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Ontario to invest $20 million in stations to charge up electric cars

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Tesla supercharger network may end up being the best multi-manufacturer charging network and it may have the biggest impact on EV adoption in the long run. Elon said that they were having discussions with a European (not German) car company on sharing the supercharger network. Hopefully that will happen and other carmakers will join in

Tesla Added More Than 850 Public Charging Stations in a Year

As part of the government project, called the EV Everywhere Workplace Charging Challenge, the DOT hopes to establish 500 electric charging stations throughout the country by 2025. Looks like Tesla already beat it.

Tesla Added More Than 850 Public Charging Stations in a Year | Inverse
 
Anyone know if there's a workplace in North America with a bank of charging stations that are used regularly? What are they and how are they managed, if cars are sufficiently charged long before the workday is over?
Several of the large office complexes in Toronto, like Brookfield Place and First Canadian Place have several charges. Brookfield Place has seven chargers - I believe each charger can reach two stalls. They are managed by the parking lot attendants.
 
All these announcements in the last 48 hours from COP21...many more I'm sure (including Ontario):

Eight US states plus five countries across the globe want to ban new gasoline-powered vehicles by 2050, Car and Driver reports.

Gas powered cars banned - Business Insider

French billionaire Bollore readies London electric car scheme
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...llore-readies-London-electric-car-scheme.html

Africa: Urgent Call for Zero-Emission Vehicles As Part of Global Climate Change Mitigation Strategy

http://allafrica.com/stories/201512091045.html

Top Gear is fond of a well-sorted V8. And V10. And V12. The international community, it seems, is less fond of such engines. So at the COP21 climate change conference in Paris, an agreement has been reached to wipe such engines from the face of the planet. Or at least part of the planet.
There will be no petrol or diesel cars on sale in the UK by 2050* | Top Gear
 
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We have TOU pricing here in Ontario.

Which applies to residential and small commercial accounts (less than 50 kW demand) only. And the TOU periods were set more for political than practical reasons. The summertime peak often occurs after 7:00 pm and originally the summertime peak went to (I think) 9:00 pm, but the government intervened (again, for political reasons) and rolled it back to 7:00 pm. Many of the larger services that would supply a typical large workplace pay for energy based on hourly pricing which is set by the IESO and varies based on supply/demand. The commodity charge is also the only component of the rate subject to TOU/hourly pricing. Distribution and regulatory charges are the same through all periods, which has the effect of "diluting" the overall effect of variable commodity rates.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone know if there's a workplace in North America with a bank of charging stations that are used regularly? What are they and how are they managed, if cars are sufficiently charged long before the workday is over?

I have heard that there are workplaces in Silicon Valley with lots of charging stalls and they still experience overflow. I think I heard some companies were resorting to using things like their corporate Outlook calendaring system to reserve spots just like you might reserve a meeting room.

I have 2-80 amp J1772 stations serving 4 dedicated spots at my office. They get regularly used by our company Volt and my Model S and we do seem to get a good number of "drop-ins". I leave a big green "OKAY TO UNPLUG" sign on my dash so that anyone dropping in can pull in to the spot next to me and swing the cable over to their car.
 
I have heard that there are workplaces in Silicon Valley with lots of charging stalls and they still experience overflow. I think I heard some companies were resorting to using things like their corporate Outlook calendaring system to reserve spots just like you might reserve a meeting room.

At my previous employer in Waterloo, we used this system (created a conference room resource in Outlook) to effectively share a single charger between several EV drivers. It worked quite well, and also gave us a way to contact the user of the resource if there was any issue. For my Model S, in the winter I usually tried to book for an hour or so at the end of the day so that I could pre-heat and top up before my 90km commute home.

dj905
 
Case in point: Elon Musk, at the Tesla Model X reveal in February of 2012, said "We'll start production toward the end of next year, and then full production will start in 2014".

Remember, this is one of the guys whose pronouncements on the future you are taking at face value.

Yeah, we all know about "Tesla Timeframes". They used to refer to the Steve Jobs "reality distortion field". I think with Musk it's the "temporal distortion field" :smile:
 
Here's a case study:

"B.C.’s Energy Minister Bill Bennett said the province already has the largest public-charging network in Canada for electric vehicles at more than 1,000 outlets, but more can be done.
So far, there are less than 2,000 electric vehicles on the road in B.C., he said."

B.C. signs global pledge for all new vehicles to be zero-emission by 2050

So 1000 chargers cured range anxiety for just 2000 EV buyers in BC. Is this where Ontario should be investing $$ to build demand for EV's...or should we double down on off invoice incentives with Federal support and let manufacturers figure out charging?

PS: We should be offering incentives provincially/federally for Gigafactory 2 or 3...200++ need to be built globally-Tesla or any other manufacturer who is proven committed to the EV revolution.
 
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Here's a case study:

"B.C.’s Energy Minister Bill Bennett said the province already has the largest public-charging network in Canada for electric vehicles at more than 1,000 outlets, but more can be done.
So far, there are less than 2,000 electric vehicles on the road in B.C., he said."

B.C. signs global pledge for all new vehicles to be zero-emission by 2050

So 1000 chargers cured range anxiety for just 2000 EV buyers in BC. Is this where Ontario should be investing $$ to build demand for EV's...or should we double down on off invoice incentives with Federal support and let manufacturers figure out charging?

PS: We should be offering incentives provincially/federally for Gigafactory 2 or 3...200++ need to be built globally-Tesla or any other manufacturer who is proven committed to the EV revolution.
What they don't say is that the vast majority of those chargers are located in spots useless to long range travel, and with rates slower than one I get in my garage at home.

What will encourage EV adoption is high speed charging and long range EVs, not a bunch of low power connectors at grocery stores a block from home.
 
What they don't say is that the vast majority of those chargers are located in spots useless to long range travel, and with rates slower than one I get in my garage at home.

What will encourage EV adoption is high speed charging and long range EVs, not a bunch of low power connectors at grocery stores a block from home.
Thanks for the insight and I'm not surprised...this is exactly my concern for Ontario's initiative.
 
What they don't say is that the vast majority of those chargers are located in spots useless to long range travel, and with rates slower than one I get in my garage at home.

What will encourage EV adoption is high speed charging and long range EVs, not a bunch of low power connectors at grocery stores a block from home.

I agree. Here in Minnesota, the coalition of EV and environmental groups has decided for now to lobby the state gov't for rebates on EVs rather than on subsidies for chargers. The argument is that that will do more to get more EVs on the road than would having more chargers. As much as I want there to be DCFCs everywhere (the little Level 2 AC chargers are a waste of money; I hope Ontario doesn't spend much if any of that $20M on them), I have to agree with their strategy. The lobbyists for the coalition can only do so much, funds are unlimited, and they are correct that their message must be focused. And as there get to be more EVs on the road, it will get easier to convince places to install DCFCs.

So, the adult in me agrees with the coalition. But the impatient child in me still wishes Minnesota had some sort of subsidy for DCFCs, as it would make my life easier. Patience, I guess.
 
Tesla got their SC network in place...without gov assistance (in ONT as least). Why would ONT now subsidize BIG AUTO who could have been moving on EV's long ago...and who have an obvious advantage in charging infrastructure...dealerships.

Our 8,400 Mile Journey with No “Range Anxietyâ€￾ | Tesla Motors


Well, who here thinks you've got enough chargers in Ontario? If you want to solely wait for Tesla to install SCs, simply because it doesn't involve public subsidy, it's going to be quite a while I think before you hit saturation point in chargers. I would argue that the $20M isn't so much a subsidy to the old auto companies, as it is a way for smaller communities to participate in the transition to sustainable transport. The subsidy would allow those communities to say "We support EVs, come to our town". I want *everyone* to participate in the transition to EVs, and not a state where we all just stand around and wait for Tesla to make things happen.

$20M would pay for nearly 400 50kw DCFCs (at $50k a piece), probably more when you consider that local communities could themselves contribute to the cost. Why would they want to do this? Because it gives EV owners a reason to stop in their towns. It's really an economic development subsidy. If you drive across Ontario, particularly west, you're charging choices get pretty slim; most non-early adopters won't even try it. But if you can say there's a DCFC in most towns even as you drive to the northwest, that lowers the resistance to EV adoption. So, if/when you drive through places that don't have a charger, stop in the economic development office (or the chamber of commerce) and point out that the provincial gov't would assist in the installation of a charger, a charger that would actually attract travelers to the town.
 
Well, who here thinks you've got enough chargers in Ontario? If you want to solely wait for Tesla to install SCs, simply because it doesn't involve public subsidy, it's going to be quite a while I think before you hit saturation point in chargers. I would argue that the $20M isn't so much a subsidy to the old auto companies, as it is a way for smaller communities to participate in the transition to sustainable transport. The subsidy would allow those communities to say "We support EVs, come to our town". I want *everyone* to participate in the transition to EVs, and not a state where we all just stand around and wait for Tesla to make things happen.

$20M would pay for nearly 400 50kw DCFCs (at $50k a piece), probably more when you consider that local communities could themselves contribute to the cost. Why would they want to do this? Because it gives EV owners a reason to stop in their towns. It's really an economic development subsidy. If you drive across Ontario, particularly west, you're charging choices get pretty slim; most non-early adopters won't even try it. But if you can say there's a DCFC in most towns even as you drive to the northwest, that lowers the resistance to EV adoption. So, if/when you drive through places that don't have a charger, stop in the economic development office (or the chamber of commerce) and point out that the provincial gov't would assist in the installation of a charger, a charger that would actually attract travelers to the town.

Tesla's business model is working...destination charging is growing exponentially (cities big and small). If it works for Tesla...why not Ford or GM? They have far more money to fund a program like this...why do they need our tax dollars?

The barrier to widespread EV adoption is not lack of charging infrastructure. It's accessibility to compelling EV's (affordability-invoice price/financing). Our government should focus 100% on making compelling EV's more affordable (this includes reducing battery cost).

Tesla-Public-charging-Q3-660.jpg
 
If we want to have ev's adopted to make our cities less polluted with fumes and noise and to decrease gasoline usage then the technology that will really make a difference would be wide scale adoption of ev's with small backup gasoline engines like the Volt along with workplace charging. Range anxiety would be a non issue and 85 percent or more of gasoline miles driven would be eliminated, which is the real goal. And I believe once someone has had a few years of this driving and realizes how very little they need the gasoline engine, a pure ev vehicle would become a real choice for them in considering their next vehicle.
 
Our government should focus 100% on making compelling EV's more affordable (this includes reducing battery cost).

Batteries are the bottleneck-This is one critical area where Ontario/Canada should spend our tax dollars (not necessarily Tesla-anyone who is serious about EV's) :

WE NEED 200 GIGAFACTORIES STAT!

CV_KFszUAAAXAtG.jpg


"The number of automobiles on the world's roads is on pace to double - to more than two billion - by 2030. And more likely than not, most of those cars will be burning carbon-emitting petrol or diesel fuels."
David Jolly: Sheer numbers could scuttle clean car push | Business Standard Column

ELON: Elon Musk: Gigafactories and their Need - YouTube
 
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Here are some excellent recommendations from @Peter_M-hope you don't mind me sharing here:

(Help tesla realize their vision - vote for federal ev incentives! - Page 19)

===

Hon. Catherine McKenna,
Minister or Environment and Climate Change

I am very happy to see that there is finally some real excitement, a huge jump in media attention and soon some real action from the Canadian government on climate change. I wanted to wish you the best at the COP 21 conference and encourage you to make Canada a leader in this critical issue.

I am sure you are getting tons of advice from all directions, but I would like to share my view. I think there are 3 key technologies that will together make the biggest difference in reducing greenhouse gas emissions:


  1. Renewable energy, especially solar. About 21 percent of Canada's emissions come from electricity generation (https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/...arbon_2006.png). There are great steps being made in this area, but much more could be done. As FIT program subsidies wind down (having been very successful in achieving their goals)
  2. Energy storage. As renewable energy becomes a bigger part of our electricity supply mix, we will need large-scale grid-level storage to match the irregular supply with the more predictable demand. Large-scale storage would also reduce costs and emissions by allowing energy from cleaner and cheaper sources to be stored at times of low demand for use in high-demand periods.
  3. Electric vehicles. Transportation is the source of another 30% of our emissions, and electric vehicles have been shown to be an excellent solution. The only remaining obstacles are to drive the costs down and to get manufacturers to produce more compelling EVs.

All three of these areas are good candidates for government-sponsored "nudges" -- temporary economic incentives to suppliers and consumers that make these solutions more attractive, to give them a chance to reach the volumes that deliver economies of scale, that will, in turn, remove the need for any subsidies or incentives.

The Liberal government pledged to reduce subsidies to the oil industry and apply the money instead to green initiatives. I encourage you to "think big" here and work with the provinces where needed. Some examples:


  • Remove all taxes and fees on EVs, including GST/HST/PST and license registration fees.
  • Remove all taxes on solar and wind power system installations, including materials and labour.
  • Implement a "super-off-peak" electricity rate that is much lower than the off-peak rate, or even zero (as in Texas). This rate would be in effect during the night, for example from 1am to 5am, and it would provide an additional incentive for electric vehicle users, by lowering their "fuel" cost, while also making better use of surplus or low-cost electricity generation at night. Electric cars are mostly charged at night, so this has an additional benefit of using the batteries in the whole fleet of EVs as a form of distributed energy storage.
  • As FIT programs wind down, implement "Value of Solar Tariff" rate structures that reflect the broad range of benefits that solar power bring, such as reduced transmission and distribution costs, contributing to Canada's emission reduction targets, etc.

Thank you and good luck at the conference.
 
Thanks, Ktown. How to motivate people to buy EVs is a really complex issue without easy answers. I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said in these forums and elsewhere, but it might help to pull some of these ideas together. I would break it down this way:

  1. It has to make economic sense in the mind of the buyer. On the cost side, some buyers focus on the sticker price, some focus on the monthly payment, and a few do a lifetime cost of ownership calculation. It's really the latter that actually matters, but it's hard for some people to get past a higher initial cost or monthly payment, even if they are saving money in the long run. As for the economic benefit side, it's not hard to calculate gas and maintenance savings, but people may not make the effort and often aren't inclined to trust that those future benefits will come.
  2. It's hard for someone who hasn't driven an EV for an extended period to really understand that the problems are small and the benefits are big. We all know what perceived problems I'm talking about here - "range anxiety", finding charging stations, waiting to charge, declining battery capacity, higher electrical bills. I think it's fair to say that these are all smaller problems than most non-EV-drivers think. And lots of benefits are not obvious at first, like not having to worry about fuel on normal days around town, more cargo space, better driving experience (acceleration, handling, regen).
  3. There's still a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about the environmental benefits of EVs. People tend to like counterintuitive explanations for things, so the idea that EVs are dirtier than gas cars, while totally wrong, has caught on with lots of people.
  4. Car companies are not stepping up to build compelling EVs. So far, there are a handful of "city EVs" plus Tesla. Others are coming, like the Chevy Bolt, but the pace is way too slow.
  5. Car dealers are not motivated to sell EVs, partly because of lack of knowledge, but mostly because most of their profit comes from parts and service.
This $20M charging station program tackles just a part of #2 - making people feel that they will be able to find places to charge. If the charging stations are free to use, it also helps a bit with #1.

Education (lots of it) can address #1, #2 and #3 pretty well at a low cost, but the real big problems are #4 and #5. They will require major changes to the business models of carmakers and dealers, and of course those new business models need to have at least a path to profit in the medium term. There are a few ways this could play out: Tesla and other new companies like it could claim the EV market, while the other carmakers gradually die off because they couldn't adapt. Or some of the incumbents may see the need to change and adapt quickly enough to survive. I'm not really sure how existing dealers could have a place in this, unless the manufacturers help them rebalance their profit away from service, towards new car sales. Maybe fixed-price selling (like Tesla) with predictable margins for a dealer would work, along with reasonable margins for the reduced service, but in the end, dealers will make less money, since they will be doing less.

As for how governments can help, probably the best bang for the buck is on the education front - teach people how EVs are better, can save them money and can save the environment. But the biggest amount of money should go to addressing the biggies - helping/pushing carmakers and dealers to sell EVs. This could come in the form of incentives to build factories, like in Nevada, removing restrictive dealer legislation, setting fleet-wide emission limits, etc. And they can also do many things to tip the economic balance - removing taxes and registration fees on EVs, making night-time electricity cheaper, installing free charging stations, providing free parking, requiring that condo/apartment owners allow charging station installations at cost...

Put simply, consumer demand will be there once people are educated, but the supply side needs to be pushed.