mrpseudonym
Member
Oh thanks for that I had to look up Hobsons Choice. Never knew there was a name for ‘take it or leave it’!
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I've enagaged lawyers in an attempt to recover FSD cost (Australian owner)
- Thread starter jaykaye
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shahryaran
Member
Yes, they might have triggered a decision to do my own research but not a decision to buy or refuse to buy something.
I think a reasonable person, in the course of doing their own research, should be able to rely on public statements made by the CEO on behalf of their own company. Those statements should be substantially true at the time they are made. I also think that a reasonable person could view many of the statements made by Elon Musk to fail that basic test. In my case, I know that statements made by Tesla on their website and directly to me were not accurate.
It bothers me to hear people say things like "Well, everyone knows that he lies and exaggerates, so you shouldn't have believed him", instead of acknowledging that lies and exaggerations are the problem. "Buyer beware" is a defence against the bad behaviour of sellers, not a defence of their bad behaviour.
Nobody should accept lies, I've seen absolutely nothing from Elon that could be labelled as a 'lie' by any reasonable and unemotional interpretation. Has he been overly optimistic, absolutely (a very common trait in high performing engineers and programmers who I have managed in my time). When he and his companies are attempting things that have never been done before, (and most experts and commentators have repeatedly wrongly said they were impossible), any sane and reasonable person can expect that timeframes are only guesses at best, which in many cases Elon even openly stated.
Elon/Tesla are far from the first company ever to fail to deliver a product in the initial timeframe, even with products that are orders of magnitude lower in difficulty, the largest corporations in the world continually miss deadlines.
They have a MUCH higher strike rate in delivering everything they have said they will deliver, which is amazing enough on it's own before you even consider the massively higher level of difficulty for each of the projects his various companies have attempted and achieved.
As I've said repeatedly, he's far from perfect, but these takes are just plain stupid when even a remotely balanced view is taken.
Elon/Tesla are far from the first company ever to fail to deliver a product in the initial timeframe, even with products that are orders of magnitude lower in difficulty, the largest corporations in the world continually miss deadlines.
They have a MUCH higher strike rate in delivering everything they have said they will deliver, which is amazing enough on it's own before you even consider the massively higher level of difficulty for each of the projects his various companies have attempted and achieved.
As I've said repeatedly, he's far from perfect, but these takes are just plain stupid when even a remotely balanced view is taken.
Power Hungry
Member
I don't agree. He just lives on a different planet to most of us.
Audietron
Active Member
Totally agree....
but he said every year since 2015 that next year FSD and full autonomous will be ready... any engineer, visionary, ethical person, or person who is not liar would avoid the mistake from repeating... least after 2-3 time failing to deliver on promises made.
Knowingly misinterpret the truth or withhold the full truth is equal to or bigger than lie .. it's fraud.... specially when it is about the product which is sold on basis of those promises made every year... it's inflating the product value and selling something which doesn't exist and wouldn't be delivered in promised time...
And you have evidence of such?
Throwing around terms like fraud is very stupid without any evidence, do you know exactly what he was thinking when he spoke?
Yes he's given timeframes a number of times, most of those times he has made it clear that it's a big task and he has used the word 'guess'. Has he ever said he promises that it will be done by x date? has he ever said he guarantees delivery by x date?
Again every company has made predictions and missed them by years, Microsoft for one, many more have never ever delivered on products they said they will (something you can't currently accuse Tesla of), are you going to charge each of those with "fraud" as well or does it only apply when the CEO doesn't align with your beliefs?
I don't recall him saying that. But I do recall a lot of YTubers claiming same.
Power Hungry
Member
The definition of stupidity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different outcomes.
Presumably Elon didn’t write the text of the FSD promises on the Tesla website personally. It’s the job of the people who did write it, along with Tesla’s legal team, to appropriately moderate and define what FSD capabilities are intended to be provided and when, so that Tesla would not ever be confronted with accusations of lying or misleading people.
Their job is not to just shrug their shoulders and meekly accept someone’s “overly optimistic” bias because that’s just the way they are, but to challenge it when it needs to be challenged and provide warnings of what could happen if their advice is ignored. If timeframes were only ever “guesses” then that should have been clearly disclosed, in writing, at the point of sale of the product.
So either those people didn’t do the job they should have done, or they did but Elon didn’t listen. So which was it?
I believe those estimates were given based on what they believed at the time as has been explained a number of times.
Did they get it wrong? Obviously yes.
Is that unique? Absolutely not! If you want to hold every company to the same standards that every mistake must be repeatedly highlighted and they must be forever punished for making an optimistic prediction which they did not achieve, you are going to be VERY busy.
I prefer to look at the complete picture realise that they are attempting and have repeatedly achieved things that have never been done before and that all of the experts and commentators said were impossible and cut them a little slack on timelines in the same way I have with countless other tech companies.
The mere fact that they are attempting something the scope of FSD would cause the average level headed customer to expect that any estimates given are nowhere near a guarantee and make their decisions accordingly.
mrpseudonym
Member
If you bought something on a promise then I think thats on you. In any case why would you buy a future widget at the point of buying your new car and then get hit with the extra tax? It was always available to purchase after the initial sale…
My assertion is in my opinion it was not even a promise....
It is, provided it is made completely clear what the “promise” is. For example, if at checkout for FSD Tesla had a disclaimer along the lines of:
…with a box to tick to indicate a positive affirmation and acceptance by the buyer, then Tesla would be on much more solid ground to avoid any litigation. Possibly still not scott-free under Australian Consumer Law (otherwise businesses could ask people for $1000 and say “we might never give you anything in return - do you accept?” and that would not pass muster), but it would be a strong defence.
Did Tesla include this kind of disclosure at the point of sale? If not, why not?
This is the disclaimer I received when choosing FSD from the Australian site in 2019.
The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of kilometers of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
Audietron
Active Member
If by adding a word guess all responsibilities of lie or fraud goes away.... I would correct myself and say - Ï guess he is a real fraud"... lol
whatever you say or defend with, I guess probably next week he will go ahead and give the same promises... with no backing.
This was shared in this same post before.... sharing again as usually Tesla investors or super fans forget or ignore facts in favour of Tesla and Elon Musk....
Audietron
Active Member
These are about Microsoft.... fined again and again... not a good comparison you made... comparing to another fraud company - lol.
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