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List of all June 20th announcement hints

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For the record, I hope you are correct :)

Here is my math, transcribed from the reverse of an envelope I had handy. Your deluxe stations cost 300k (bays+canopy)+say 10 battery packs (10*17k) = 470k to start. Now, your proposal is to just add a super bay that does the swapping, since the packs are there anyway. So far so good. Its basically like an automated car wash at a gas station, which also involves a moving mechanism. maybe 50k for the machine. The problem I have is real estate. it isn't just a bay, its a bay plus storage plus room to move around. Plus I think they are being opportunistic siting superchargers. LOTS of businesses will just hand over the parking spots and work with Tesla on the installation. A medium sized building is a whole other problem. Its basically like siting a small business, so owning land separate from existing SC. The cost starts to balloon closer to 1M/station. (these stations could Also be SC stations, which is so easy as to be an afterthought.) So it is something like 3x the cost to build out compared to a pure SC network.

Maybe Elon is smarter than me and has it all figured out though.

I think you left out the part where the net cost is offset by either a subscription fee or per swap fee for use of the swapping feature. Even if Tesla was going to foot the whole bill (which I definitely don't think is the case) AND we assumed that every single Supercharger Station was going to be upgraded to be a Swapping Station (I also don't believe this, I think on the order of 25% will be swap-enabled) that means ~$1M (your estimate) x 200 stations? = $200M.

$200M is hardly billions.

And again, I think owners pay for the added value of being able to recharge so quickly and Tesla breaks even.
 
The simplistic answer, and fastest to market, is dual 120 kW Supercharger connectors. Probably one in each taillight, allowing two adjacent supercharger bays to be easily connected. No problem for owners to deal with existing cables and connectors. Time for partial charge is cut from 20 min with the existing 120 kW supercharger to only 10 min using two of them.

Elon has used the principle of multiple production units used in parallel many times. Dual chargers. Twelve charger Superchargers. Lots of 18650 cells. Nine engine Falcon 9. Three Falcon 9's to make a Falcon Heavy. This principle delivers proven solutions quickly.

GSP
 
Text version:
  • Seating for 5 sized adults plus 2 child seats
  • More storage space than any sedan on the market
  • Unrivaled 17" user information interface
  • Rear wheel drive (all wheel drive optional)
  • 256, 368, or 480 KM range battery
  • 0 to 100 kph in 5.6 sec
  • 45 minute quick charge capability
  • Battery exchange faster than a fill up
  • Base price $49,900 after Federal Tax Rebate

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  • Seating for 5 sized adults plus 2 child seats
Nitpick: I presume they meant "Adult-sized seating for 5, plus 2 child seats".

- - - Updated - - -

  • Rear wheel drive (all wheel drive optional)
This is far more interesting to me than the battery exchange.

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I can say with complete confidence that the June 20th announcement will not involve something off-planet.
 
The simplistic answer, and fastest to market, is dual 120 kW Supercharger connectors. Probably one in each taillight, allowing two adjacent supercharger bays to be easily connected. No problem for owners to deal with existing cables and connectors. Time for partial charge is cut from 20 min with the existing 120 kW supercharger to only 10 min using two of them.

Elon has used the principle of multiple production units used in parallel many times. Dual chargers. Twelve charger Superchargers. Lots of 18650 cells. Nine engine Falcon 9. Three Falcon 9's to make a Falcon Heavy. This principle delivers proven solutions quickly.

GSP

+1

Very simple solution. He also announced they will be doubling the charger connections from 2 per stack to 4. Like you said, it fits the pattern.
 
+1

Very simple solution. He also announced they will be doubling the charger connections from 2 per stack to 4. Like you said, it fits the pattern.

I already took a magnet to the right tail-light to see if it has a locking mechanism as well. It doesn't, at least not on my VIN. (Not to say they can't add one after the fact).

There is still the issue of the battery chemistry, but maybe the cells will hold up.

Also 10 minutes however does not make for a gas station refill speed. But it does make it fast enough to not bother with battery swapping.

However... plugging in two cables is clunky, and although it will be much appreciated, it does not make for a cool demo. Certainly does not warrant an in-person live demonstration by Elon.
 
I already took a magnet to the right tail-light to see if it has a locking mechanism as well. It doesn't, at least not on my VIN. (Not to say they can't add one after the fact).

There is still the issue of the battery chemistry, but maybe the cells will hold up.

Also 10 minutes however does not make for a gas station refill speed. But it does make it fast enough to not bother with battery swapping.

However... plugging in two cables is clunky, and although it will be much appreciated, it does not make for a cool demo. Certainly does not warrant an in-person live demonstration by Elon.

Haha, so here's my reasoning:

Tesla just announced a MASSIVE supercharger rollout. Why in the world would they do that and then add swapping? That's too redundant. Don't say "well some of those dots will be swapping stations". No they won't. Some poor smuck buys a 60 and pays 2k extra because of that grey dot near him will have a fit if they don't build a supercharger there. Tesla is not going to open themselves up to a lawsuit by lying to customers and shareholders about the supercharger locations.

Don't try "they will put the swap stations at service centers and cities". That doesn't make any sense. If I was traveling from LA to Vegas, why would I swap my battery in LA? That doesn't get me to Vegas.

Elon talked about his upcoming road trip with his kids. He could have said "we will soon have a way to travel across the country as quickly as any gas car". Instead he made it a point to say he was going to route his trip with the supercharger network (using the lightning bolts on the screen). If swapping were coming, he would have used ambiguous language. He was clearly talking about supercharging.

Fact: new superchargers come with longer cables. Why? I can't think of a single credible explanation for that except they may need to stretch to somewhere other than the tail light port (btw, I don't believe the second port will be the opposite side tail light. I think both ports will be on the same side. That way you can walk by the cars while they are charging and not have to duck under a cable. Gas cars with 2 tanks have both caps on the same side for that very reason)

Elon just announced that each supercharger box will now have 4 plugs instead of 2. Hmmmm....that's interesting. So if Harris Ranch has 5 boxes, that means they will have 20 parking spots? I don't think that real estate is going to scale like that.

Elon and Javier both used the term "recharge". I don't recharge my phone by swapping batteries. Unless they are intentionally trying to mislead us, that language indicates a charging solution.
 
Haha, so here's my reasoning:

Tesla just announced a MASSIVE supercharger rollout. Why in the world would they do that and then add swapping? That's too redundant. Don't say "well some of those dots will be swapping stations". No they won't. Some poor smuck buys a 60 and pays 2k extra because of that grey dot near him will have a fit if they don't build a supercharger there. Tesla is not going to open themselves up to a lawsuit by lying to customers and shareholders about the supercharger locations.

Don't try "they will put the swap stations at service centers and cities". That doesn't make any sense. If I was traveling from LA to Vegas, why would I swap my battery in LA? That doesn't get me to Vegas.

Elon talked about his upcoming road trip with his kids. He could have said "we will soon have a way to travel across the country as quickly as any gas car". Instead he made it a point to say he was going to route his trip with the supercharger network (using the lightning bolts on the screen). If swapping were coming, he would have used ambiguous language. He was clearly talking about supercharging.

Fact: new superchargers come with longer cables. Why? I can't think of a single credible explanation for that except they may need to stretch to somewhere other than the tail light port (btw, I don't believe the second port will be the opposite side tail light. I think both ports will be on the same side. That way you can walk by the cars while they are charging and not have to duck under a cable. Gas cars with 2 tanks have both caps on the same side for that very reason)

Elon just announced that each supercharger box will now have 4 plugs instead of 2. Hmmmm....that's interesting. So if Harris Ranch has 5 boxes, that means they will have 20 parking spots? I don't think that real estate is going to scale like that.

Elon and Javier both used the term "recharge". I don't recharge my phone by swapping batteries. Unless they are intentionally trying to mislead us, that language indicates a charging solution.

Yip. I'm yet to see a coherent argument about why I want to sometimes charge and sometimes exchange at a co-located battery exchange/supercharger spot. Other than just "well, charge is free, exchange is not". Ok - then so show me a plausible fee structure for such an exchange program that will create balanced usage. And THEN show me how you will convince the media to not run article after article after article that simply takes that amount and multiply it by the number of miles you drive per year to show a "True cost of ownership of a Model S".

If you want to market free charging, you better make sure it's free in every conceivable way or alternatively that message will get spun faster than a Model S can get to 60mph.

I agree with the language - especially Javier's.


One more argument that I like to add to those:

[EDIT: I already had this above in this thread. Sorry - didn't realize it's the same thread]:

Tesla is getting supercharger real estate for rent-free or close to it (Elon's words today at the meeting). The reason for that is that it's essentially just a conversion of existing parking spaces, and it serves to draw high-income customers to the businesses surrounding it. Elon didn't even use the word 'reserved parking' - he just called it 'priority parking'. So it's really a no-loss model for business. If they're out of other parking spaces, additional visitors will just start filling the Tesla spots. (I know we will be annoyed by that, but you can see from the structure owner's perspective that they could reason that way).

Next is - if you're at a SuperCharger, you're by definition on a road trip. So even if you only need to charge for 5 or 10 minutes, you're probably still going to get out anyway and go into those shops. This is even better than the gas station convenience store model, since you're not technically allowed to leave the pump while pumping. (I'm sure there is someone who follows this law somewhere - same person who leaves the tags on his mattress...)

HOWEVER, if you're going to exchange, it has to be a drive-through experience. Charging is a parallel experience that you can split over a bunch of parking spots, and Tesla anyway has to oversize it to get good solar coverage. Battery exchange on the other hands means you have to either drive through or at least stay close to the car during the exchange, since cars will be served one after the other and you can't block the exchange bot.

That means you're in the car anyway, and you're already driving. So you'll most likely just drive off. Sure, after the exchange you could still park and go into the business, but if you're going to stop anyway, why did you do a (paid for) battery exchange in the first place? So now you've spent 5 to 10 minutes to do the exchange and re-park (worse if you were second or third in line), and then only do you go into the business. In that case you might as well have just grabbed a free charge to start off with.

So since the battery exchangers are by definition not going to frequent the business, the parking lot owner isn't going to give up those spots near the parking structure for free. He's going to want rent. Lots of it.

If Gen III is a success and Tesla sells 500k vehicles per year, they'll need about 25'000 SuperChargers locations to support them (just from a solar perspective). No WAY he'll create a model that will require Tesla to pay rent on all of those.

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I think on the order of 25% will be swap-enabled

Then it does not fit with his 'anywhere in the country' part of his tweet. If you have 100% coverage of Superchargers it barely accomplishes that. 25% definitely does not.
 
Remember that it is just a presentation. I think it's going to be battery swapping, and then they might build some swappers along high trafficated roads allowing for cross country driving. Or they might open it up for other companies or gas stations to build stations (unlikely). Doesn't a demonstration give tesla more zev credits? That might be the real purpose of this presentation
 
Remember that it is just a presentation. I think it's going to be battery swapping, and then they might build some swappers along high trafficated roads allowing for cross country driving. Or they might open it up for other companies or gas stations to build stations (unlikely). Doesn't a demonstration give tesla more zev credits? That might be the real purpose of this presentation

I don't think it will help Tesla if they get more ZEV credits. They already have more than they can sell.
 
Remember that it is just a presentation. I think it's going to be battery swapping, and then they might build some swappers along high trafficated roads allowing for cross country driving. Or they might open it up for other companies or gas stations to build stations (unlikely). Doesn't a demonstration give tesla more zev credits? That might be the real purpose of this presentation

I think Tesla demonstrated battery swapping in the past and is already qualifying for the extra ZEV credits associated with "fast refueling". Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall the CARB staff said at the recent hearing about changes to the standards that an existing manufacturer (i.e. Tesla) was already qualifying for fast refueling bonus ZEV.

Though I think the "loophole" fix won't go into effect until 2015 anyway? (not sure about this)
 
I think Tesla demonstrated battery swapping in the past and is already qualifying for the extra ZEV credits associated with "fast refueling". Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall the CARB staff said at the recent hearing about changes to the standards that an existing manufacturer (i.e. Tesla) was already qualifying for fast refueling bonus ZEV.

Though I think the "loophole" fix won't go into effect until 2015 anyway? (not sure about this)

Tesla has NOT qualified for the extra ZEV credits for swapping. If you have a cite to contradict this . . .
 
Remember that it is just a presentation. I think it's going to be battery swapping, and then they might build some swappers along high trafficated roads allowing for cross country driving. Or they might open it up for other companies or gas stations to build stations (unlikely). Doesn't a demonstration give tesla more zev credits? That might be the real purpose of this presentation

+1, I am at like 80% that June 20 will be a battery swap demonstration (the powerpoint slide upthread that was from 2010 and used the same "faster than a gas fill" language is the strongest evidence yet IMO). I don't think it's an announcement that it's rolling out imminently, but just an announcement that "hey, this is doable and has been all along on every MS coming off the line" ("under your nose" too since it's a battery in the floor of the car) and "look, we've got the equipment to do it in under 5 minutes, all in this tight little package we can plop down anywhere in the US that needs it."

Edit: Maybe worth repeating - if this is right, then the demonstration is as much about the process and equipment used to do it, as it is about the swappable battery itself. So much digital ink spilled lately on how impossible it is, how expensive it'd be to build the infrastructure, how manual labor sitting there 24 huors a day makes it inconceivable.... If they come with some robot arm and a little parking spot bay and show it being done completely automated, that's something pretty valuable well beyond the mere fact that the battery can be swapped. The HOW, not the WHETHER...
 
Why is everyone still talking about battery swapping? It might be just me, but from the shareholder meeting I got the impression that Elon was clearly talking about faster recharging and not battery swapping; as far as the June 20th demonstration is concerned.

For some reason the link is not working for me, but if you go to around the 40 minute mark you can see exactly what Elon said about even faster (than 120 KW) charging speeds.

http://www.teslamotors.com/2013shareholdermeeting
 
Tesla has NOT qualified for the extra ZEV credits for swapping. If you have a cite to contradict this . . .

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/Treasury2013ModelYearZEVlisting.pdf

The above link shows that Tesla Model S 85 kwh is a type V (5) vehicle. Type V vehicles must meet fast refueling requirements (per http://docs.nrdc.org/energy/files/ene_10070701a.pdf ), and are worth 7 ZEV credits.

The Air Resources Board of Cali held a recent public meeting on tweaking the ZEV regulation. One of the things they are changing is disqualifying battery swapping as "fast refueling". I asked them if anyone was making cars that were currently getting ZEV credits from battery swapping. They said yes. I can't think of who this could be other than Tesla, though this wasn't specifically confirmed, and I didn't specifically ask.

So these two things make me think Tesla is already getting 7 ZEV credits for the 85 kwh.

This is just from my own research. Not an expert on this, so maybe someone will contradict me.
 
I really do not understand all the speculation here. It is obvious that in a short time battery capacity will increase. People will want access to the highest capacity battery at some times for road trips. For a small fee, Tesla owners will be able to swap battery packs for the latest and greatest battery at a swapping station. Their personal battery will be stored at that swap station until they come back to claim it.
Simple but effective solution to mitigate the fact that in a couple of years the battery pack that was top of the line in 2012 will be low end in 2016.
This is a selling feature for all existing and future customers of Model S, Model X, and Gen 3. Buy a Tesla now and know that in the future your car will never be obsolete because you always have access to the best batteries if you need it.
 
Don't try "they will put the swap stations at service centers and cities". That doesn't make any sense. If I was traveling from LA to Vegas, why would I swap my battery in LA? That doesn't get me to Vegas.

I was once in a Tesla Store and overheard a conversation with a Tesla sales rep and a walk-in customer who was attracted to the car. As he explained charging, the prospective buyer got increasingly frustrated with the complexity; she then asked how long it would take to charge the car on the 110v outside her condo. "Oh, probably the entire weekend", stated the Store rep with a smile. She put up her hand, exclaimed "No thank you!" and walked out annoyed.

Battery Exchange is not for YOU; and likely the 90% demographic of this forum. Exchange is not only for RANGE; it is for those "others"... the untapped EV market of renters, condo owners, etc that do no have charging infrastructure, garages, etc.

Think about if the Tesla Rep could answer instead "just drive a few miles to THE station and within 5 minutes you'll have full charge".
 
I was once in a Tesla Store and overheard a conversation with a Tesla sales rep and a walk-in customer who was attracted to the car. As he explained charging, the prospective buyer got increasingly frustrated with the complexity; she then asked how long it would take to charge the car on the 110v outside her condo. "Oh, probably the entire weekend", stated the Store rep with a smile. She put up her hand, exclaimed "No thank you!" and walked out annoyed.
This is a tricky customer to deal with. On the one hand, they'd like to sell cars so it's tempting to engage her further with more information. On the other hand, it was likely clear at this point to the customer rep that it would likely be a counterproductive effort as she was already frustrated, not trying to absorb or understand the technology shift she was being presented with.

About the best he could probably add is: "... but with ~$500 investment in your condo, you can drop that charging time to < 9 hours." If she was looking for excuses to walk away, she'd ignore it and move on. If she was seriously interested, she'd want to know more and would probably calm down a bit while opening her ears a bit more.
 
I was once in a Tesla Store and overheard a conversation with a Tesla sales rep and a walk-in customer who was attracted to the car. As he explained charging, the prospective buyer got increasingly frustrated with the complexity; she then asked how long it would take to charge the car on the 110v outside her condo. "Oh, probably the entire weekend", stated the Store rep with a smile. She put up her hand, exclaimed "No thank you!" and walked out annoyed.

Battery Exchange is not for YOU; and likely the 90% demographic of this forum. Exchange is not only for RANGE; it is for those "others"... the untapped EV market of renters, condo owners, etc that do no have charging infrastructure, garages, etc.

Yeah, I understand your reasoning, but did you watch Elon's answer to that exact question at the shareholder's meeting last night? He didn't crack a little smile and say "we're thinking of ways to work out that issue". Maybe you think he straight out lied to the lady with his answer, but that's not in character with him. I don't expect a swap solution in the cities based on that response. I will freely admit I was wrong if it happens.
 
Yeah, I understand your reasoning, but did you watch Elon's answer to that exact question at the shareholder's meeting last night? He didn't crack a little smile and say "we're thinking of ways to work out that issue". Maybe you think he straight out lied to the lady with his answer, but that's not in character with him. I don't expect a swap solution in the cities based on that response. I will freely admit I was wrong if it happens.

Your points are valid and if it ends up being a dual charging situation how does that explain the "under your nose" hint/clue?