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It's amazing to me that even after these cells are considered EOL for automotive use (80% @ 800 cycles, or 200,000 miles with 100% depth of discharge), they're still good for another 2000 cycles at 70-80% capacity. Who knows what the power delivery is like by that point but the potential uses...

Was this you on Autoblog?

I think comparisons with the MS are a bit silly, considering one of a 2-seater sports car and the other is a large 5-seater sedan. 0-60 in 4.3s is pretty disappointing for a car of this class though and I refuse to call it a 'supercar' like some autojournalists want me to. The i8's electric...

US Nissan Leaf - $28,800 (-30%) Chevrolet Volt - $39,995 (-5%) BMW i3 - $42,300 UK Nissan Leaf - £25,990 (-15%) BMW i3 - £30,680 Chevrolet Volt (Vauxhall Ampera?) - £35,255 (+15%) Germany Nissan Leaf - €30,990 (-12.5%) BMW i3 - €34,950 Opel Ampera - €42,900 (+22.5%) Some of...

That's under the NEDC (New European Driving Cycle). The 60kWh Model S uses 150Wh/km in the same conditions and the 85kWh 165Wh/km.

I'm guessing the cost of the initial supply of 50 batteries isn't part of the $500k build cost?

There's no way you'll get the exact same pack when you return. Maybe one with similar characteristics, but the cost is astronomical to store unusable packs at the station while the rented packs are out in the wild. If 20 people headed off for the weekend, for example, you'd need at least 20...

I'm seeing a bunch of articles over the internet stating the price of the Model S to be $90,000. Does anyone know where this comes from?

Franz seems to like smooth bodywork with very few character lines. The sides of the S and X look a bit like his Kabura concept from Mazda:

Heard from where? I know Nissan says it does, but they're using manganese spinel batteries with air cooling, as opposed to Tesla with NCA and liquid cooling. The Leaf would also be charging at 2C, while the 85kWh Model S charges at ~1.4C.

You're getting ripped off. Even here in Australia it's 1 EUR/Watt (1.4 AUD/Watt) for PV solar, including installation.

It took me a few minutes to get it, but look at this picture here: You can see 6 plugs, but the chargers are actually the 3 white cabinets in the background. So at the moment there a 2 plugs per charger, but they're looking to increase that to 4 in the future. Doesn't this mean that if the...

This assumes full utilisation of the network, and with 2000 stalls (each serving 2 cars per hour), that's ~100,000 cars per day. With an install base of only 500,000 I think those numbers are a bit unlikely.

Elon said that each station without solar costs about $150k. Does anyone know how many stalls that includes?

So Audi has cancelled the R8 e-tron - again. Apparently the reasoning behind it is "that Audi is not willing to accept the limited range and long charging times that are a result of current battery technology." http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/all-electric-audi-r8-e-tron-wont-go-sale...

Some more things to add: - Long range EVs like the Model S will almost always charge at night with unutilized off-peak power, where they don't contribute to any increase in overall CO2 production. - Tesla is able to recover some 70% of the CO2 released during the production the batteries...

TSLA shows off Tesla S P85 to N.C. lawmakers - Charlotte Business Journal

Definitely not. "This resulted in excellent energy density of 20 Wh/kg, comparable to batteries" For comparison the NCR18650A cells Tesla uses has a density of 240 Wh/kg, and Panasonic's upgraded NCR18650B has a density of 260 Wh/kg. So "comparable to batteries" is just a bit of a stretch.

The Model S is a good example of how EVs can be better than ICE cars because they're EVs, and you've done a nice job of describing that :)

Reminds me of this article from 2009 from - you guessed it - Dan Neil, who predicted that the likes of Audi would step in and quickly surpass Tesla: Audi e-tron: Taking the e-train - Los Angeles Times It's pretty funny reading it today. 3 years later and all we have are a bunch of canned...

Is this the sound here? Tesla Model S Performance Amazing Test Drive! Chicago IL. 7-26-12 - YouTube Definitely sounds like it's from the inverter. There's no other way it would have such a constant frequency and volume.

Here are the other graphs from Panasonic: Not sure what to read from that. The charge graph says 4.05V is ~80% capacity, but the discharge graph is measured from 4.2V so it might not be accurate.

Sorry to bump this thread, but remember the massive discrepancies between the two different battery cycle graphs? The 3000 cycle number is due to shallow cycling, not an "EV optimised" chemistry.

Both a battery swap and supercharger station capable of servicing a similar amount of cars require the same amount of power. The energy needed to replenish the depleted batteries loaded into the station doesn't come from nowhere. That's my beef with swapping stations. Not only do they require...

Far superior? I can't think of any advantage a battery swapping system would have over supercharging apart from turnover rate. And honestly, I don't think that alone is worth the large increases in capital and complexity, not when there's a possibility that charging could be reduced to 15...

I like Cattledog's idea, but I'm firmly against battery swapping stations. They have a high initial cost, are mechanically very complex, potentially require constant staffing and maintenance, and on top of that use a fairly significant amount of land area and don't necessarily solve congestion...

I'm not entirely convinced on battery swapping. For the price of a single battery swapping station ($500,000 according to Better Place), you'd be able to install 10 supercharging stalls. Is battery swapping 10x faster than fast charging, and if so, will it still be in the future? It eliminates...

Is this article where they got the 180-mile range from? 67 kWh = "full charge"? I was surprised no one mentioned it in the comments.

I've found out today that SpaceX's Grasshopper VTVL testing vehicle flew to 250m on Thursday, up from 80m in the last test. No press release yet but there should be one soon. Here's a video of the 80m jump for reference: Grasshopper 24-Story Hover Slam 3/7/13 | Single Angle - YouTube

The Model S already beats the Roadster in a drag race. There's no way the Roadster would've been a match for the tuned E63.

Better a MSP vs a Roadster Sport IMO :)

I'm fairly certain that any car, gasoline or electric, will lose range at a dramatic rate at those speeds. This is where refuelling time comes in.

That Viper drops back even further each time it changes gears.

Not sure if it was posted, but Cadillac estimated a 0-60 time of 8 seconds for the ELR. Personally I hope it does well, as it's a nice poster car for EVs and EREVs. Not sure if I really see it as directly competing against the Model S due to the huge differences in seating/door arrangements...

Another round of layoffs from Coda. Can't say it wasn't expected. More layoffs at Coda Automotive

The available power from the batteries pretty severely limits the performance. 0-60 in 6.3s and that's with the generator assisting. In pure EV mode I think it's somewhere around the 8 second mark. Torque makes a huge difference in the low end, where the Karma should do pretty well.

No, not in Norway, but there is a 10% import tax in Holland where the Model S is distributed from.

Blame your government for exorbitant import taxes. God forbid Tesla tries to sell the Model S in Europe sustainably. Imported products in Europe generally always cost more than their US counterparts. Why would you expect this to be any different? Tesla has to follow the rules just like...

I'm curious, would you have been fine if the upgrade price was higher and the 21" wheels were included?

I'm not saying it's not a worse deal, but compared to the standard model the upgrade cost isn't any more than the US. In Norway, the Performance model is 117% the price of the Standard model, and it's 121% in the US. So the Norway pricing is actually slightly cheaper. That 4% difference happens...

Taxes are a percentage, not a fixed price. Proportionately the difference between the prices of the 85kWh Standard and Performance is exactly the same in both countries. It's a shame about the 21" wheels though.

I think your numbers are off by about a month. According to this report Tesla was producing 200 cars per week in early November (you've said 120 in early November and 200 in early December). Tesla also estimated an early December number of 400 cars per week, unless something has changed that.

Was there any indication that the EPA test used 21" wheels? I'd have guessed that they'd use 19" considering that's the standard outfit and the wheel size Tesla uses to promote their range. edit: Were these your conditions, rlawson? - 21" wheels - 50F outside - 55mph - Heat on Using Tesla's...

Thanks, I just assumed that they used NMC as I couldn't find anything about the batteries apart from 'Nickel-based'. Interestingly NCA is the same chemistry used by the Smart Fortwo EV battery which is apparently rated at 400,000km.

As others have mentioned, the Roadster uses LCO (Lithium Cobalt) batteries whilst the Model S uses NMC (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt). NMC batteries have improved life span, power output, safety, and temperature performance compared to what's used in the Roadster. You can read about it here...

Just a correction -- there is no "lithium plating" inside the battery. Lithium is dissolved inside a solution to form the electrolyte, so there is no pure lithium inside the battery. The problem in that article refers to lithium ions moving past the anode, which is made from graphite (carbon). I...

Eh, they can't really test some batteries and paint all batteries with the same brush. The Volt and Leaf use Manganese spinel, the Model S uses Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC), the i-MiEV uses Lithium-Titanate, the Smart Fortwo EV uses Nickel Cobalt Aluminium (NCA), while the Karma and Spark EV...

Not sure if this is the right forum? Vehicle Emissions and Cost Calculator This is a little tool I whipped up a while ago when the Model S EPA numbers were first released to compare vehicles in regards to how much they'd cost you to drive 100km, the amount of CO2 released in that same period...

markwj, if you're charging late at night you're likely to be utilizing unused baseload power and aren't making an impact at all. I know at least that my power company's rates drop dramatically between 10pm to 7am.