How likely is keyless theft 2023

[Pink Duck]

What I wrote was correct (but perhaps needed more exacting phrasing), what you referred to was an earlier security incident. Model X had Bluetooth LE communications in its keyfob from new, so they could retrospectively enhance security (as of March 2019). However, I was writing about it from timeframe of 2018+. Part of the software update for S keyfob (September 2019) was also to add in inactivity sleep modes to stop the passive signal from being emitted once idle, part of the hardware update at same time as encryption change from 40 to 80-bit.

 

[MrT3]

I force quit the Tesla app when I'm not going to be using the vehicle. Mainly to stop battery drain on my phone but it also stops the BLE communication with the car.

Even then, P2D is useful to protect the vehicle being driven off on those occasions when you quickly pop inside to grab something you forgot and the vehicle is unlocked etc.

 

[Adopado]

Even then, P2D is useful to protect the vehicle being driven off on those occasions when you quickly pop inside to grab something you forgot and the vehicle is unlocked etc.

Yes, I've often thought there is plenty of time for some sprightly young miscreant to get into the car before the auto lock kicks in!

 

[Jason71]

Just a PSA and this seems as good a place as any. if for some reason you park somewhere really tight and decide to get out via the passenger side then since the drivers door has not opened the car does not recognise that you left and the car does not lock.
In my case it was very tight airport space with a pillar where the drivers door was and I could not back in due to needing to get luggage out. fortunately I noticed when I walked away that the mirrors did not fold. I would have got a car unlocked notification after 15 minutes but still worth remembering. 15 minutes might be a long time in some places!

 

[FastLaneJB]

Tesla filed for FCC approval some years ago with UWB components so I guess they will move to them at some point.

Land Rover was forced to move to UWB because their old solution was actively being exploited, the same as some of the other manufacturers. Tesla's bluetooth implementation has a proof of concept attack against it but nothing in the wild yet, and the keycards are Java based so cannot be simply cloned either like standard RFID fobs.

I’d like to see them use the Digital Key 3.0 standard at some point so it also natively integrates into iOS and Android phones with UWB. One of the pluses on iOS is it’ll allow NFC to work as a backup for up to 5 hours after the phone dies so you could still hopefully get into your car.

I’m not sure Tesla will go this route though and the issue is most phones still don’t have UWB so they’d have to have a less secure fall back. Which means thieves would just try to exploit that less secure approach. Maybe though if you know all your phones support it, you could disable the less secure option on your car.

Are there any stats on if UWB is helping Land Rover? I suspect there’s a lot of keys being stolen instead these days for newer models.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Sorry, that's not really accurate. The last generation S and X don't use Bluetooth at all, the reason the keyfobs were updated was because the encryption used was only 40bit and could be cracked by modern computing within a few seconds so a key could then be cloned. The new fobs doubled this to 80bit. Read here for more Tesla rolls out Key Fob security update for Model S to address risks of cloning

Neither that, or Bluetooth LE used on 3, Y and the newest S and X have time of flight protection as far as I've read. Bluetooth specifically doesn't have a mechanism other than requiring a short time to get to the car, but it's already demonstrated that with optimised electronics this isn't a barrier to relay attacks. See Technical Advisory – Tesla BLE Phone-as-a-Key Passive Entry Vulnerable to Relay Attacks

There are other mitigations in the Tesla's key mechanism, the details of which aren't published, but I can see there certainly seems to be some use of GPS to determine locations and RSSI to range the distance from the car, but these are clearly not fully guaranteed.

UWB which is on some BMWs and the Apple CarKey stuff does support time of flight, but it needs the UWB hardware which is far from ubiquitous on phones at the moment. So as per NCC Groups advice, use Pin2Drive to mitigate the risk.

Thanks that’s a very informative post.

GPS is problematic for unlocking and starting as phone is probably in a house so it’s likely only using cell tower triangulation so it’ll show as near the car. However maybe as the car drives off it can detect after a while that the phone key it believes is in the car hasn’t moved and is still back home. In this instance the owner should have the following options they can pick in settings to control this situation:

1. Car pulls over automatically using FSD and calls police, alerts the occupants so they hopefully get out and don’t damage the car
2. Car, locks and drives the criminals to the nearest police station. Refusing to let them out until the car is opened from the outside after Tesla Vision has detected a police officer (And not a community support officer )
3. You don’t want the car back after it’s stolen so it takes over and drives itself into the nearest lake.

This one will need some careful beta testing to make sure there’s no false positives

 

[Regulo]

Missed one FastLaneJB.

4. Car locks, shorts out the HV battery and incinerates the b******s.

 

[Gnomeface]

I turned on P2D after leaving my car one day then going back to check because I couldn't remember hearing the horn beep. The car hadn't locked and still would not lock when I moved away again. Only then did my wife realise that she had left her own phone in the car, preventing it from locking. One of the snags of both having a phone key.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Missed one FastLaneJB.

4. Car locks, shorts out the HV battery and incinerates the b******s.

That ones saved for the holiday update later on

 

[Jason71]

I turned on P2D after leaving my car one day then going back to check because I couldn't remember hearing the horn beep. The car hadn't locked and still would not lock when I moved away again. Only then did my wife realise that she had left her own phone in the car, preventing it from locking. One of the snags of both having a phone key.

One of the Snags of having a wife

 

[WllXM]

According to some people who decompiled the latest iOS app update, there is now a future reference to using UWB for phone key.

Tesla App Updates - News Story

teslaappupdates.com

This would actually be great, but my understanding is that the car would need to support it, which is most likely not the case for our current models.
Maybe a hint to a great improvement on the new model 3 Highland….
But would be great if they found a way to make this retroactively work as to use iPhone CarKey features and have less Bluetooth issue of key not recognized & al.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Interesting. I think in theory should just be a matter of time until they start using UWB as they must realise that it adds to the security quite a bit while not being expensive to add either.

You are right, this might be a Highland feature.

 

[Zilla91]

According to some people who decompiled the latest iOS app update, there is now a future reference to using UWB for phone key.

Tesla App Updates - News Story

teslaappupdates.com

This would actually be great, but my understanding is that the car would need to support it, which is most likely not the case for our current models.
Maybe a hint to a great improvement on the new model 3 Highland….
But would be great if they found a way to make this retroactively work as to use iPhone CarKey features and have less Bluetooth issue of key not recognized & al.

The fact the language string related to that is "Upgrade your phone key performance" suggests they might have a trick up their sleeve for existing owners

 

[FastLaneJB]

The fact the language string related to that is "Upgrade your phone key performance" suggests they might have a trick up their sleeve for existing owners

Maybe but I suspect not. Not all phones have UWB so might be a suggestion to upgrade your phone to one that does so you can get UWB security.

 

[Zilla91]

Maybe but I suspect not. Not all phones have UWB so might be a suggestion to upgrade your phone to one that does so you can get UWB security.

It's been available since iPhone 11. We'll be reaching iPhone 15 in September so I suspect the vast majority of Tesla owners have a compatible handset.

Can't speak for Android though other than to suggest doing yourself a favour and getting an iPhone

 

[speedyranger74]

It's been available since iPhone 11. We'll be reaching iPhone 15 in September so I suspect the vast majority of Tesla owners have a compatible handset.

Can't speak for Android though other than to suggest doing yourself a favour and getting an iPhone

Iphone, never. From 2021 Samsung series S have UWB.

 

[MrT3]

This would actually be great, but my understanding is that the car would need to support it, which is most likely not the case for our current models.
Maybe a hint to a great improvement on the new model 3 Highland….

Yes it needs hardware support in the vehicles. Tesla has been submitting new parts for FCC certification over the last couple of years which have UWB capabilities so they will switch over at some point. There is no reason it needs to be part of a major upgrade though, Tesla could start fitting them as any point or may have already done so.

 

[Jason71]

It's been available since iPhone 11. We'll be reaching iPhone 15 in September so I suspect the vast majority of Tesla owners have a compatible handset.

Can't speak for Android though other than to suggest doing yourself a favour and getting an iPhone

For the record we android owners have had the option of nfc entry as a backup or alternative to bluetooth for years. Good to see iPhone owners catch up a bit.

 

[WllXM]

For the record we android owners have had the option of nfc entry as a backup or alternative to bluetooth for years. Good to see iPhone owners catch up a bit.

Well UWB has nothing to do with the NFC emulation capability….but it’s true I would welcome it too.
It has more to do with an unwillingness of Musk to offer more Apple integration than technical capabilities.

 

[Jason71]

Well UWB has nothing to do with the NFC emulation capability….but it’s true I would welcome it too.
It has more to do with an unwillingness of Musk to offer more Apple integration than technical capabilities.

I am aware of that. I was responding to your light hearted anti Android comment by pointing out that at present when it comes to vehicle entry switching to an iPhone would be a downgrade since I have an additional option for entry ( that I do use on occasion) that you do not. BTW I also have UWB on my Android.