should have no problem with cooling their motors. The Model S cooling system is sized for street use, plain and simple.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

.../ It's about Porsche's brand ethos, that every Porsche must have the capability to drive "enthusiastically" (and of course that definition is debatable) for longer than a BEV can do today. /...

&

Remember, enthusiastic driving is more than 0-60 times, especially outside the U.S. And the Tesla drive trains run quickly out of thermal budget when driven hard. Let's see how the upcomig Formula E will handle this.

For Porsche to jump on EVs, more things must happen. They are right in that "enthusiastic driving" is a core value of their brand. Making a car that fails to aspire to these expectations would be like Tesla making an EV that cannot be supercharged. :crying:

Source ?

The Porsche Principle

This quote gets to the heart of everything that makes Porsche what it is. As a brand, as a company and as an automotive manufacturer. It has been our guiding star – for more than 65 years. And it covers all the values that characterise our work and our vehicles. It’s no wonder, therefore, that no-one can describe this better than the person who created the very first sports car to bear the Porsche name: Ferdinand Anton Ernst - or Ferry Porsche, for short.

In the beginning, I looked around and could not find the car I'd been dreaming of: a small, lightweight sports car that uses energy efficiently. So I decided to build it myself.

Ferry Porsche

His dream of the perfect sports car has always driven us – throughout our history. And we get closer to achieving it every day. With every concept, every development and every model. Along the way, we follow a plan, an ideal that unites us all. We refer to it simply as the Porsche Principle. The underlying principle is to always get the most out of everything. From day one, we have strived to translate performance into speed – and success – in the most intelligent way possible. It's no longer all about horsepower, but more ideas per horsepower. This principle originates on the race track and is embodied in every single one of our cars. We call it "Intelligent Performance". [My underline.]

Source: http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/principleporsche/

&

Social Acceptance

It is important to us that the Porsche brand is firmly anchored in society. And represents an attainable dream. [My underline.]

Source: http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/principleporsche/

In Europe, I will argue, it is no longer socially acceptable to continue to dump an excess amount of CO2 and other Green House Gases into the atmosphere. And since the Tesla Roadster, "use[ing] energy efficiently" as stated by Ferry Porsche equals an electric drive train.

 

[ecarfan]

I agree. An EV sports car like the Roadster embodies Ferry Porsche's original reasons for designing and building the 356. Sadly, the people who run Porsche these days don't understand that. They are afraid to push the envelope of EV development and try to do something new.

 

[mdemetri]

The first Porsche ever made (by Ferry Porsche) was electric. Not sure why Porsche cannot return to their true origins when Tesla has shown that it is more than a dream.

Missing For 112 Years, First Porsche Is Found In Warehouse : The Two-Way : NPR

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Source ? /...

Never mind. I forgot...

 

[AustinPowers]

Only a small percentage of Porsche owners ever track their cars or drive for extended distances at over 80mph.

You should come over here and drive along the autobahn - any day. From my experience, only a small percentage of Porsche owners drive for extended distances under 80mph!

- - - Updated - - -

But right now Porsche is one of the walking dead: the company doesn't realize that the EV revolution is going forward without them.

But you have heard about the 918, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Porsche's excuse for not producing a quality EV (an extremely limited electric range hybrid like the 918 is not an EV!) is that "you cannot drive it enthusiastically without losing range or performance too quickly".

Tesla has already proved with the Roadster and the Model S that you can drive "enthusiastically" and still have plenty of range for the vast majority of trips, and that with the S you can recharge quickly and then be on your way. Tesla did that years ago and Porsche is still pretending like nothing has happened!

Perhaps the definition of "driving enthusiastically" varies, but if you ever really try to drive a Model S "enthusiastically" for longer periods of time you will lose range and performance very quickly. Strangely enough especially the latter, as I had to find out from a test with several EVs that focused on range and performance over extended periods and under various conditions (temperatures, speeds etc.) One of the results was that the Model S has a hard time to keep up its performance. The result was that the 0-60 times as advertised are only true if the engine is cold. When the engine gets warm, the acceleration drops - significantly.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. An EV sports car like the Roadster embodies Ferry Porsche's original reasons for designing and building the 356. Sadly, the people who run Porsche these days don't understand that. They are afraid to push the envelope of EV development and try to do something new.

While it is true that an electric drivetrain is suited for using energy efficiently, not all EVs are efficient. The test I mentioned (by magazine AutoMotorSport and TÜV Süd) found that for example the e-Golf is quite a bit more efficient in its energy usage then a Nissan Leaf, which is otherwise quite comparable. And the Model S efficiency, while better than the Nissan Leaf (in relation to its power and weight), according to that test also leaves quite a bit of room for improvement. So much for "pushing the envelope".

 

[tonybelding]

I think that "you cannot drive it enthusiastically without losing range or performance too quickly" is a perfectly valid reason for Porsche not to produce a pure BEV.

I think that's a perfectly valid reason for Porsche not to stop making ICE cars. However, they risk defining themselves too narrowly. There's a subset of people who understand the characteristics of BEVs (both capabilities and limitations) and find that they want a BEV. If that subset becomes large enough, and Porsche see enough people walking away from their brand, they'll need to adapt and respond to that.

 

[ecarfan]

The first Porsche (the electric car described in that article) was not designed by Ferry but by his father, Ferdinand Porsche Sr. "Ferry" was his son, and it was Ferry who designed the first Porsche made by the new Porsche company, the 356, which was started in 1948.

The first Porsche ever made (by Ferry Porsche) was electric. Not sure why Porsche cannot return to their true origins when Tesla has shown that it is more than a dream.

Missing For 112 Years, First Porsche Is Found In Warehouse : The Two-Way : NPR

 

[ecarfan]

Porsche pajun EV

You should come over here and drive along the autobahn - any day. From my experience, only a small percentage of Porsche owners drive for extended distances under 80mph!

But you have heard about the 918, right?

As I stated in an earlier post in this topic, the 918 is NOT an EV, it is a hybrid with a massive ICE and an extremely limited range in pure electric mode.

The fact that Porsche has built a $900K 918 hybrid that can go 15 miles in pure electric mode, a $100K (base price!) hybrid Panamera that can maybe go 20 miles in pure electric mode, and a $76k (base price) Cayenne Hybrid that can go maybe a bit over 20 miles in pure electric mode does not mean that they know how to build an EV, and the company has made clear that they have no plans to build an EV for years. That is a major mistake. They are losing significant Panamera sales right now to the Model S and when the X is launched they will lose Cayenne sales as well. Maybe that will jolt them into reality since the Cayenne is their cash cow. And Cayenne owners aren't generally interested in "enthusiastic driving".

As to Porsche owners driving at high speed on the autobahn, that represents only a very small fraction of all Porsche drivers worldwide.

The Porsche company is one of the "walking dead": headed towards irrelevancy without even realizing it.

 

[tga]

They are losing significant Panamera sales right now to the Model S

Panamera sales are down/declining. Model S is selling well. There is no proof that the Model S is stealing away Panamera buyers. Correlation does not imply causation.

when the X is launched they will lose Cayenne sales as well.

Possibly, but that's just speculation.

 

[Jaff]

Going around the Nurbergring in record time means a lot...to a very few...most Tesla owners couldn't care less about it...with the engineering and acceleration attained by the current D models, I'm not sure why anyone would be of the opinion that it will always be Tesla's most prolific performer...the New Roadster, whenever it arrives, will certainly eclipse the D's performance.

Many of the old time Roadster owners here were 911 guys prior to 2008.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Given the rising CO2 level in the atmosphere (rising sea-level, increasing acidification of every liquid on the planet – including your children’s blood stream, and so on and so forth…), I at least, ask myself if there will ever come a time for Porsche when:

Going electric (as in buying into Tesla Super Chargers) to maximize CO2 reduction > “enthusiastic driving”?


Porsche at their price point can do things Tesla currently can’t[SUP]1[/SUP]:

1. They can optimize battery cell placement from a performance point of view: Meaning no batteries under the front seats in order for the driving position to be the lowest possible. They can instead place batteries in a center console. Maybe in an electric Pajun sacrifice the fifth seat in the back for more batteries.

2. They can use lighter materials, as in carbon fiber instead of aluminum.

3. They can perhaps engineer more cooling capacity to whatever part of the drive train that is overheating in The Model S P85D.

4. They can just transfer their know how of exclusive up market interiors…

5. They can enable buyers the option of equipping their vehicle with a towing hook (wink, wink…)

Porsche is also part of the VW group. That means that both Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley and also the VW-brand can share the same tech. And if that’s not enough, then why not also enter into a cost-share venture with BMW and Merc?



[SUP]1[/SUP]Or maybe Tesla also can?...


- - - Updated - - -

Am I too optimistic in thinking that a fully electric Pajun that bests a P85D in acceleration, range and weight, and can access Tesla Super Chargers and looks something like this[SUP]2[/SUP] would be profitable for Porsche if they share the tech with Audi (and possibly also Lambo and Bentley)?



[SUP]2[/SUP]Excluding the Yucky-green calipers of course(!)...

 

[30seconds]

Assuming that someone builds a huge battery factory for them? So far Porsche/Audi/VW has been almost all show and no "Go." Once they show substantial investment in a mass market EV platform I will believe them, until then I'm betting that the Bolt makes it to market two years before any mass market solution from these guys

 

[bluenation]

fwiw, i think the cayenne/macan is hideous

and i've already made my distate of the panamera design

not to mention, poor drag coeff. better to start a from the ground up ev chassis

 

[AustinPowers]

The fact that Porsche has built a $900K 918 hybrid that can go 15 miles in pure electric mode, a $100K (base price!) hybrid Panamera that can maybe go 20 miles in pure electric mode, and a $76k (base price) Cayenne Hybrid that can go maybe a bit over 20 miles in pure electric mode does not mean that they know how to build an EV, and the company has made clear that they have no plans to build an EV for years. That is a major mistake. They are losing significant Panamera sales right now to the Model S and when the X is launched they will lose Cayenne sales as well. [...]

The Porsche company is one of the "walking dead": headed towards irrelevancy without even realizing it.

At that last sentence I can only shake my head. Again and again. That assumption is yours to make of course, but it's based on nothing of any relevance.

And believe me, Porsche certainly knows how to build an EV comparable to the Model S. But to them that is not enough - same goes for many buyers. Otherwise Model S worldwide sales (production constraints aside) would be much higher than what they are now. And as far as "significant sales" are concerned. If Porsche would consider the drop in sales really significant, they would certainly have an answer to it.

 

[WarpedOne]

And believe me, Porsche certainly knows how to build an EV comparable to the Model S.

And how is this different from "That assumption is yours to make of course, but it's based on nothing of any relevance"?
On what basis should we believe "Porsche certainly knows how to build an EV comparable to the Model S"?
Proof is in the puding - until they go and build it I will hold the position that they do not know how to do it.

But to them that is not enough - same goes for many buyers

Is just an empty excuse. They have zero problems launching laughable cars (cayene ...), and they also have zero problems making ultra expensive cars.

Otherwise Model S worldwide sales (production constraints aside) would be much higher than what they are now.

Last I looked every model S build is sold at least two months in advance. Who was to build all those Model S that weren't sold?
You cannot put "production constraint aside" and then go saying sells would be much higher if it was so and so. Pure speculation based on nothing.

If Porsche would consider the drop in sales really significant, they would certainly have an answer to it.

So did Audi with R8 eTron. A "Roadster killer" with 150 miles range and 250k USD price tag.
I'm sure posche could buld an electric panamera with 80 miles range and $265k price.

All this "they could but they do not want to" is pure and empty speculation.
Those who can, do. Those who cannot, spend all day explaining why they really don't want to.

 

[ecarfan]

And believe me, Porsche certainly knows how to build an EV comparable to the Model S. But to them that is not enough - same goes for many buyers. Otherwise Model S worldwide sales (production constraints aside) would be much higher than what they are now.

Of course I am stating my opinion, as are you. We can agree to disagree.

I would point out that Tesla is production constrained (as you acknowledge) and selling every Model S they can make months in advance at double the production levels of 2013 and WITHOUT ADVERTISING and with a very limited network of showrooms after less than three years of production, even though they are legally prohibited from selling in multiple states in the US and have a very limited presence in many developed countries.

It is clear to me that if Tesla was a long established company with a multi-million dollar marketing budget, showrooms and service centers everywhere that Porsche has dealerships, and multiple EV models over a broader price range to match Porsche, that Tesla would outsell Porsche ICE models right now.

And I predict that within a decade that will happen, and that Porsche will not launch a long range EV comparable to a Tesla (in performance and price) in the next five years. Porsche lacks the will, the expertise, and the battery supply at a price comparable to what the Gigafactory will produce.

By the time Porsche realizes that long range EVs are the future, they will be far behind Tesla. Which is a shame. Porsche was a great company. There is still time for them to change but based on recent statements by their management they aren't going to change in time.

Time will tell...

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

fwiw, i think the cayenne/macan is hideous

and i've already made my distate of the panamera design

not to mention, poor drag coeff. better to start a from the ground up ev chassis

Cayenne has a hideous rear light arrangement. Panamera has a really unfortunate rear design. As I understand it, Porsche design staff has even acknowledged the Panamera design misfortunes themselves. Apart from the rear I think the Macan looks good. There is something about the rear on the Macan that doesn’t feel right. The ‘cut-off’ of the line continuing from the rear window feels too low. And I think it would also look better with a more upright rear window. The angle on the Audi Q5 would probably do it. I don’t see anything wrong with the basic design of the rear taillights on the Macan though.

The car in the picture above in post #33 is not the Panamera. It’s the Panamera Sport Turismo Concept. And apart from the slime green calipers I personally think Porsche design nailed the aesthetics on that one. It’s lacking rear view mirrors though... The drag coeff on that concept might be poor. Don’t really know enough to comment on that one.




EDIT: Ok... On second thought the rear of the Panamera Sport Turismo Concept needs some work as well. But IMO it's by far the best of the four.

 

[techmaven]

And believe me, Porsche certainly knows how to build an EV comparable to the Model S.

I think this is an interesting topic to explore... I think there has been precious little information shared on the actual differences between EV technologies. Certainly in the ICE world, all sorts of facets of minutiae on ICE technology has been debated and dissected and the various comparable strengths of ICE technologies are pretty well understood. In the EV powertrain world, no so much. There is some distance between buying some lithium ion pouch cells (NCM gen 1), incorporating someone else's BMS, and throwing in yet someone else's DC permanent magnet motor into a chassis otherwise designed for an ICE car versus what Tesla is doing. What really is the gulf between a home built EV conversion, what Porsche/BMW/Nissan is doing, and what Tesla is doing in in EV powertrain technologies? I think there is some tendency to dismiss Tesla's EV powertrain technologies as something basically simple or easy to find as a commodity and everyone can do it easily.

Can Porsche design an EV that is every bit as good as a Model S on paper? Certainly. Can Porsche build it? Not so certainly. Do they have the battery management design, both physical and software? Do they have the purchase contract for the cells at the right prices? If they don't choose batteries with specific energy at least 250 Wh/g, can they really produce car comparable to a Model S? I'm thinking that it gets harder and harder the further you move lower from 250 Wh/g. That rules out everything NCM, LiPO4, etc, at least for now. Can Porsche buy cells @ < $200/kWh? Can they assemble the packs in a cost effective and reliable manner? This is roughly 15-20% of the price of the car. The size of the pack determines max range, max power output, max charge speed, weight, and is a huge component of cost.

Then there comes things like, does Porsche have the technology for a 3 phase AC induction motor that is as good as Tesla's? Or a different design that is as good or better? Or do they source motors from someone else that isn't as good? After all, the Porsche 918's motors are AC synchronous permanent magnet designs, with 129 hp and 156 hp. The P85 has a 470hp 3 phase AC induction motor with no permanent magnets. Tesla went to buy motors, but ended up designing and building their own. We have very little real information to be able to directly compare, including reliable weight and efficiency numbers. Plus, we really don't know if Porsche has the technical capability in house to build 400+hp electric motors with comparable weight and efficiency, or what it would take for them to acquire the expertise. They could just hire Wally Rippel. Would they?

There is wide gulf in the technology, just in motor design between basically every other production EV and Tesla's EVs in the EV powertrain. Then there are the many hours of expertise gained in high speed charging, cell longevity, battery cooling design, etc. Certainly there are parts of building cars that Porsche excels at that Tesla still sucks at doing. Just like Porsche can hire EV power train people and companies, Tesla can hire people trained in chassis dynamics, car interior design, and so forth. Tesla's hire from Aston Martin, Chris Porritt for example, was the chief engineer on Aston Martin's One-77 and is now Tesla's VP of vehicle engineering. Can Tesla get better at designing and building cars faster than other car manufacturers can get better at designing and building EVs?

Reference: Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors | Tesla Motors