Loosing faith in TMC - Closed thread.

[NigelM]

What if it wouldn't matter if someone decides to remove their old posts. They are a rare exception anyway. What if the moderators would just decide to let such cases be. Would the damage, really, in actual fact be that significant?

Just imagine that I accuse you of having green hair and you respond "Well, I have brown hair not green"; now I go back and delete my post. Your standalone comment looks quirky at best. Let me do similar things like this to you a few times in different places and there's a good chance you don't see it or even realize it's happening. Other folks are going to start thinking you're a distinctly odd person and give much less credibility to anything you say or maybe will even start ignoring you. As I posted somewhere else, ask the question "Should all members be able to indefinitely edit or delete messages you have responded to?" and I strongly suspect that most people would answer in the negative.

.....and another way to look at it would be just let it go, and not limit things, because mostly people act responsibly. This goes for all other moderation situations as well, like thread deletions and moves to snippiness and whatnot.

Speaking from past experience, when mods got to a bunfight late for whatever reason, all hell had generally broken loose. The general policy of moving things to snippiness as early as possible avoids things escalating. BTW, threads are very rarely deleted, other than spam it's usually obvious deliberate trolling - I think I could count a couple of instances where it happened over my ~3 years as a mod.

 

[brianman]

I just want a 2nd pony!

The 2nd charger is now available only at the online store.

- - - Updated - - -

Just imagine that I accuse you of having green hair and you respond "Well, I have brown hair not green"; now I go back and delete my post. Your standalone comment looks quirky at best....

Sorry, but I have to nitpick this example.

The reply should have been (something like)

... you have green hair.

Well, I have brown hair not green.

In such a case, it doesn't matter if the original comment (by Nigel in this case) was edited after the fact.

Moral: If you quote to provide context regarding your reply, yet another benefit is that you aren't made to look "distinctly odd" by editing ninjas.

 

[NigelM]

Sorry, but I have to nitpick this example.

Nitpicking your nitpicking: you didn't have to and if you're really sorry you wouldn't have nitpicked at all.

 

[brianman]

Nitpicking your nitpicking: you didn't have to and if you're really sorry you wouldn't have nitpicked at all.

Well played. That said....

You know me well enough to know that I had to. OCD perhaps.

And that I'm kind of sorry.

 

[dirkhh]

Nitpicking your nitpicking: you didn't have to and if you're really sorry you wouldn't have nitpicked at all.

You have met brianman, right? The guy in the long-sleeved red tesla shirt and gloves, working outside in 80+ degrees F heat, sweating like crazy and cursing the whole time.
Yet you assume that he doesn't have to nitpick.

Think about that for a moment....

 

[TEG]

I just want a 2nd pony!

Better make sure the X has a roof rack so you can bring her home!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Just imagine that I accuse you of having green hair and you respond "Well, I have brown hair not green"; now I go back and delete my post. Your standalone comment looks quirky at best. Let me do similar things like this to you a few times in different places and there's a good chance you don't see it or even realize it's happening. Other folks are going to start thinking you're a distinctly odd person and give much less credibility to anything you say or maybe will even start ignoring you. As I posted somewhere else, ask the question "Should all members be able to indefinitely edit or delete messages you have responded to?" and I strongly suspect that most people would answer in the negative.

While technically true, I have a hard time seeing that as a real problem - significant enough to warrant a forum-wide ban on past edits. The edit footer will be there, it could even be made to appear more prominent if needed.

Many rules have a reason to them, often in isolation a good one. The balance to be struck is the harder one. Trying to protect one thing may end up limiting something sacred or important elsewhere. Just something to keep in mind.

As I previously said, I think this forum is fairly good on not deleting content and not using active moderating features excessively. But there is also a fairly strong culture that affects how discussions here play out - moderators included. In this area I still think it would be a good idea to really think if things aren't a little over-protective, be it about the conversation, Tesla or perhaps even members. Protecting the diversity of discussion is, too, a very worthy goal and sometimes I think the overbearing culture hinders that a little. Adding limitations to that makes it worse.

I would welcome freeing the reins a little and letting even the hard discussions play themselves out a little more loosely.

 

[bonnie]

Many rules have a reason to them, often in isolation a good one. The balance to be struck is the harder one. Trying to protect one thing may end up limiting something sacred or important elsewhere. Just something to keep in mind.

Do you really believe that the moderators and site administrators don't understand that and work towards balance on a daily basis? (Kind of a rhetorical question, since your advice to 'keep it in mind' seems to indicate you believe they aren't aware.)

I have to tell you that it is REALLY nice not sitting in the moderator role any longer. Three plus years of having people nitpick every single decision & blame mods for their oatmeal not being cooked to perfection was enough (and I swear, if I gave out free cars, someone would complain that they didn't get this or get that) and I'm free of that. Every single one of my former colleagues strives for a fair balance. No one is perfect.

What you don't see is the tsunami of MEMBER reports when someone is attacking another person. You assume that it's just the moderators 'hindering conversation'. Consider that your fellow forum members are ASKING that a moderator intervene and return civility to the discussion. There is no way that this small group of moderators can read every single post made daily - but members do. And by far, the majority of members ask that this forum be one of the rare ones on the net where people are treated with respect. As Robert.Boston has advised on the investor threads 'attack the idea, not the person'.

Posts are sent to Snippiness for personal attacks, not ideas. The requirement to be civil on this forum is not going to change.

 

[WarpedOne]

Every single one of my former colleagues strives for a fair balance. No one is perfect.

Therein lies the rub.
Yes, they do strive for balance and yes no one is perfect. Therefore there exists some imbalance.
Problem arises when that imbalance is put under focus and powers that be redefine reality in a way to suit their own views.
Yes, moderating is hard when one wants to be perfect and cannot admit to himself and even less to others that some choices were just choices and quite possibly bad choices.
Strength arises from admitting the weakness.

Posts are sent to Snippiness for personal attacks, not ideas.

My post was sent to Snippiness because i decleared an idea to be a "loosers excuse". I was blamed of calling another poster a looser. I even got red reputation for it.
That is redefining reality. So be it.

 

[sorka]

If there's an argument going on in a thread where users are insulting each other moderators may temporarily close that thread so we have a chance to sort it out. Lively debate is fine. Insults and name calling is not. Please review our forum rules.

That wasn't happening in this thread:

Wife just said she's never driving the Tesla again......

It was closed without explanation and since the mod that closed it simply said:

"Time to close this thread."

without explanation, it clearly wasn't an accident. Yes, the thread occasionally got off topic with occasional humorous sidetracks but no more than any other active thread, and the thread was as civil as any other normal discussion. Why wasn't this thread allowed to die a natural death????

 

[S'toon]

Therein lies the rub.
Yes, they do strive for balance and yes no one is perfect. Therefore there exists some imbalance.
Problem arises when that imbalance is put under focus and powers that be redefine reality in a way to suit their own views.
Yes, moderating is hard when one wants to be perfect and cannot admit to himself and even less to others that some choices were just choices and quite possibly bad choices.
Strength arises from admitting the weakness.


My post was sent to Snippiness because i decleared an idea to be a "loosers excuse". I was blamed of calling another poster a looser. I even got red reputation for it.
That is redefining reality. So be it.

Full article at:
10 Words You Need to Stop Misspelling - The Oatmeal

 

[bmah]

That wasn't happening in this thread:

Wife just said she's never driving the Tesla again......

It was closed without explanation and since the mod that closed it simply said:

"Time to close this thread."

without explanation, it clearly wasn't an accident. Yes, the thread occasionally got off topic with occasional humorous sidetracks but no more than any other active thread, and the thread was as civil as any other normal discussion. Why wasn't this thread allowed to die a natural death????

Speaking just for myself: Some of the posts in that thread contained language and stereotypes that I thought were inappropriate and offensive to women. There weren't a *lot*, but enough that it felt wrong to me, like we were creating an environment here on TMC that is hostile (or at least not welcoming) towards women. I wrote a short post alluding to this (some people got my point, some people didn't). I flagged my own post for moderator attention, and shortly afterward the thread was locked. Maybe my actions led to the thread being closed, maybe not; but I'm glad it happened.

Peace,

Bruce
(not a moderator)

 

[sorka]

Speaking just for myself: Some of the posts in that thread contained language and stereotypes that I thought were inappropriate and offensive to women. There weren't a *lot*, but enough that it felt wrong to me, like we were creating an environment here on TMC that is hostile (or at least not welcoming) towards women. I wrote a short post alluding to this (some people got my point, some people didn't). I flagged my own post for moderator attention, and shortly afterward the thread was locked. Maybe my actions led to the thread being closed, maybe not; but I'm glad it happened.

Peace,

Bruce
(not a moderator)

Agreed, but as you said, not a lot, so those posts should have been excised from thread as it common practice. Even in drastic cases, Doug has said a thread may be temporarily closed until it cools off. I've never seen a thread like this simply being closed permanently. Further more, the mod that closed it did not give an explanation in the closing comment.

 

[bmah]

Agreed, but as you said, not a lot, so those posts should have been excised from thread as it common practice. Even in drastic cases, Doug has said a thread may be temporarily closed until it cools off. I've never seen a thread like this simply being closed permanently. Further more, the mod that closed it did not give an explanation in the closing comment.

Points well taken.

I suppose it's possible the thread is only temporarily closed, the comment doesn't say one way or the other.

Bruce.

 

[msnow]

Speaking just for myself: Some of the posts in that thread contained language and stereotypes that I thought were inappropriate and offensive to women. There weren't a *lot*, but enough that it felt wrong to me, like we were creating an environment here on TMC that is hostile (or at least not welcoming) towards women. I wrote a short post alluding to this (some people got my point, some people didn't). I flagged my own post for moderator attention, and shortly afterward the thread was locked. Maybe my actions led to the thread being closed, maybe not; but I'm glad it happened.

Peace,

Bruce
(not a moderator)

I had the same impression as Bruce. Seemed to me there were enough inappropriate comments for me to unsubscribe rather than get into a verbal war with those people.