Model S vs. E63 AMG Mercedes 0-110 mph race

[Johan]

In the thread about MSP vs. M5 as well as in the thread about Rimac Concept_One the question of gearing (multiple gears) on a performance EV has come up. It is one of the big challenges if you want your SuperEV to be not only SuperQuick but also SuperFast. I'm aware of how gearboxes were failing left and right in the first gen. Roadster with it's (only) 2, albeit traditional, fixed gears. But not a lot of people ever talk about the possibilty of using CVT - continuous variable transmission. I know why these have had limited sucess in ICEs, but they have been mass produced and proven reliable (Audi, Lexus, Honda). Now with the electric drivetrain and the way it achieves 100% torque from early on I don't see why a performance electric motor with a performance CVT isn't a match made in heaven??? Or maybe I'm missing something?

 

[AustinPowers]

Now with the electric drivetrain and the way it achieves 100% torque from early on I don't see why a performance electric motor with a performance CVT isn't a match made in heaven??? Or maybe I'm missing something?

I was thinking around the same lines, but I am sure Tesla with its years of experience would have thought about that as well. There must have been a reason they didn't go that way.

And about my comments earlier on about the Model S performance and range at Autobahn speeds: it doesn't matter what I personally think about it. It is far more important for Tesla's success what the general public, that is supposed to buy the car here, thinks. Just saying "if you want to drive the car on the Autobahn like you did your ICE, then the Model S is probably not for you" doesn't really help to boost sales. I mean, when you are offered to buy a car for around 100k Euro that is supposed to be "as good as an ICE, if not better" then you set quite high expectations to begin with. That might not be a problem in Norway, where the car is heaviliy subsidized and speed limits are very rigorous around the country, or in Benelux, where travelling distances are quite short. But in countries like UK, France, Germany, Spain etc. where cars of such a caliber are used for long distance travel on a routine basis, limited range at said speeds is a distinct sales disadvantage. Especially as the S is so much more expensive here than in the US, Norway or the Netherlands.

 

[VolkerP]

It is a fact that an ICE can go longer at higher speeds and that will never change.

The more power an ICE has to deliver, the more efficient it becomes. An EV is alwats very efficient and the faster you go, the shorter your range will get.

This will never change. So if you love to fly over the Autobahn at ~180km/h, buy a cool BMW 530d or something.

Careful with that never word, Sir :wink:. I remember MB 300D introduction with a blazing 88hp, when everybody said that Diesel engines would go nowhere in a car, never. And today you name a 3L diesel engine as top of the pop!

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

That's definitely NOT Mexico, unless street signs there say "Bike Lane" and "Speed Limit 45" in English, and in mph, not kph. Looks like Florida to me -- maybe up in Palm Beach county somewhere.

HOMG! Street Racing in Florida!?!? Scandalous!! *Clutches Pearls*

 

[ElSupreme]

That's definitely NOT Mexico, unless street signs there say "Bike Lane" and "Speed Limit 45" in English, and in mph, not kph. Looks like Florida to me -- maybe up in Palm Beach county somewhere.

I agree looks like S Florida.

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HOMG! Street Racing in Florida!?!? Scandalous!! *Clutches Pearls*

Hell I was stopped at on the Gandy Bridge in Tampa one night for about 20 minutes because people were stopped and blocking for others racing on the bridge. Not really all that uncommon.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

I agree looks like S Florida.

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Hell I was stopped at on the Gandy Bridge in Tampa one night for about 20 minutes because people were stopped and blocking for others racing on the bridge. Not really all that uncommon.

My feeling has always been that as long as its an open highway, with no crossings and no other cars within 200 yards, its not really that big a deal. Especially if none of those other cars is a cop.

Quite a bit more dangerous for the participants than racing at a drag strip, and you certainly deserve any punishment you get if you get caught. But I've taken the occasional car out to empty highways in the Mojave just to see what they can do. Street racing in an urban environment is a terrible idea though, as it risks property damage and the lives of the general public. Anyone doing that certainly deserves jail time.

 

[Hache]

I don't see why a performance electric motor with a performance CVT isn't a match made in heaven??? Or maybe I'm missing something?

The Furtive e-gt is using a 3 gears gearbox.

Green Car Congress: Furtive eGT electric sports car hits 240 km/h on the Nordschleife; small production series for 2013

The liquid-cooled motors are centrally mounted and linked up with a novel WCT (Without Cut Torque) three-speed gearbox, which harmonizes well with the Siemens’ control strategy for rapid shifting. On each gear change, one of the two motors continues to transmit power to the wheels. This process avoids any break in torque to maintain power in all circumstances. Furthermore, the motors function continuously within their optimum range of power and efficiency, enabling the vehicle to take full advantage of their power and to increase energy efficiency.

The engineers of Exagon Motors developed this gearbox specially for an electric motor. Unlike other supercars fitted with sequential gearboxes, the Furtive-eGT runs no risk of the clutch breaking in the event of violent acceleration. It is designed for use without a clutch, either in manual mode with the steering-wheel mounted paddles or in automatic mode. For reverse gear, the rotational direction of the motors is inverted.

 

[LuckyLuke]

But not a lot of people ever talk about the possibilty of using CVT - continuous variable transmission. I know why these have had limited sucess in ICEs, but they have been mass produced and proven reliable (Audi, Lexus, Honda). Now with the electric drivetrain and the way it achieves 100% torque from early on I don't see why a performance electric motor with a performance CVT isn't a match made in heaven??? Or maybe I'm missing something?

I recall that using a CVT on a high torque engine (which a MS obviously has) was difficult. That's probably the reason why you don't see many CVT's in high powered cars nowadays.

 

[widodh]

Don't forget that adding some kind of transmission always means additional weight and friction, thus loss of efficiency.

 

[ElSupreme]

My feeling has always been that as long as its an open highway, with no crossings and no other cars within 200 yards, its not really that big a deal. Especially if none of those other cars is a cop.

Quite a bit more dangerous for the participants than racing at a drag strip, and you certainly deserve any punishment you get if you get caught. But I've taken the occasional car out to empty highways in the Mojave just to see what they can do. Street racing in an urban environment is a terrible idea though, as it risks property damage and the lives of the general public. Anyone doing that certainly deserves jail time.

I agree with you. I wasn't complaining. I have done a max speed run in my GTI on a desolate interstate.

And by blocking the bridge they were 100% sure no problems with peds or cars.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

I was thinking around the same lines, but I am sure Tesla with its years of experience would have thought about that as well. There must have been a reason they didn't go that way.

And about my comments earlier on about the Model S performance and range at Autobahn speeds: it doesn't matter what I personally think about it. It is far more important for Tesla's success what the general public, that is supposed to buy the car here, thinks. Just saying "if you want to drive the car on the Autobahn like you did your ICE, then the Model S is probably not for you" doesn't really help to boost sales. I mean, when you are offered to buy a car for around 100k Euro that is supposed to be "as good as an ICE, if not better" then you set quite high expectations to begin with. That might not be a problem in Norway, where the car is heaviliy subsidized and speed limits are very rigorous around the country, or in Benelux, where travelling distances are quite short. But in countries like UK, France, Germany, Spain etc. where cars of such a caliber are used for long distance travel on a routine basis, limited range at said speeds is a distinct sales disadvantage. Especially as the S is so much more expensive here than in the US, Norway or the Netherlands.

Autobahn-speeds are not the measure of things. And Germany is certainly not the country that will determine the success of the Model S. In most countries the speed limit is between 110 and 130 km/h. That the Model S cannot sustain Autobahn-speeds of 160-200 km/h for a longer time/distance is completely irrelevant for almost every country in the world. And even for Germany it will become more and more irrelevant, as more and more German highways are getting speed limits for environmental and safety reasons. I have been driving in Germany for two decades now, so I know what I'm talking about. And even on the parts where there are no speed limits yet, as the roads get busier there is less and less room to maintain high speeds. Besides, driving at those speeds is idiotic anyway, I've seen a lot of accidents (and the terrible consequences) that were the result of the lack of reaction time at such speeds. The days of unlimited speeds are counted, also in Germany.

 

[AustinPowers]

Autobahn-speeds are not the measure of things. And Germany is certainly not the country that will determine the success of the Model S. In most countries the speed limit is between 110 and 130 km/h. That the Model S cannot sustain Autobahn-speeds of 160-200 km/h for a longer time/distance is completely irrelevant for almost every country in the world. And even for Germany it will become more and more irrelevant, as more and more German highways are getting speed limits for environmental and safety reasons. I have been driving in Germany for two decades now, so I know what I'm talking about. And even on the parts where there are no speed limits yet, as the roads get busier there is less and less room to maintain high speeds. Besides, driving at those speeds is idiotic anyway, I've seen a lot of accidents (and the terrible consequences) that were the result of the lack of reaction time at such speeds. The days of unlimited speeds are counted, also in Germany.

I am hardly one to vote for speeding on the Autobahn (actually my BMW can reach 250 km/h but I have never tested that. I have never felt comfortable at speeds above 200 km/h), but even at normal speeds like say 130 km/h, the range of Model S will hardly be anywhere near the 265 miles Tesla can claim under certain conditions. And perhaps when you are on new Autobahns in Eastern Germany (where we often drive when visiting my family in law) and there is little traffic and you want to get along for a bit, you can drive at 100 miles per hour easily for quite some time. Surely not a ridiculous speed (and at that speed you will be overtaken frequently, more often than not by people with yellow licence plates by the way :wink, but one where Model S (as well as any EV that I know of) will lose range at a dramatic rate. That was more to the point I wanted to make.

 

[NotTarts]

I am hardly one to vote for speeding on the Autobahn (actually my BMW can reach 250 km/h but I have never tested that. I have never felt comfortable at speeds above 200 km/h), but even at normal speeds like say 130 km/h, the range of Model S will hardly be anywhere near the 265 miles Tesla can claim under certain conditions. And perhaps when you are on new Autobahns in Eastern Germany (where we often drive when visiting my family in law) and there is little traffic and you want to get along for a bit, you can drive at 100 miles per hour easily for quite some time. Surely not a ridiculous speed (and at that speed you will be overtaken frequently, more often than not by people with yellow licence plates by the way :wink, but one where Model S (as well as any EV that I know of) will lose range at a dramatic rate. That was more to the point I wanted to make.

I'm fairly certain that any car, gasoline or electric, will lose range at a dramatic rate at those speeds. This is where refuelling time comes in.

 

[ggr]

... you can drive at 100 miles per hour easily for quite some time. Surely not a ridiculous speed (and at that speed you will be overtaken frequently, more often than not by people with yellow licence plates by the way :wink

Sorry, I know we 'Merkan's do this all the time, but could you clarify what you mean by the yellow licence plates? (In Australia, most of the license plates are yellow.)

 

[brianman]

Sorry, I know we 'Merkan's do this all the time, but could you clarify what you mean by the yellow licence plates? (In Australia, most of the license plates are yellow.)

Here's my guess:

It's funny, I live right on the Dutch border, and the Dutch are horrible drivers. A joke here in Germany is "if a driver fails his driving test twice they issue them yellow license plates (Dutch plates are yellow, German are white).

BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92) - View Single Post - Short Rant

 

[widodh]

I am hardly one to vote for speeding on the Autobahn (actually my BMW can reach 250 km/h but I have never tested that. I have never felt comfortable at speeds above 200 km/h), but even at normal speeds like say 130 km/h, the range of Model S will hardly be anywhere near the 265 miles Tesla can claim under certain conditions. And perhaps when you are on new Autobahns in Eastern Germany (where we often drive when visiting my family in law) and there is little traffic and you want to get along for a bit, you can drive at 100 miles per hour easily for quite some time. Surely not a ridiculous speed (and at that speed you will be overtaken frequently, more often than not by people with yellow licence plates by the way :wink, but one where Model S (as well as any EV that I know of) will lose range at a dramatic rate. That was more to the point I wanted to make.

Still, driving 160km/h (100miles) vs 120km/h has a BIG impact on the range of your ICE as well.

The problem is just that an ICE becomes slightly more efficient the more you stress it. So at 120km/h it might be running at 25% efficiency and that climbs to 30% at 160km/h.

Model S starts at 90% and the faster you drive it doesn't get anymore efficient.

In essence the ICE is always cheating by throwing a lot of energy away.

Sorry, I know we 'Merkan's do this all the time, but could you clarify what you mean by the yellow licence plates? (In Australia, most of the license plates are yellow.)

Germany has white license plates and the Netherlands has yellow license plates.

Our plates say: "NL", which the germans always joke: Nür Links (Always left, aka, they are always in your way)

 

[artsci]

Careful with that never word, Sir :wink:. I remember MB 300D introduction with a blazing 88hp, when everybody said that Diesel engines would go nowhere in a car, never. And today you name a 3L diesel engine as top of the pop!

Yes, "never" is a dangerous word. When I got my first mortgage in the 80s at 12 percent, the experts were saying we'd never see single digit mortgage interest rates again. Right:tongue:

 

[AustinPowers]

Here's my guess: ...

Correct guess.
Dutch drivers on the whole are certainly not worse than German drivers, it's just that on the Autobahn we get two very annoying specimens:

1) The speeding kind, that tries to push you out of the way no matter what your own speed (or the current speed limit) might be.
2) The infamous Dutch caravan convoy: at least three or four cars with caravans in tow in the left lane at about 50 miles per hour, hence the NL joke mentioned above.

I guess it comes down to a friendly rivalry between us know-it-all-(better) Germans and our yellow-licence-plated neighbours :wink:

And about the efficiency of an ICE: while it might be terribly inefficient compared to an EV, at least mine gets me around 850 km per filling at mixed autobahn speeds between 65 and 110 miles per hour.

Perhaps Volker and other European first movers will be able to elaborate on the Model S range at Autobahn speeds when they get their cars in the near future.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Correct guess.
Dutch drivers on the whole are certainly not worse than German drivers, it's just that on the Autobahn we get two very annoying specimens:

1) The speeding kind, that tries to push you out of the way no matter what your own speed (or the current speed limit) might be.
2) The infamous Dutch caravan convoy: at least three or four cars with caravans in tow in the left lane at about 50 miles per hour, hence the NL joke mentioned above.

I guess it comes down to a friendly rivalry between us know-it-all-(better) Germans and our yellow-licence-plated neighbours :wink:

And about the efficiency of an ICE: while it might be terribly inefficient compared to an EV, at least mine gets me around 850 km per filling at mixed autobahn speeds between 65 and 110 miles per hour.

Perhaps Volker and other European first movers will be able to elaborate on the Model S range at Autobahn speeds when they get their cars in the near future.

At ~170kph the range of the Model S is likely to be very poor. Off hand, I'd guess ~215km or less. It has nothing to do with batteries, or EVness. It's simply that the Model S does not have a transmission which allows it to shift to a more efficient gear. A 5 speed ICE vehicle would get terrible mileage if it tried to drive at 170kph in 3rd gear.

 

[ElSupreme]

At ~170kph the range of the Model S is likely to be very poor. Off hand, I'd guess ~215km or less. It has nothing to do with batteries, or EVness. It's simply that the Model S does not have a transmission which allows it to shift to a more efficient gear. A 5 speed ICE vehicle would get terrible mileage if it tried to drive at 170kph in 3rd gear.

While it is true that ICEs have varying efficiency across their speed (rpm) range, this isn't really true for AC induction motors. They are pretty much equally efficient across their whole range (with maybe their last 5% of speed dropping a percentage point or two). The maximum power drops off at high speeds, but efficiency stays above 90%. Adding a transmission would introduce more losses than you would see gains. The only thing a transmission would afford a EV is greater range of speeds.