Ludicrous Upgrade Scheduling?

[3mp_kwh]

Here's my attempt to organize the data in this thread to show approximate graphing of low/high temp P85D data from Sorka and YoMa plus reference points from P85DL and P90DL. Although the data is sparse, curve fitting shows believable plots. Of course more data would give a more accurate picture. It would especially be interesting to see P90DL data since the battery technology is different.

View attachment 102221

Yes, temperature and SOC are separate functions, in relation to KW output. Sorka has shown cold, and warm, data, for a given SOC. It suggested cold losses. From post#256:

34% = 344 (the P85DL must have had a really cold battery to only put out 346 at 45%!)
33% = 353 (Warmer than at 34%)
77% = 389 (warm)
84% = 390 (cold)

In the same data, he showed a 396kw @81%SOC. Having 390 @84%(cold) means more than 10kw could be lost strictly on temperature, possibly a lot more if "cold"(?) in California isn't the routine 30-55 degree mornings seen in the north. Sorka, any chance your "cold" is ~>60F. If so, it would be good to know how much lower a 40-50F, 90% SOC, KW peak is? Compounding temperature and SOC losses may explain why Tesla began including the Max Power feature.

One thing owners can do is resort to timed charging, where a battery is warmer immediately after it finishes (beginning of a commute, etc). Otherwise, I hope the improvements aren't much more elusive for some of us.

 

[kennybobby]

I've only done one 0-60 run ... achieved 417Kw at 37mph with a 60% SoC....

That's some great data for comparison of the L upgrade.

From the 417 kW and 37mph we can figure peak hp of 558 and torque of 672 ft-lbs at 4362 rpm. Using rated motor voltage of 320V this indicates a current of 1303 Amps.

By comparison to the specs of a P85D, with 463hp (345kW) battery-limited power the torque of 687 ft-lbs occurs at about 30 mph at 3538 rpm. Using rated motor voltage of 320V indicates a maximum current of 1079 Amps.

So there is clearly more current draw as expected with the upgrade--i'm putting it at an upgrade from 1100 A up to 1300 A with the bigger fuse.

 

[yo mama]

That's some great data for comparison of the L upgrade.

From the 417 kW and 37mph we can figure peak hp of 558 and torque of 672 ft-lbs at 4362 rpm. Using rated motor voltage of 320V this indicates a current of 1303 Amps.

By comparison to the specs of a P85D, with 463hp (345kW) battery-limited power the torque of 687 ft-lbs occurs at about 30 mph at 3538 rpm. Using rated motor voltage of 320V indicates a maximum current of 1079 Amps.

So there is clearly more current draw as expected with the upgrade--i'm putting it at an upgrade from 1100 A up to 1300 A with the bigger fuse.

I'll try a 0-60 launch with a higher charge today and see what's up. Thanks for doing the math. That made my head hurt, but your figures indicate a rather measurable improvement.

 

[sorka]

I've only done one 0-60 run with power tools. I only achieved 417Kw at 37mph with a 60% SoC. I'd been driving for about 20 minutes prior so the battery wasn't "cold" and I *DID* have "max power" enabled. Maybe that's good given Old Man Mike's graph?

You pulled 417KW at 60% but only 425KW at 90%? If so, this would be evidence that the higher capacity of the fuse is only phased in as the voltage drops to keep total power from dropping as the SOC drops.

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Yes, temperature and SOC are separate functions, in relation to KW output. Sorka has shown cold, and warm, data, for a given SOC. It suggested cold losses. From post#256:


In the same data, he showed a 396kw @81%SOC. Having 390 @84%(cold) means more than 10kw could be lost strictly on temperature, possibly a lot more if "cold"(?) in California isn't the routine 30-55 degree mornings seen in the north. Sorka, any chance your "cold" is ~>60F. If so, it would be good to know how much lower a 40-50F, 90% SOC, KW peak is? Compounding temperature and SOC losses may explain why Tesla began including the Max Power feature.

One thing owners can do is resort to timed charging, where a battery is warmer immediately after it finishes (beginning of a commute, etc). Otherwise, I hope the improvements aren't much more elusive for some of us.

Cold as in doing the first run in the morning within a 2 or 3 minutes of starting out vs having done 4 to 5 full throttle runs which will certainly warm up the battery. When I did it yesterday, I used max battery while on the charger and immediately got 415KW at 91% as soon as I hit it.

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That's some great data for comparison of the L upgrade.

From the 417 kW and 37mph we can figure peak hp of 558 and torque of 672 ft-lbs at 4362 rpm. Using rated motor voltage of 320V this indicates a current of 1303 Amps.

By comparison to the specs of a P85D, with 463hp (345kW) battery-limited power the torque of 687 ft-lbs occurs at about 30 mph at 3538 rpm. Using rated motor voltage of 320V indicates a maximum current of 1079 Amps.

So there is clearly more current draw as expected with the upgrade--i'm putting it at an upgrade from 1100 A up to 1300 A with the bigger fuse.

Certainly at lower states of charge, but I'd really like to see 10% more power at full charge (455KW) or we're going to need another asterisk thread

That said, even if the extra current is only allowed in at lower SOCs, I do most of my driving at an average SOC of 50% so the upgrade would still have a lot of value. Really hoping we see more than 425KW with a really warm battery or that there's a software update coming.

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.....and if we're going to see a 2.9 seconds 0-60 run at 90%, it will require more than 425KW.

 

[yo mama]

@ sorka: yep, that's what Power Tools is telling me. Here is some of the key data points, though if you PM me an email address I'm happy to send you the run logs
- 414kw @ 55mph and 59% SoC
- 417kw @ 37mph and 60% SoC (the only 0-60 run)
- 418kw @ 79mph and 66% SoC
- 418kw @ 75mph and 85% SoC
- 425kw @ 40mph and 89% SoC

 

[wk057]

Let's not mix up Tesla's newly advertised battery-limited motor shaft power with power at the battery (what the API reports).

425 kW vs 415 kW is not all that significant, although it is nice that it appears to be available at lower SoC than the non-L equivalent due to the amperage bump. I know for a fact that the 85 kWh cells at room temp will put out their max power at 100% SoC, so, I'd love to see those numbers. 425 kW is basically exactly what my cell testing says the power should be at 90% SoC at 1500A. sorka's 91%/415kW/1300A number doesn't match my data, though, so I'm not sure all of the variables here.

At 100% SoC, with a room temperature battery, at 1500A, we should be seeing about 445kW from the 85 kWh pack.

 

[sorka]

Let's not mix up Tesla's newly advertised battery-limited motor shaft power with power at the battery (what the API reports).

425 kW vs 415 kW is not all that significant, although it is nice that it appears to be available at lower SoC than the non-L equivalent due to the amperage bump. I know for a fact that the 85 kWh cells at room temp will put out their max power at 100% SoC, so, I'd love to see those numbers. 425 kW is basically exactly what my cell testing says the power should be at 90% SoC at 1500A. sorka's 91%/415kW/1300A number doesn't match my data, though, so I'm not sure all of the variables here.

At 100% SoC, with a room temperature battery, at 1500A, we should be seeing about 445kW from the 85 kWh pack.

What power should we see at 91% with the 1300 amp fuse at room temperature? 414KW has been repeated many times by me and others at 90% at least according to the streaming API.

Also, do you think the battery chemistry in the 90KWH pack should warrant less voltage drop at equivalent amperages? Silicon in the anode increases capacity but usually increases internal resistance which is why I'm surprised that the output isn't at least matching the 90 pack.

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@ sorka: yep, that's what Power Tools is telling me. Here is some of the key data points, though if you PM me an email address I'm happy to send you the run logs
- 414kw @ 55mph and 59% SoC
- 417kw @ 37mph and 60% SoC (the only 0-60 run)
- 418kw @ 79mph and 66% SoC
- 418kw @ 75mph and 85% SoC
- 425kw @ 40mph and 89% SoC

So that pretty much confirms it for me.

So the upgrade page should say "up to 10% more power" because you can only the extra peak power at lower SOCs vs a P85D at lower SOCs without the upgrade. Not sure how they're going to get a P85DL to produce 2.9 seconds 0-60s unless they're widening the power band and allowing more through at slower speeds.

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Also, at 60%, your 417 vs my 367 is a 50 KW (67 hp at the battery) difference.

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Just for kicks, here's a REST power graph along with the vbox horsepower at the wheels graph for the same run:

This is about a 10% loss from the battery to the wheels. If you overlay the curve, it starts to diverge on the right but it's exactly the amount of divergence you would get if you plugged the speed values into a wind drag calculator which also nearly matches the coast down in neutral with my vbox but haven't yet had the time to figure out how to overlay the coast down with the wheel power estimate.

Other than that, the KW output matches exactly that at the wheels. This is why I think Tesla's 463 number is being stated only for the lowest end of the daily driving SOC. Pete90's P90DL produced around 445 hp at the wheels using a vbox.

With 425KW, we should see around 512 at the wheels which we'll know for sure next week when you get my vbox.

 

[JQ11]

I've only done one 0-60 run with power tools. I only achieved 417Kw at 37mph with a 60% SoC. I'd been driving for about 20 minutes prior so the battery wasn't "cold" and I *DID* have "max power" enabled. Maybe that's good given Old Man Mike's graph?

What's was your time for the 0-60?

 

[yo mama]

What's was your time for the 0-60?

Power Tools says 0-61 in 3.5 seconds, which made me sad

 

[sorka]

Power Tools says 0-61 in 3.5 seconds, which made me sad

Pay no attention to Powertools for that. First, it doesn't use the 1 ft rollout and it can be off by .25 seconds on both ends since the sampling rate is only 4 hz and they're not using curve fitting or extrapolation so it can be WAY off.

 

[wk057]

What power should we see at 91% with the 1300 amp fuse at room temperature? 414KW has been repeated many times by me and others at 90% at least according to the streaming API.

Also, do you think the battery chemistry in the 90KWH pack should warrant less voltage drop at equivalent amperages? Silicon in the anode increases capacity but usually increases internal resistance which is why I'm surprised that the output isn't at least matching the 90 pack.

My data says, with a room temp pack, we should see about 395kW at 90% SoC max at 1500A on the 85 pack. Not too far off, I suppose, but I'm still likely missing some variable.

As for the 90 pack, I'm guessing the internal resistance is similar, but as an average may be a hair better under load due to the added capacity. Would love to get some of those cells to mess with.

 

[lolachampcar]

I seem to remember seeing some initial data that suggests the 90 compares to the 85 almost as a straight line on capacity (same percentage change in output power as capacity which says Tesla is pulling power at a fixed C rate). Any change in internal resistance is likely getting lost in the resolution of the data.

 

[yo mama]

just hit 446kw


eta 91% soc at 81mph

 

[lolachampcar]

 

[jpet]

just hit 446kw


eta 91% soc at 81mph

GO mama!

 

[Evee]

just hit 446kw


eta 91% soc at 81mph

YES!

 

[sorka]

just hit 446kw


eta 91% soc at 81mph

Feeling much better now. Not far off the P90DL.

Can you send me over that Powertools file? You can email it directly from the app. I want to look at the power curve (peak doesn't mean everything even on a drivetrain that has mostly flat power delivery) and see if it's wider at the lower speeds or even flatter(i.e. the 414 usually comes as a little peak and then tapers off 10KW or so below that).

Being 10KW under the P90DL is probably enough to explain the 2.8 vs 2.9 spec. Hopefully you'll see 2.9 with the vbox.

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I'm scheduled in Fremont for December 21st. I placed my deposit within 2 hours of the upgrade site going up and the 5 people ahead of me all placed their orders within a few hours of the site going up. I had been told by Tanya that I was first when they started the waiting list but she said in the end they had to schedule them in order of deposits taken.

Given that at least 6 people placed their orders within a few hours, how many do you think ordered in the days and weeks following especially given they didn't even announce via email for 4 days after the site went up.

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My data says, with a room temp pack, we should see about 395kW at 90% SoC max at 1500A on the 85 pack. Not too far off, I suppose, but I'm still likely missing some variable.

As for the 90 pack, I'm guessing the internal resistance is similar, but as an average may be a hair better under load due to the added capacity. Would love to get some of those cells to mess with.

At 1500 or 1300? Would about 1300 amps at 90%?

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So at 90% it's roughly 7.7% more power but at 60% it's more like 12% more power than a stock P85D. The average increase is likely in the 10% range which might be the source of their 10% increase claim.

 

[lolachampcar]

Just out of curiosity, what happens to power delivered from the battery after it hits the above referenced max number? Does it stay there or does it decline with speed (against back emf)?

 

[yo mama]

Still driving. Previous run was on the freeway. Punched it from 65 to 81

 

[Evee]

Still driving. Previous run was on the freeway. Punched it from 65 to 81

I wonder how soon until we have some "time to 155mph" tests