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On today's TMC Podcast, we ask the question "What is the Tesla Cybercab?". Join us on YouTube live at 1PM and participate in the chat.
Breezy
Member
Could be either. Sounds like a company/organization/municipality applies and gets a grant to help defray the cost of the charger.
Ktowntslafan
Member
Apologies...Edited and added commentary.
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Maybe, maybe not...but I'm looking pretty conservative at 300 miles:
745 Miles of Range for Tesla Cars by 2020, Says Elon Musk
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/tesla-electric-range-2020/#.VmeMzLgrLrcThe Bolt will be interesting to watch:
The Model 3 probably won’t be available for purchase in any kind of volume until 2018. The Bolt, on the other hand, should be available well before that.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2015/12/04/this-week-in-evs-2017-chevy-bolt-tesla-model-3-rival-spy-photos-arrive/
Elon has said a lot of things. You're also completing misunderstanding the quote: "The current Model S distance record is 700 kilometers, and Musk believes they will reach 1,000 kilometers “within a year or two”." Did you read that? That statement is taking the CURRENT Model S as being capable of 700 km. I'm sure it is capable of doing that, you know, if you go 40 km/h with no stops, no wind, and all non-essentials turned off. That's not even remotely relevant to the discussion. Would you commit to a trip of 480 km with no recharging in an 85 kWh Model S? Because that's what Tesla advertised the range as.
And, again, pronouncements of future releases of products are not reliable predictions of the future. There is no evidence of improvements in battery cost or energy density in recent history which suggest that any of these predictions will come true. It would be nice if they did, but it's not sensible to base policy on projections from marketing departments.
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Level 2 is AC 240V. Level 3 are DC chargers. Ironically, 80A J1772 @ 240V is 19.2kW, which is close to what some limited CHAdeMO stations provide.
I have little doubt that a good chunk of the money from the program will be squandered. That's not necessarily because a government is implementing it (though Ontario doesn't have the greatest track record of implementing anything lately). It's because if you don't drive an electric vehicle, you don't understand the challenges and needs of the drivers. People just don't have the imagination needed to figure out how they would use a product they've never actually used in a realistic way.
Hopefully the bureaucrats implementing the program will decide to themselves drive EVs. Only then would I expect the program to be well-implemented.
On the bright side, $20m is enough money that even if they screw up badly, we'd hopefully still have a fair number of new charging stations in useful locations.
Hopefully the bureaucrats implementing the program will decide to themselves drive EVs. Only then would I expect the program to be well-implemented.
On the bright side, $20m is enough money that even if they screw up badly, we'd hopefully still have a fair number of new charging stations in useful locations.
Ktowntslafan
Member
Agree 100%.
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And who can blame them?:
"NADA data shows the average dealership’s net profit at around $40,000 from new vehicle sales and $120,000 from used vehicle sales, so the $350,000 that comes from parts and service looms particularly large."
The Fuse | Why Car Dealerships Struggle With Selling Electric Vehicles
Ktowntslafan
Member
I said 300 miles by 2020. Did you read that?
"Range anxiety may keep you from driving an electric car right now, but Tesla chief Elon Musk doesn't expect that to be a problem for very long. When grilled about driving distances in a Danish interview, Musk revealed that he expects the battery technology to improve at a rate of 5 to 10 percent per year, which could lead to some massive range gains in a relatively short space of time. The CEO notes that people have already driven the Model S up to 500 miles on a charge at slow speeds, and that this could extend to over 600 miles as soon as 2016, and a whopping 746 miles by 2020. While it's doubtful that you'd get these figures blazing down the highway, Treehugger's back-of-the-napkin math suggests that this should still lead to a realistic range of 382 to 483 miles. That's enough for many city-to-city trips, and it doesn't account for lighter materials or other efficiency refinements."
Elon Musk hopes to conquer electric car range limits by 2020
It's not sensible to base EV policy on projections from ICE auto makers. Policy makers need to understand that 200-300 mile EV's are here now, so that they may invest tax dollars wisely.
Ktowntslafan
Member
Good point. Here's an idea: Let's drop the HST on EV's altogether. Range anxiety-gone.
It's The provincial gov. of Ontario. They could screw up a 2 car parade, I'm guessing there will be staff that need to be hired, government tender for building contracts, economic and or environmental studies. I'm happy they are taking the initiative however my bias says this is just more pandering and will make little difference when implemented, I'd love to know at the end how many chargers were installed as part of this program and then divide that number by 20 million.
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Hst + ev rebate could be about $13000 in savings over a similarly priced ICE for a leaf buyer. However you would need the Province to convince the Feds to give the tax break on their portion of the HST.
I think i like this idea more than investing $20m to build charging. You reduce the chance of government mismanagement of the EV charger roll out, you increase the number of EVs leading to private industry catering more to the EV market and it's customers and you let business and EV drivers decide where to locate the charging infrastructure.
Ktowntslafan
Member
If you agree with the article above, then what do you make of this statement by the CVMA?:
Manufacturers Support Ontario's Investment in Electric Vehicle Recharging Infrastructure
Vehicle Manufacturers Support Ontario's Investment in Electric Vehicle Recharging Infrastructure -- TORONTO, Dec. 8, 2015
About the CVMA
The Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association is the industry association that has represented Canada's leading manufacturers of light and heavy duty motor vehicles for more than 85 years. Its membership includes FCA Canada Inc.; Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited and General Motors of Canada Limited. Collectively, its members sell 48% of all vehicles in Canada and account for over 60% of total vehicle production, operate 5 vehicle assembly plants as well as engine and components plants, and have over 1,300 dealerships. 125,000 jobs are directly tied to vehicle assembly in Canada. Direct and indirect jobs associated with vehicle manufacturing are estimated at over 500,000 across Canada. Please visit www.cvma.ca
mknox
Well-Known Member
As a Tesla owner, I feel you, but there are other EVs on the road as well. Not all can utilize Level 3 charging, for instance some Leafs and Volts. Also, those that can don't all use CHAdeMO. I believe the Level 3 charging we will see in Ontario will be those combination CHAdeMO/CSS units that have two heads (but only one of the pair can be used at a time).
I believe there is a need to see some government incentive for Level 2 charging, particularly at destinations like workplaces.
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Level 2 are 208-240 volts up to 80 amps. Level 3 are DC fast chargers like the Tesla Supercharger, CHAdeMO or Combo Plug.
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Doug, you are absolutely correct. This is why I try to get involved in as many forums and working groups as I can to try and present the EV owner's experience. I am fortunate that my career choice has afforded me these opportunities. There are many good, well-intentioned people thinking through these issues, but it is painful to see just how entrenched the gas car paradigm is and how it influences decisions.
Breezy
Member
“The program will be application-based on a first-come, first-serve basis,” said Murray,
We don't have the full details, but it sure sounds like a grant program. As such the only government overhead will be in processing applications.
Ktowntslafan
Member
According to CA.gov’s Plug-In Electric Vehicle Resource Center (how many states have one of these?), you can get a boatload of incentives. Here’s what you get if you live in San Francisco and buy an EV:
- $1,500 for retiring an internal combustion engine vehicle
- $7,500 federal EV tax credit
- $5,000 California rebate
- $2,500 rebate from San Francisco
Electric Vehicle (EV) Adoption: What the Feds Won’t Do, the States Will - Investment U
AND:
Christina Bu, the head of the Norwegian Electric Vehicle Association, says the country's system works because:
“it’s constructed to make the least-polluting cars the most attractive.”
"To see how the subsidies translate to the showroom, consider Norway’s best-selling electric car this year, the Volkswagen e-Golf.
At the Moller Bil Ryen Volkswagen dealership in Oslo, a standard diesel Golf retails for about 330,000 Norwegian kroner, or about $40,000. After tax breaks, a comparably equipped version of its electric cousin, the e-Golf, sells for 250,000 kroner, or just under $31,000."
(this is the secret...and where government funds should be directed. Everything else will fall into line...range anxiety gone.)
Norway Is a Model for Encouraging Electric Car Sales Log In - The New York Times
Credit
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Depends how you look at it.
I don't like it for now, but it does encourage purchase of PEVs, even without home charging, or where a driver needs a PHEV for now, and in the future it might be a good thing, because it's pretty clear that the greatest renewable potential is in solar, and it'd be better to have people charging during the day. Typical peaks are actually early evening, rather than day time.
We have TOU pricing here in Ontario. For the winter period the peak time is 7-11am and 5-7pm. For the summer the peak period is 11am-5pm. So assuming that those do properly correspond to peak usage times then the evening isn't a peak time during the summer. But assuming that everyone plugs in when they get to work most people might be charged by 11am so in summer you may not add to peak usage. But you may in the winter time if you assume that maximum usage of EV chargers will occur when people arrive at work so they would be consuming the most power from roughly 9-11am.
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
At my workplace, I installed a bank of ........1 charger......It works great!:wink:
I do plug in almost every morning and I'm fully charged by mid to late morning. It's also on Plugshare (Intralec Electrical Products | Mississauga, ON | Electric Car Charging Station | PlugShare) 48 amp @ 208 volt, we've had about 6 people use it since August.
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