Ontario to invest $20 million in stations to charge up electric cars

[wayner]

Renewable energy, especially solar. About 21 percent of Canada's emissions come from electricity generation (https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/...arbon_2006.png). There are great steps being made in this area, but much more could be done. As FIT program subsidies wind down (having been very successful in achieving their goals)

This data is rather out of date now - the link is to data from 2006! That's years before Ontario phased out coal, to name just one initiative.

I wonder how much of Canada's GHG's still come from electricity generation? Here in Ontario the only carbon comes from NatGas generation and that is small proportion of the generation capacity (as I write this 4.8% of our power comes from NatGas and CO2 intensity is 23g/kWh). Isn't Quebec primarily hydro-electric? Same for BC? That leaves Alberta and the other provinces which represent a pretty small proportion of the overall population.

 

[mknox]

What will encourage EV adoption is high speed charging and long range EVs, not a bunch of low power connectors at grocery stores a block from home.

Organizations like Plug 'n Drive in Ontario amongst others have found that destinations chargers at malls, grocery stores etc. are in fact needed to spur adoption even though it is widely known that EV owners will do most, if not all of their local charging at home. It's a chicken and egg thing. People need to see visible charging infrastructure everywhere before they are willing to take the plunge.

Personally, I'd like to see emphasis placed on Level 3 charging between cities and on Level 2 workplace charging.

 

[Peter_M]

This data is rather out of date now - the link is to data from 2006! That's years before Ontario phased out coal, to name just one initiative.

I wonder how much of Canada's GHG's still come from electricity generation? Here in Ontario the only carbon comes from NatGas generation and that is small proportion of the generation capacity (as I write this 4.8% of our power comes from NatGas and CO2 intensity is 23g/kWh). Isn't Quebec primarily hydro-electric? Same for BC? That leaves Alberta and the other provinces which represent a pretty small proportion of the overall population.

Yes, that LLNL chart is old, and they seem to only have charts for the US now.

Canadian data for 2013 shows that transportation contributes 23% and electricity generation is 12%. So there has been great progress on electricity generation, but as of 2013 it was still tied for 3rd biggest sector for emissions. Likely by now it has dropped to 4th. The oil and gas industry are the biggest at 25%.

And the chart by province shows that emissions from the prairie provinces have been climbing while the rest have dropped. For example, 90% of Alberta's electricity comes from fossil fuels; in Saskatchewan it's 73%. This is where solar can make a difference. And even in Ontario, more solar along with energy storage will eventually be able to replace the remaining natural gas generation.

 

[wayner]

And the chart by province shows that emissions from the prairie provinces have been climbing while the rest have dropped. For example, 90% of Alberta's electricity comes from fossil fuels; in Saskatchewan it's 73%. This is where solar can make a difference. And even in Ontario, more solar along with energy storage will eventually be able to replace the remaining natural gas generation.

Of that 73% from fossil in Sask NatGas is over a third which helps. And Saskatchewan is the best place in the country for solar, at least according to this map, so they should get on with that:

 

[green1]

Organizations like Plug 'n Drive in Ontario amongst others have found that destinations chargers at malls, grocery stores etc. are in fact needed to spur adoption even though it is widely known that EV owners will do most, if not all of their local charging at home. It's a chicken and egg thing. People need to see visible charging infrastructure everywhere before they are willing to take the plunge.

Personally, I'd like to see emphasis placed on Level 3 charging between cities and on Level 2 workplace charging.

Destination chargers at every corner store are only needed because the big automakers refuse to make a long range EV. Teslas have no use for those. A Tesla owner wants L3 charging between cities, and L2 at every hotel, hostel, and campground. (I'll admit to wanting some other ones around towns for when I'm staying with a friend who doesn't have a convenient plug, but not at some store that says I can only use it while in the store and that charges at 20A, I want them charging at 80A and be located somewhere I can park for several hours)

sure those destination chargers help with perception, but I'm not certain what perception it helps, the "chargers are everywhere" perception, or the "EVs are so useless they can't even go to the corner store without being able to plug in" perception.

 

[S'toon]

Of that 73% from fossil in Sask NatGas is over a third which helps. And Saskatchewan is the best place in the country for solar, at least according to this map, so they should get on with that:

The vast majority of SK's power comes from coal, locally mined. The SK Party's plan was to deal with this was to use carbon capture and storage. So they spent $1.5 BILLION of taxpayer's money putting a carbon capture and storage facility on one smoke stack of the Boundary Dam power plant. The slurry made is used to recover oil from marginal oil wells. They've gone around the world touting the technology. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. So we've spent $1.5 billion on a technology that doesn't work, is used to increase carbon from oil, and now because we can't deliver the slurry, we have to pay a penalty to the oil companies. And Brad Wall is still touting the CCS, even though it doesn't work.

Until the last couple of weeks, Brad Wall has actively resisted renewable energy investment, pointing to CCS as all we need.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Destination chargers at every corner store are only needed because the big automakers refuse to make a long range EV. Teslas have no use for those. A Tesla owner wants L3 charging between cities, and L2 at every hotel, hostel, and campground. (I'll admit to wanting some other ones around towns for when I'm staying with a friend who doesn't have a convenient plug, but not at some store that says I can only use it while in the store and that charges at 20A, I want them charging at 80A and be located somewhere I can park for several hours)

sure those destination chargers help with perception, but I'm not certain what perception it helps, the "chargers are everywhere" perception, or the "EVs are so useless they can't even go to the corner store without being able to plug in" perception.

Very well said! I will add, please do not use our tax dollars on useless charging infrastructure. Luckily the private sector is happy to make that investment as a PR initiative:

TD launches courtesy electric vehicle charging initiative in B.C.
Read more at TD launches courtesy electric vehicle charging initiative in B.C.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

These are all things I've said Ontario/Canada should be doing here. China is off and running:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56805-Is-Ontario-destined-to-become-a-relic-of-the-auto-industry

The China Association of Automobile Manufactures shared that annual EV sales figures in China are estimated to top 220,000 in 2015, surpassing the US as the top EV-purchasing country by volume, notes a recent Forbes article. This is largely due to the heavy government subsidies for electric vehicles, which can be as high as $16,000 (USD) with local governments typically matching federal subsidies.

In parallel to the EV sales explosion, the battery business in China is booming, with the overall market expected to increase 4 times over by 2017, with most major producers increasing production capacity in support of the burgeoning EV market. Quality and chemistry improvements are key focal points moving forward, as the current expected battery life is a terrible 3–8 years.

China On Track to Lead Global EV Sales in 2015 | CleanTechnica

 

[mknox]

Teslas have no use for those. A Tesla owner wants L3 charging between cities, and L2 at every hotel, hostel, and campground.

As a Tesla owner, I agree, but not everyone wants or can afford a Tesla.

sure those destination chargers help with perception, but I'm not certain what perception it helps, the "chargers are everywhere" perception, or the "EVs are so useless they can't even go to the corner store without being able to plug in" perception.

Studies and surveys have shown people want to see the charging infrastructure before they'll take the plunge. It's kinda like how diesel adoption was originally slow because no one knew where to go to get fuel for their cars. I don't think it's the "can't go anywhere without plugging in" scenario. There are gas stations everywhere and I don't think that perception exists for gas cars.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

As a Tesla owner, I agree, but not everyone wants or can afford a Tesla.

But how long until they can? If Model 3 and Bolt deliver on time (not likely, I know...but if they do) most people will be able to afford a 200 mile EV (assuming they meet promoted range). Then most of this charging infrastructure will be useless. Battery tech is improving and prices are falling...Tesla's infrastructure is a glimpse into the future...hopefully not too distant.

- - - Updated - - -

Studies and surveys have shown people want to see the charging infrastructure before they'll take the plunge. It's kinda like how diesel adoption was originally slow because no one knew where to go to get fuel for their cars. I don't think it's the "can't go anywhere without plugging in" scenario. There are gas stations everywhere and I don't think that perception exists for gas cars.

I believe you could have chargers at every parking spot in the province, it still wouldn't change this reality (see post #2 for true example). This is the real issue:

New York Times: A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

 

[Ktowntslafan]

BIG AUTO DOES NOT WANT TO SELL EV's! $20M in charging infrastructure will not change that:

The “Father of the Chevy Volt” Bob Lutz said a capital-strained auto industry is making unprofitable cars to satisfy regulators, and he’d be “surprised and shocked” if the 2017 Chevy Bolt is profitable.
“I no longer have access to General Motors figures, but I would be surprised and shocked if the 200-mile electric Bolt is going to make money,” said Lutz at an Automotive Newsroundtable discussion held in August. “You look at the cost per kilowatt hour of batteries and the number of kilowatt hours they have got in there and then you look at the selling price. It’s just not going to work.

Bob Lutz Said Electrified Vehicles Can Be Big Money Losers

And later in the article:

“I don’t know if anybody noticed, but full-size sport-utilities used to be — just a few years ago used to be $42,000, all in, fully equipped. You can’t touch a Chevy Tahoe for under about $65 [thousand] now,” he said. “Yukons are in the $70 [thousands]. The Escalade comfortably hits $100 [thousand]. Three or four years ago they were about $60,000. What this is, is companies trying to recover what they’re losing at the other end with what I call compliance vehicles, which are Chevy Volts, Bolts, plug-in Cadillacs and fuel cell vehicles.”


Better, said Lutz, would be collaborative agreements between carmakers, and for the past several years even former competitors have been partnering to share costs and intellectual property on advanced technology intended to save fuel and cut emissions.
“Yeah,” said Lutz, “Just do one fuel cell vehicle and have about six companies each participate in the architecture so that at least they might attain a volume of maybe 100,000, so that everybody can have their 5,000 or 6,000, which they’re going to need to comply with California.”

LOL, get the sense that Big Auto hates California?



- - - Updated - - -

Top-down trouble

While salesmanship certainly plays a role in getting the cars off the lot, Saxton notes that the problem in educating consumers may lie in the vehicles themselves: Not all EVs are the same. He defines three levels of EVs now being produced by automakers: compliance cars, conquest cars, and EVs created by manufacturers who are serious about the technology.

Compliance cars Saxton defines as those that the automakers create simply to satisfy requirements in California and the other zero emission vehicles (ZEVs) states that obligate manufacturers to reach a certain number of credits for the number of cars produced and sold in state. “Some automakers are just making cars to satisfy that. That’s the lowest level,” he says.

Conquest cars, meanwhile, aim to use the most exciting technology available. “They’re cool, new and high-tech. They make people think the automaker is technologically sophisticated. But they’re just there to get people in the showroom and then have them buy a gas car instead,” Saxton explains.

Ultimately, Saxton sees Nissan and BMW as the automakers best suited for selling quality EVs that are practical for drivers. Tesla, of course, is doing so as well, but its cars do not have to compete with gasoline-powered cars on the showroom floor.

The Fuse | Why Car Dealerships Struggle With Selling Electric Vehicles

 

[mknox]

But how long until they can? If Model 3 and Bolt deliver on time (not likely, I know...but if they do) most people will be able to afford a 200 mile EV (assuming they meet promoted range). Then most of this charging infrastructure will be useless. Battery tech is improving and prices are falling...Tesla's infrastructure is a glimpse into the future...hopefully not too distant.

I actually think there is going to be a place for shorter distance "city" cars in addition to longer range vehicles. It may very well be that people migrate to less expensive and smaller electric city cars and use other forms of transportation for longer trips. The province is also very interested in electrification of busses and rail, for instance.

 

[Breezy]

The “Father of the Chevy Volt” Bob Lutz said a capital-strained auto industry is making unprofitable cars to satisfy regulators, and he’d be “surprised and shocked” if the 2017 Chevy Bolt is profitable.
“I no longer have access to General Motors figures, but I would be surprised and shocked if the 200-mile electric Bolt is going to make money,” said Lutz at an Automotive Newsroundtable discussion held in August.

Bob's out of touch. He says on one hand that he doesn't have access to GM's figures (obviously), but despite that he just knows that the Bolt can't be profitable.

Batteries used to be too expensive to make a car like the Bolt or the Model 3 profitable.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I actually think there is going to be a place for shorter distance "city" cars in addition to longer range vehicles. It may very well be that people migrate to less expensive and smaller electric city cars and use other forms of transportation for longer trips. The province is also very interested in electrification of busses and rail, for instance.

Great on the buses and rail. China is all over E-buses right now. I think it should be a tri-level government bulk purchase for cost savings.

The best thing gov can do right now is transition it's own fleet to EV's. Again, a bulk deal negotiated at the Fed level. That would have an impact-but must go to a supplier making an honest effort towards EV (Nissan/Tesla).

 

[Jaff]

Agree.

Going forward, he should try to refrain from headlines that include both his name and the word "loser"...:wink:

Bob's out of touch. He says on one hand that he doesn't have access to GM's figures (obviously), but despite that he just knows that the Bolt can't be profitable.

Batteries used to be too expensive to make a car like the Bolt or the Model 3 profitable.

 

[SmartElectric]

may very well be that people migrate to less expensive and smaller electric city cars and use other forms of transportation for longer trips

Well, I drive a Smart ED to work, and we take my wife's Tesla everywhere else, but yes, small electric city cars are a blast to drive and easy to park/manoeuvre.

Ref:
Smart ED and CPO Tesla S85 in Toronto

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Well, I drive a Smart ED to work, and we take my wife's Tesla everywhere else, but yes, small electric city cars are a blast to drive and easy to park/manoeuvre.

Ref:
Smart ED and CPO Tesla S85 in Toronto

Who knows...maybe we'll all be cruising E-Tricycles in the city:

Your Urban Vehicle of the Future Might Be an Electric Tricycle

New E-Tricycle Could Nudge City Dwellers Out of Their Cars | MIT Technology Review

 

[Ktowntslafan]

California should know best (second only to Norway of course)

The problem, Brown says, is money. “It costs more to buy an electric car, period,” Brown said. “The cost is the barrier. It seems like the only policy is to put out more incentives, more money.”

California falling behind in clean vehicles race

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Five years after the first modern mass-market electric car launched, stories of recalcitrant car dealers continue to surface from buyers.
Walk into a dealership, explain that you want to buy an electric car ... and then endure a litany of reasons why you don't.
But a meticulously documented, amusing written log of all the misery involved in discussions with a particularly unhelpful Nissan dealer focuses new light on the problem.

How Bad Was Nissan Dealer When Buyer Wanted A Leaf Electric Car? THAT Bad

 

[Ktowntslafan]

December 21, 2015 12:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
NASHVILLE, Tenn. & WOODCLIFF LAKE, N.J.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nissan and BMW are joining forces to offer public fast charging at 120 locations across 19 states in an effort to support Nissan LEAF and BMW i3 customers and to promote increased adoption of electric vehicles (EVs) nationwide.

Nissan and BMW partner to deploy dual fast chargers across the U.S. to benefit electric vehicle drivers | Business Wire

Bravo Nissan/BMW...why don't they do the same in Ontario?