My road trip experience and why the future of EV's depends on it getting better

[DFibRL8R]

Interesting thread, thanks for posting.
Tesla's problems with flaky nav are certainly not unique. I have yet to find a navigation system that gets it "right" every time but the Tesla is very good compared to many and the big screen makes it way better to use on the go.
My first Model S road trip involved a 5 hour stop at a museum, an overnight in a KOA and an after hours stop at a department store's J1772. Things have certainly gotten much better!
Despite being an enthusiastic early adopter I agree that being forced to stop based on where your EV needs to stop for a charge can be inconvenient. In Plymouth, NC I hope you and your passengers like Bojangles because that's the only option:biggrin:. Having a nice variety of food or shopping options really goes a long way towards improving the experience but has not always been an option as Tesla negotiates sites.

 

[MichFin]

Last weekend we had to stop at Angola, IN and all that was there was a Ramada Inn with a restaurant. It was the only supercharger out of the 4 we stopped at that was a letdown. The stop in South Bend was great since it was a mall but having to drive 15 minutes off the highway and another 15 minutes back on was a bit of a drag. The positive is meeting other Tesla owners and hearing their experiences. I realize that I'm an early adopter so its a bit fun being on the cutting edge and I realize that I have it much better than just a few years ago.

 

[jaguar36]

I completely disagree with having state funded chargers. The government should not be in the business of fueling cars, gas, electric or whatever else there is. The government should not be choosing a fuel, let alone a particular charging standard. The government should be issuing high level requirements, and let the market figure out the best way to meet them.

Tesla is perfectly capable of building a supercharger network that will meet the needs of its customers. Currently they've built 1 supercharger for every 175 or so cars, if they keep at that pace there will be superchargers everywhere in a few years. They've *mostly* covered the US in less than 2 years. Thats a ridiculously impressive task and in a few more years they can get to that 600 number without issue. That many SCs combined with more destination charging makes roadtrips a cakewalk requiring no more planning than in a ICE car.

The biggest thing the government can do is get out of the way. A huge time and cost driver in getting the superchargers setup is getting them approved by the various government agencies. Let Tesla, or anyone else install chargers at government owned sites like rest stops.

 

[techmaven]

The biggest thing the government can do is get out of the way. A huge time and cost driver in getting the superchargers setup is getting them approved by the various government agencies. Let Tesla, or anyone else install chargers at government owned sites like rest stops.

Actually, the biggest thing government can do is force the most local form of government, homeowner's and condo associations to allow the installation of destination charging. Similar to the issues with small dish satellite and the ongoing issue of solar panel installations. Then, it does require government to set up the right kinds of incentives, as the current structure in many ways has disincentives that government can help level the playing field.

 

[MichFin]

i don't know if you've noticed this but the government has been involved in choosing fuel and how cars should be built.

They have tax credits for EV's
They have tax credits for installing charging stations
they have fuel efficiency standards
They have EV credits
They have Department of Energy low interest loans


If it wasn't for this kick start EV's would be years away. This would be just another kick start on the infrastructure side.

 

[mknox]

Last weekend we had to stop at Angola, IN and all that was there was a Ramada Inn with a restaurant. It was the only supercharger out of the 4 we stopped at that was a letdown. The stop in South Bend was great since it was a mall but having to drive 15 minutes off the highway and another 15 minutes back on was a bit of a drag. The positive is meeting other Tesla owners and hearing their experiences. I realize that I'm an early adopter so its a bit fun being on the cutting edge and I realize that I have it much better than just a few years ago.

I've used Angola and Mishawaka several times. I hate how you can see the Mishawaka Superchargers from the Interstate, but you have to drive, as you say, such a long convoluted route just to get to them! Every time I've been at those two, I have been the only Tesla in sight. I did have a guy in an ICE drive up to me at the University Park Mall to talk about the car, however.

 

[miimura]

A reliable combo 50/62 kW CHAdeMO/CCS EVSE is in the neighborhood of $35,000, plus another $10,000 roughly in install costs. Let's say each charge, on average, was 30 kWh (assuming all Model S, Bolt, other 40+ kWh battery pack cars). To make $10 profit per charge, the cost for the profit alone is $0.33 per kWh. Add the cost of electricity + billing, we're talking charging $0.55-1.00 per kWh, not including demand charges. At 12 customers a day, $10 profit per charge, 365 days a year, that would pay off the install costs in a year. However, that assumes the plug is busy around 11 hours a day every day. In order to make the charging experience reasonable, the actual utilization rates have to be far lower in order to handle peak demands. Which means the utilization rate is more like 10 or 20% of that. Which means the stations won't make back their install costs in 5+ years even charging $0.55/kWh at the lowest electricity rates. At 5+ years, we're talking 2020+. Do you really believe that a 50 kW EVSE will be a viable/desirable charging unit in 2020?

Further, most of the existing CHAdeMO/CCS EVSE's are installed with 100 kW peak rate limits at 500 volts. Which means 75-80 kW. An upgrade beyond 80 kW means updating the plug, the charging cable, the AC -> DC rectifiers, and the power cable from the transformer. Maybe even the cabinet. That's basically everything except some concrete and conduit work. Now, if they were installing wiring and components capable of 150 kW rates, then ok... but that isn't what is going on. Further, almost all of these installs are for 1 or 2 plugs and the site prep work isn't done for scaling out to more plugs. Which means congestion is always going to be frustrating.

I was surprised when I learned that EVgo was doubling up their charging stations after the SAE Combo chargers became available last year. With little extra infrastructure work, they went from a single 44kW CHAdeMO plus one or two J1772's to a full site that had a dedicated 44kW CHAdeMO plus a 50kW CHAdemo/SAE Combo charger plus the J1772's. So, clearly they planned to pull at least 100kW per site. The question to me is whether they planned for 250kW per site. If they could add a 200A DCFC (the highest current defined in the standards, 60-100kW useful power) to the existing array of chargers, then they would have something that could be reasonably relied upon for long distance traveling.

I think the site operators are amortizing the installation, especially trenching and utility setup fees over something more like 20 years. Any equipment like a DCFC unit should have a useful life of 10 years. You may not want to use it due to obsolescence, but it should be repairable and depreciated over that time. So, let's say you recover installation costs at $1,500 per year for 20 years, and you recover $75,000 of equipment (2 DCFC units) over 10 years. That's $9,000 per year. EVgo charges $10.95 per 30 minute session for occasional users. Let's say that requires 20kWh of power at $0.40/kWh including demand charges, etc. That is $8 of electricity per session, which leaves $2.95 per session to pay off the equipment. You would need 3,050 sessions per year across two DCFC units to recover your annual costs. That is only 4.2 charge sessions per charger per day. Additional paid usage would be required to pay for maintenance, network operations, billing, etc.

 

[Bet TSLA]

I realize that I'm an early adopter so its a bit fun being on the cutting edge and I realize that I have it much better than just a few years ago.

Um, you're not an early adopter. You're nowhere near the cutting edge. What you are is somebody who has just started down the EV path and you are seeing some obvious problems from your own perspective. Your ideas are nothing new, mostly unworkable or useless, and have been discussed in various guises for years ad nauseum. To the extent they have any relevance it is because some things are obvious. Tesla people have thought of, tried, and discarded endless variants. Sorry.

Just enjoy the car, put up with the annoyances, and realize that today is the worst the experience will ever be. It just keeps getting better.

 

[TexasEV]

Um, you're not an early adopter. You're nowhere near the cutting edge. What you are is somebody who has just started down the EV path and you are seeing some obvious problems from your own perspective. Your ideas are nothing new, mostly unworkable or useless, and have been discussed in various guises for years ad nauseum. To the extent they have any relevance it is because some things are obvious. Tesla people have thought of, tried, and discarded endless variants. Sorry.

Just enjoy the car, put up with the annoyances, and realize that today is the worst the experience will ever be. It just keeps getting better.

Tell him how you really feel!
Someone buying a Tesla or other EV now in California isn't an early adopter, but in Michigan most people have never seen an electric car much less considered buying one. I think there are about 100 Teslas in the entire state. You probably have that many in your zip code.

 

[dsm363]

Um, you're not an early adopter. You're nowhere near the cutting edge. What you are is somebody who has just started down the EV path and you are seeing some obvious problems from your own perspective. Your ideas are nothing new, mostly unworkable or useless, and have been discussed in various guises for years ad nauseum. To the extent they have any relevance it is because some things are obvious. Tesla people have thought of, tried, and discarded endless variants. Sorry.

Just enjoy the car, put up with the annoyances, and realize that today is the worst the experience will ever be. It just keeps getting better.

mod note: please be more respectful of other members.

 

[paulkva]

As for DC L3 charging, they are expensive. Freaking expensive.

This is a key point, I think, and begs the question: Could Tesla (or anyone else) spur installation of L3 charging by somehow driving down its costs substantially? Maybe I'm crazy to think it could be done. Maybe it's a matter of driving down the costs of batteries and solar panels, which Tesla and SolarCity are already trying to do -- though adding batteries & solar to a charging location won't reduce installation costs, it'll raise them, at least for the next few years. Maybe it's a matter of adding demand -- i.e. delivering more EVs -- but that's the chicken & egg problem that I've seen discussed on these forums many times already. I have to believe Tesla is already at least thinking about this question, as it directly affects how much they spend on each supercharger.

I don't know nearly enough about charging equipment/standards, electric infrastructure/utilities, or construction costs/methods to have any meaningful suggestions, unfortunately. Whatever it is, it would likely have to be at least as ambitious as the Gigafactory.

I think this question is at most tangential to the government vs. private funding debate going on in this thread, which I don't plan to dive into. But I'm pretty certain the cost of L3, regardless of type or who's paying, is playing a major role in slowing down EV infrastructure development.

 

[techmaven]

I think the site operators are amortizing the installation, especially trenching and utility setup fees over something more like 20 years. Any equipment like a DCFC unit should have a useful life of 10 years. You may not want to use it due to obsolescence, but it should be repairable and depreciated over that time. So, let's say you recover installation costs at $1,500 per year for 20 years, and you recover $75,000 of equipment (2 DCFC units) over 10 years. That's $9,000 per year. EVgo charges $10.95 per 30 minute session for occasional users. Let's say that requires 20kWh of power at $0.40/kWh including demand charges, etc. That is $8 of electricity per session, which leaves $2.95 per session to pay off the equipment. You would need 3,050 sessions per year across two DCFC units to recover your annual costs. That is only 4.2 charge sessions per charger per day. Additional paid usage would be required to pay for maintenance, network operations, billing, etc.

I think there is no way you can realistically amortize a 50kW (125 amp) or even a 100 kW (200 amp) DC EVSE for 20 years. Obviously, the CFO can do that, but realistically, this is a stranded asset. The cost of upgrade is huge, almost the cost of the site itself on a per plug basis. They are likely putting in infrastructure for 200 amp per plug and with two plugs, that's 400 amps. Let's say the site has 500 amps available. The problem is, real SAE Level 3 DC spec is 200 to 400 amps. Tesla's is currently 340 amps. But whatever revision coming to CHAdeMO/CCS is likely to go between 300 and 400 amps per plug (150 kW real world, 200 kW nominal). That means new transformers, new wiring, potentially new chassis for each and every existing CCS or CHAdeMO charging location, or they are going to be significantly underpowered. There is already consternation between Tesla owners if a Supercharging site is not delivering 120 kW. Imagine the efforts of sorting out which are 45 kW, 75 kW or 150kW. I just don't think there is much lifespan on a DC charging station at less than 100 kW real world speed. Even the initial Tesla Supercharging stations will need to be expanded out - at least Tesla can justify the expense as part of their selling their vehicles. I don't know how an independent provider goes about doing this.

I think people will avoid any 45-75 kW DC EVSE's like the plague within 2-4 years, especially having to pay $0.50 to $1.00 per kW or worse, metered based on time. To amortize beyond 5 years is reckless from a financial point of view.

 

[miimura]

Interesting story today: NRG eVgo Electric-Car Fast Chargers Future-Proofed To 100 KW

While other networks continue to roll out DC fast-charging stations in the 20-kilowatt range, the eVgo network currently has no stations below 44 kW.

"The very near future suggests that anything below 50 kW" will not be considered fast charging, eVgo's Brendan Jones told Charged EVs in a recent interview.

I think the article's author, Stephen Edelstein, made the statement about "no stations below 44kW", not the NRG rep. Meanwhile, members on the MyVWeGolf forum have documented eVgo charging stations that are limited to 50A DC and are not compatible with the e-Golf. That is only 15kW to 20kW output to today's EVs that have pack voltages between 300 and 400VDC.

 

[MichFin]

If you take a Tesla super charger station and add a credit card terminal and charge by the KWH. Then you add plugs to each bay for Chademo and CCS. Then whichever car pulls up puts in their credit card grabs the appropriate cable and plugs in.

I'm no expert on the hardware but I imagine once you have 300+ amps available to you you can reduce the output to meet any car that pulls up. The software API for each car and cable is easy to update and the cables are relatively cheap.

As for people that worry about a leaf plugged in for 4 hours. I can't imagine too many cars with 100 mile range going on road trips. That would be real painful.

 

[TexasEV]

As for people that worry about a leaf plugged in for 4 hours. I can't imagine too many cars with 100 mile range going on road trips. That would be real painful.

That's exactly why this is a solution looking for a problem. Tesla doesn't have the bandwidth to develop things that have minimal benefit, and especially that wouldn't directly benefit Tesla.

 

[MichFin]

"That's exactly why this is a solution looking for a problem'

The problem already exists... While going on road trips is doable it's a real pain in the butt because the superchargers are spread out so far. Then you have the fact that there are going to be 10 times more LONG RANGE EV's in the next 4 years. Currently 50k Teslas in US and you can see that number grow to 250k in 3-4 years add the Bolt and Nissan sales and you can easily get to 500k long range EV's in 4 years.

 

[LetsGoFast]

Um, you're not an early adopter. You're nowhere near the cutting edge.

Actually, I'm pretty sure we are all still well in the "early adopter" phase. The term was coined by Everett Rogers and his theory would have early adopters constituting 13.5% of the population (they follow the innovators to new ideas, whio are a mere 2.5% of the population). I'd argue that the Roadster and early Model S owners fell into the innovator category and everyone else buying Model S cars still being well into "early adopter" territory. The textbook definition seems exactly on point for the OP: "Typically this will be a customer who, in addition to using the vendor's product or technology, will also provide considerable and candid feedback to help the vendor refine its future product releases, as well as the associated means of distribution, service, and support."

 

[AB4EJ]

That's not the key, that's the reason why this plan wouldn't happen. It took two years for superchargers to open on the New Jersey Turnpike, and that was with Tesla building them and paying for them on state land. If states needed to fund them too, we would all still be driving ICE cars.

It's even worse than that; many states don't see it as one of their missions to promote EVs (too many voters & campaign contributors who are in oil & coal industries). Besides, a lot of states have such budget problems that they couldn't fund charging sites if they wanted to. The most you can hope for is for the states not to interfere too much.

- - - Updated - - -

If you take a Tesla super charger station and add a credit card terminal and charge by the KWH. Then you add plugs to each bay for Chademo and CCS. Then whichever car pulls up puts in their credit card grabs the appropriate cable and plugs in.

I'm no expert on the hardware but I imagine once you have 300+ amps available to you you can reduce the output to meet any car that pulls up. The software API for each car and cable is easy to update and the cables are relatively cheap.

As for people that worry about a leaf plugged in for 4 hours. I can't imagine too many cars with 100 mile range going on road trips. That would be real painful.

There are several videos about people driving across England (here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjhz7KCVZFM ) using a LEAF, and yes it is a painful experience even when using rapid charging. It takes on epic dimensions to travel across a country that is slightly smaller then the state of New York.

 

[JohnQ]

But there's already a solution for this problem, if you can call it that. Manufacturers can engage with Tesla to ensure their vehicles are compatible with superchargers and can pay the price of entry ... building a set number themselves or contributing a fixed amount per vehicle so Tesla can continue the rollout. Yet no one has been willing so far. Why should Tesla shoulder the burden you've described when they've already created a path?

You raise the issue about a 300 mile round trip business trip? I have done that 1-2 times a month in a Tesla for over 2 years. Long before there was a supercharger on my preferred route. Range charge, drive 170 miles, plug in at a 30A charger where I park, work for 9 hours, get in the car and drive home. Worked every time with temperatures ranging from 95F to 0F, rain and snow, at average highway speed of 75 mph (except the 20 miles of traffic each way near Boston). What if I had to leave early for an emergency? Well, I was right and truly screwed in that case. But it hasn't happened in over 30 trips and now there are two superchargers on the route to address that issue as well.

EVs simply require additional planning and that won't change without a radical improvement in battery chemistry that either allows faster charging without impacting the cells or better energy density allowing much more range. At a reasonable cost, of course. Even if there are 100 superchargers available on my 500 mile drive I still have to stop and charge for a longer period of time than gassing up an ICE. Of course, I can also charge overnight, have fantastic one pedal driving and instantaneous power. Like everything else, there are trade-offs.

 

[mmccord]

EVs simply require additional planning and that won't change without a radical improvement in battery chemistry that either allows faster charging without impacting the cells or better energy density allowing much more range. At a reasonable cost, of course. Even if there are 100 superchargers available on my 500 mile drive I still have to stop and charge for a longer period of time than gassing up an ICE. Of course, I can also charge overnight, have fantastic one pedal driving and instantaneous power. Like everything else, there are trade-offs.

After two months of ownership, I've truly come to appreciate the time-savings of driving my S. A lot of non-owners ask me how long it takes to charge on road-trips and such, and it is true that supercharger speed is not nearly as fast as filling a gas tank. They fail to realize how infrequent such trips are. I usually ask them how many times per year they leave the house in their ICE with a full tank of gas, and then need to buy gas that same day. Usually this is fewer than 5 times per year. (Everyone's driving pattern is different, but let's not focus on outliers here).

Anyway, the point is, this car saves me going to the gas station for ~10 minutes 2 times a week (this always seems to be when it's least convenient too, like when I'm late for a morning meeting). That's 1000 minutes/year, or 17 hours.

If I have to stop for a few hours to charge on our summer road-trips, so be it.

P.S. Gas-stations are dirty, vile places too.
P.P.S. Buying gas is expensive.
P.P.P.S. Does it seem stupid to anyone else that we have to refine the gasoline, pump it into a tank, out of a tank, into a truck, burn Diesel to deliver the gasoline to the station, pump it out of the truck into another tank, then out of that tank into a car to burn it? Electricity seems so much easier to deliver.