Has anyone sued Tesla for FSD costs?

[edb49]

I took delivery of a Model 3 with the FSD box ticked on the first day of UK deliveries, 20th June 2019. Reservation made 18th October 2016, and I think my order speccing the FSD was made 1st May 2019. (Would need to check notes on that last thing.)

It's coming up to 4 years since I've had the car, and I feel like the claims made for FSD at the time were entirely unrealistic, and are not going to be delivered in my ownership of the car. The option was £5,800 when I bought it. (I appreciate others have paid more - but no one has really got what was promised!)

I've read these threads on the subject:

EAP and FSD price at UK

Hello my fellow Teslarions, I was wondering what is the point of having FSD at the price of £6800 when we cant use the full potential of it. Due to the EU/UK laws we have a lot of limitations on this feature, maybe if it was for £1000 for FSD and £500 for EAP Tesla might have more sales here...

teslamotorsclub.com

[UK centred discussion] The cat is out of the bag. True FSD will never happen for cars below HW4

Sorry for the semi clickbait, but I'll explain how this looks like an admission to me. During the latest earnings calls two days ago, Elon fully excluded a possible retrofit / upgrade from HW3 to HW4, either paid or free ! "The cost of retrofitting is quite significant so won't be economically...

teslamotorsclub.com

Self-driving cars UK Discussion

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/self-driving-revolution-to-boost-economy-and-improve-road-safety UK roads could see self-driving vehicles rolled out by 2025 thanks to new government plans – backed by £100 million – which prioritise safety through new laws and create thousands of new jobs in...

teslamotorsclub.com

FSD Thought

I have had a thought as to why the FSD cost has increased so much over the last year or two. My hunch is they cannot get full FSD with the current camera set up. I believe they will need additional cameras at the front of the car to enable safe left and right turns, most likely in the head light...

teslamotorsclub.com

What I'm wondering, is has anyone taken action (UK/England) against Tesla for selling FSD and then failing to deliver? I can see various mentions of it, but nothing concrete, and also quite a few things in other juristictions. I'm specifically interest in England.

Thanks very much in advance.

 

[Dilly]

I took delivery of a Model 3 with the FSD box ticked on the first day of UK deliveries, 20th June 2019. Reservation made 18th October 2016, and I think my order speccing the FSD was made 1st May 2019. (Would need to check notes on that last thing.)

It's coming up to 4 years since I've had the car, and I feel like the claims made for FSD at the time were entirely unrealistic, and are not going to be delivered in my ownership of the car. The option was £5,800 when I bought it. (I appreciate others have paid more - but no one has really got what was promised!)

I've read these threads on the subject:

EAP and FSD price at UK

Hello my fellow Teslarions, I was wondering what is the point of having FSD at the price of £6800 when we cant use the full potential of it. Due to the EU/UK laws we have a lot of limitations on this feature, maybe if it was for £1000 for FSD and £500 for EAP Tesla might have more sales here...

teslamotorsclub.com

[UK centred discussion] The cat is out of the bag. True FSD will never happen for cars below HW4

Sorry for the semi clickbait, but I'll explain how this looks like an admission to me. During the latest earnings calls two days ago, Elon fully excluded a possible retrofit / upgrade from HW3 to HW4, either paid or free ! "The cost of retrofitting is quite significant so won't be economically...

teslamotorsclub.com

Self-driving cars UK Discussion

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/self-driving-revolution-to-boost-economy-and-improve-road-safety UK roads could see self-driving vehicles rolled out by 2025 thanks to new government plans – backed by £100 million – which prioritise safety through new laws and create thousands of new jobs in...

teslamotorsclub.com

FSD Thought

I have had a thought as to why the FSD cost has increased so much over the last year or two. My hunch is they cannot get full FSD with the current camera set up. I believe they will need additional cameras at the front of the car to enable safe left and right turns, most likely in the head light...

teslamotorsclub.com

What I'm wondering, is has anyone taken action (UK/England) against Tesla for selling FSD and then failing to deliver? I can see various mentions of it, but nothing concrete, and also quite a few things in other juristictions. I'm specifically interest in England.

Thanks very much in advance.

I took delivery almost a year after you and paid £6800 to have it added. I think it was in May 2020. City streets was coming soon but EAP came about two weeks later at half the price for 95% of the features. Traffic light stop & start is pretty much worthless.
Mine goes in for its first MOT at the beginning of March.
I will part with it at some point before the warranty runs out in March 2024.
by that time I will either have FSD as promised or I will be visiting Trading Standards.
If I had to guess which, my money would be on the latter!

 

[edb49]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Do you think Trading Standards will have much bite? I would have thought it would be Small Claims Track at the County Court. I don't think Trading Standards will be very interested, it's more of a "legacy" problem now Tesla has changed their advertising claims/website wording.

 

[speedyranger74]

I took delivery almost a year after you and paid £6800 to have it added. I think it was in May 2020. City streets was coming soon but EAP came about two weeks later at half the price for 95% of the features. Traffic light stop & start is pretty much worthless.
Mine goes in for its first MOT at the beginning of March.
I will part with it at some point before the warranty runs out in March 2024.
by that time I will either have FSD as promised or I will be visiting Trading Standards.
If I had to guess which, my money would be on the latter!

I'm laughing because I'm in the same boat, but take it in March 2020

 

[Leytonstone]

My previous Model S had FSD purchased by the prior owner, not by me. Who gets the refund?

I'm not disagreeing, it's a complete scam.

 

[speedyranger74]

My previous Model S had FSD purchased by the prior owner, not by me. Who gets the refund?

I'm not disagreeing, it's a complete scam.

I doubt you paid for it.
When I tested selling mine... all tell me FSD not worth nothing but wanted

 

[Dilly]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Do you think Trading Standards will have much bite? I would have thought it would be Small Claims Track at the County Court. I don't think Trading Standards will be very interested, it's more of a "legacy" problem now Tesla has changed their advertising claims/website wording.

It’s the wording at the time of purchase that counts. It’s the downgrade to what is now “aspirational” that has some bearing.
You may be right about small claims. It will be one route or the the other.

 

[Durzel]

I'm still mulling over a claim. It's basically just a question of when I send the letter, I think, since it's patently obvious nothing is going to change between now and the 3 year anniversary of getting my car (end of March 2020).

I'm weighing up whether to ask for a proportional refund on FSD to drop me down to EAP (£2400 in my case), or the full monty refund of £5800. I'm leaning towards the latter in terms of making the claim, as its cleaner and has more weight, with perhaps a consideration to drop down to EAP during the mediation phase - if it comes to it.

Like others Tesla said "Coming later this year" for "Automatic driving on city streets" (aka FSD beta) when I ordered. I can evidence this. They had to know this wasn't a practical reality, particularly as they would be more acquainted with UNECE than customers would be, ergo in my opinion it was missold.

There is also the factor of HW4.0 (non retrofittable) whch is going to make our cars run - at best - a inadequate "full self driving beta" if/when that becomes available.

Basically I need to spend a weekend marshalling all of my arguments as to why FSD was a con when I bought it, and still is. Once I've done that I'll be sending a Letter of Action (which I assume will be ignored) and then following up with a small claim. Contrary to rumours Tesla do sometimes defend these and I suspect they will try to here too, but I feel confident in arguing my position.

 

[MrBadger]

Someone recently said that they used section 75 to successfully get a refund under their credit card. Not an option for me personally and probably not for others that either business or didn't use credit card as part of purchase, or did but car is in a different name to the card holder.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act - Which?

If you buy goods or services on your credit card, Section 75 can give you extra protection if things go wrong.

www.which.co.uk

 

[Sean.]

I'm weighing up whether to ask for a proportional refund on FSD to drop me down to EAP (£2400 in my case), or the full monty refund of £5800. I'm leaning towards the latter in terms of making the claim, as its cleaner and has more weight, with perhaps a consideration to drop down to EAP during the mediation phase - if it comes to it.

Am in a similar boat as you.

Paid £2,200 in June 2020 for the FSD upgrade. EAP was £4,700 at time of vehicle purchase in 2017. Tesla provided the HW2.5 to HW3.0 upgrade a month or so after the FSD was purchased through the app. But as we know no material FSD functionality has ever been delivered to any owners here.

Would have thought it’s a straightforward non-receipt of goods / services as described.

 

[Jason71]

by that time I will either have FSD as promised or I will be visiting Trading Standards.
If I had to guess which, my money would be on the latter!

Your money litterally is on the latter but I like how you are still holding out some hope that it will be former.
If you do manage to get your money back I have an interesting bridge based investment opportunity I would love to talk to you about...

 

[Durzel]

Am in a similar boat as you.

Paid £2,200 in June 2020 for the FSD upgrade. EAP was £4,700 at time of vehicle purchase in 2017. Tesla provided the HW2.5 to HW3.0 upgrade a month or so after the FSD was purchased through the app. But as we know no material FSD functionality has ever been delivered to any owners here.

Would have thought it’s a straightforward non-receipt of goods / services as described.

If there had been an upgrade path from HW3 to HW4 that would have been enough to justify FSD in my head, in spite of everything else that has happened (or not happened, to be more accurate).

I guess I always knew deep down that HW4 would not be retrofittable, and with Tesla chasing volume and electronic components still being somewhat scarce in the supply chain, they're not going to really push for retrofitting anyway. They want to sell new cars to people, including existing owners.

In that context FSD has basically paid for nothiing in the UK. I even had to pay out of my own pocket to fix the orange bloom on my repeater cameras (ok, I didn't have to buy them, but they certainly weren't done under warranty or as any kind of "FSD purchaser" concession).

 

[edb49]

I'm still mulling over a claim. It's basically just a question of when I send the letter, I think, since it's patently obvious nothing is going to change between now and the 3 year anniversary of getting my car (end of March 2020).

I'm weighing up whether to ask for a proportional refund on FSD to drop me down to EAP (£2400 in my case), or the full monty refund of £5800. I'm leaning towards the latter in terms of making the claim, as its cleaner and has more weight, with perhaps a consideration to drop down to EAP during the mediation phase - if it comes to it.

Like others Tesla said "Coming later this year" for "Automatic driving on city streets" (aka FSD beta) when I ordered. I can evidence this. They had to know this wasn't a practical reality, particularly as they would be more acquainted with UNECE than customers would be, ergo in my opinion it was missold.

There is also the factor of HW4.0 (non retrofittable) whch is going to make our cars run - at best - a inadequate "full self driving beta" if/when that becomes available.

Basically I need to spend a weekend marshalling all of my arguments as to why FSD was a con when I bought it, and still is. Once I've done that I'll be sending a Letter of Action (which I assume will be ignored) and then following up with a small claim. Contrary to rumours Tesla do sometimes defend these and I suspect they will try to here too, but I feel confident in arguing my position.

Hi Durzel,

I'm in a pretty similar place to you then. It is pretty messy to make a proportional claim because you are then assigning some value to different parts of EAP/FSD, and how do you evidence that?

I would expect Tesla's behaviour to be to initially say they're going to defend the claim, not enter mediation, and then to make an offer to settle the claim without prejudice with some kind of non-disclosure. I think what's probably undesirable for them is someone publishing their letter before action, court proceeding, etc.

The end result of the claim I'd expect is you get your £5800 back plus interest and costs, and Tesla remotely remove FSD including the EAP features. Looking at what was on the website at the time, you'd lose traffic light and lane changing:

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

web.archive.org

Autopilot (Included)

• Enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically for other vehicles and pedestrians within its lane.

Full Self-Driving Capability

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from motorway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the motorway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a car park. Really.

Coming later this year:

• Recognise and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
• Automatic driving on city streets.

 

[speedyranger74]

Or to transfer FSD license to the next car... which of course will have HW4

 

[edb49]

I think the appropriate legislation to bring a claim under is the Consumer Rights Act 2015 here:

Consumer Rights Act 2015

www.legislation.gov.uk

The appropriate parts I can see are:
11. Goods to be as described
19. Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about goods
24. Right to price reduction or final right to reject

The final right to reject could force Tesla to repurchase the car from you at a price to recognise the use you have had of it. Therefore I think for most people a price reduction is the most desirable thing, and it would be pretty clear to link this to the add-on cost for FSD.

Any other views?

 

[Sparkeur]

I, like others here, am completely behind the EV revolution started by Tesla and admire them for what they have achieved. I am also very bitter about having paid for FSD on my 2019 Model 3...I feel cheated. My view is that unless Tesla make some sort of gesture to people like us, there is a global class action just waiting in the wings.

 

[Durzel]

Hi Durzel,

I'm in a pretty similar place to you then. It is pretty messy to make a proportional claim because you are then assigning some value to different parts of EAP/FSD, and how do you evidence that?

I would expect Tesla's behaviour to be to initially say they're going to defend the claim, not enter mediation, and then to make an offer to settle the claim without prejudice with some kind of non-disclosure. I think what's probably undesirable for them is someone publishing their letter before action, court proceeding, etc.

The end result of the claim I'd expect is you get your £5800 back plus interest and costs, and Tesla remotely remove FSD including the EAP features. Looking at what was on the website at the time, you'd lose traffic light and lane changing:

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

web.archive.org

Autopilot (Included)

• Enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically for other vehicles and pedestrians within its lane.

Full Self-Driving Capability

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from motorway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the motorway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a car park. Really.

Coming later this year:

• Recognise and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
• Automatic driving on city streets.

Thanks.

It's actually worse than that because I ordered later than that capture, in 2020, and by that point Tesla were also telling me that "later this year" my car would find me in a car park:

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

web.archive.org

I'd actually forgotten about "Enhanced Summon". Another total lie.

 

[Zilla91]

Get the ambulance chasers who took VW to court over dieselgate onto them.

Give them a proper bloody nose for what they've been doing misleading customers for all these years

 

[Pink Duck]

Has FSD ever been advertised/sold without “subject to regulatory approval”?

It is frustrating to see the advancements happening in the US and repeatedly staring blankly at the floor here…

 

[edb49]

Thanks.

It's actually worse than that because I ordered later than that capture, in 2020, and by that point Tesla were also telling me that "later this year" my car would find me in a car park:

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

web.archive.org

I'd actually forgotten about "Enhanced Summon". Another total lie.

I wonder if it's broader than just the online configurator though? The legislation says:

Consumer Rights Act 2015

www.legislation.gov.uk

(1)Every contract to supply goods by description is to be treated as including a term that the goods will match the description.
(snip)
(4)Any information that is provided by the trader about the goods and is information mentioned in paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 to the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (SI 2013/3134) (main characteristics of goods) is to be treated as included as a term of the contract.

Gong to Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 it says:
(a)the main characteristics of the goods, services or digital content, to the extent appropriate to the medium of communication and to the goods, services or digital content;

To me, this is quite broad and encompasses more than just the configurator. For example, some quotations from this page:

Model 3 | Tesla

Model 3 has a 329+ mi range, 0-60 mph acceleration in 3.2 seconds and our most refined design and engineering ever.

web.archive.org

"Full Self-Driving Hardware"
"Every new Model 3 comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time."

"The Future of Autopilot"
"All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at a safety level we believe will be at least twice as good as the average human driver. "

Next to the latter, it has the famous 2016 video (mirror linked below) which has subsequently been taken down and found out to be a sham.

Tesla engineer testifies that 2016 video promoting self-driving was faked

The testimony was taken as evidence in a lawsuit against Tesla for a fatal 2018 crash involving former Apple engineer Walter Huang.

techcrunch.com

I also am wondering about how to interpret the legislation when considering what is part of the description Tesla made of the vehicle. All of the above is a slam dunk, I think, but I'm also wondering about statements (on Twitter, etc.) by Musk.